questions about residue, PG vs. VG, possible filter, more stuff...

[SeanFromIthaca]

I don't know if it's my nature, or because I'm an amateur programmer or what, but I'm always tinkering, so if you're not into tinkering or reading long posts, feel free to ignore this and move along

I should also say, while some might think me a hand-wringing hypochondriac, since I don't really feel like quitting nicotine, I'd like to find out what the optimum conditions are for me to vape as much as I feel like, with as little negative effect as possible -- preferably zero effect (from the juice, I know there's gonna be side effects from nicotine itself)

anyway, last Saturday I got the flu, and my throat was on fire to the point that I couldn't even vape 0mg juice -- I could do straight glycerin, but even that was a little harsh, so I started worrying that there was something more damaging to vaping than I had previously thought

for a little backstory -- in early October when I first started using the 'Vaporstar' for vaporizing actual tobacco I loved it so much I wanted to make sure it wasn't too good to be true, so to test the difference between what my lungs were getting with smoking vs. the Vaporstar, I used a brand new pair of socks -- stark white, never worn, never washed -- loaded up the bowl on the Vaporstar with tobacco, and instead of vaping it, actually lit it with the lighter and put the sock on the mouth end of the .... and sucked the smoke through the sock, then I did the same thing but vaped it this time (using their patented little metal bowl cover that keeps the tobacco from burning) -- only thing is, when I actually combusted the tobacco I only could manage a couple of hits because even though I wasn't inhaling, it was just nasty -- but when I vaporized it I did the full bowl of tobacco

then I compared the two socks -- whereas the vaporized full bowl of tobacco only left a very faint yellow-green circle where the sock covered the mouth hole on the ...., the two or three hits of combusted tobacco left a very dark disgusting reddish brown splotch you could smell from across the room... so right away I knew there was a HUGE difference in terms of what my lungs were taking in when I inhaled smoke vs. vaporizing (again, actual tobacco, not ejuice)

turned out after a few weeks of using the Vaporstar I realized I was coughing up little tiny flecks of unvaporized tobacco that were tiny enough that they were falling through the screen and getting sucked into my lungs, so I decided to look for an even better way to get my nicotine...

so flash forward six weeks, had my ecig for a month, and even though I can tell that it's even better for me than vaporizing actual tobacco with the Vaporstar, it still feels like I'm messing my lungs up a bit, and I'm trying to figure out why -- after a few days here and there of sore throat or shortness of breath and inability to feel like I could get a full breath, this flu I just got last Saturday finally brought all of it to a head

being that it was Tuesday (earlier) and I started getting sick Saturday night, my throat wasn't as bad as it was, and I wasn't coughing up nearly as much phlegm, but I couldn't help noticing that after a huge coughing fit I felt like I could breathe PERFECT, and then a few minutes later I'd take a hit off my ecig and suddenly I'd feel a little clogged -- and I'd end up coughing more... it seemed to happen more with juices that were 100% VG than 100% PG, so I decided to do a test similar to the one I mentioned earlier where I compared smoke vs. vapor

this time, instead of a new sock, I just used a cotton pad -- those things girls use to take their makeup off -- I got a big pen, took all the guts out of it, put the cotton pad on one end and put a rubber band on it to hold it in place, then I took 7 HUGE slow draws off some 100% PG juice, blowing each very slowly through the pen with the cotton pad on the opposite end, took the pad off, put a new one on, and did the same thing but with 100% VG juice and compared them

there was no discoloration whatsoever, despite the VG juice being brown (so that's cool), but there was a little wet spot on both, but only on one side of the cotton pad (didn't go through the pad more than 1/3 or 1/2way) -- so, not nearly as much as I thought there might be judging by how much vapor I was blowing through

to me this meant the cotton pad was too thick to really judge the results, so I did the same thing with both juices that I just did with the cotton pads, but this time I used one square of 2-ply toilet paper -- and did 5 hits apiece instead of 7, and the results were much more pronounced

both squares had a spot of what looked like moisture on them, but the one for the PG juice was less than half the size of the one from the VG -- touching it with my finger and then rubbing my thumb and finger together I could tell it wasn't moisture, it was oily! so that's a little strange, since I've heard from some people that we're exhaling water vapor.. the other strange thing was, I watched Conan and by the end of the show it had all evaporated! you couldn't tell there had been anything on either square of TP... so it was all gone after about 20 minutes

so on one hand I'm a little concerned that five large hits leaves that much oily residue, because five big hits is maybe a drop, and I do probably 3-4ml a day -- so that's as much as 80 drops...

on the other hand, it seems heartening that it all disappears after a few minutes (would this happen in your lungs as well?)

I know people are gonna say all of this seems silly to them because nobody worried about this stuff when they were smoking... well, when I was smoking I didn't have much choice -- my two options were smoke and die a slow death, or quit and fight it my whole life... and remember that e-juice can effect each individual differently, so why shouldn't a person try to find a way to make vaping as impact-free for myself as possible, and if they can help anyone or get help along the way, that's partly what this forum is for! I'm getting defensive, but I just don't want to get a bunch of flak for being a little priss or whatever...

the main point of this post is:

1. is it everyone's experience that VG is more 'oily' than PG
2. do you notice more that VG seems to clog your lungs than PG? (not asking people with PG allergies)
3. is it possible most of the residue left in your lungs from vaping evaporates?
4. does anyone know how effective lungs are at removing oily residue (probably a LOT easier than tar and ash....)
5. are there any more scientific studies out there people have done that address these same issues?
6. has anyone ever used a filter on their ecig? (I know people are probably gonna laugh at that one... not me)

like I said before, I want as close to zero impact from vaping as I can get -- ideally, I'd love as much flavor as possible and as much vapor as possible, and I'd like to vape ALL day if I feel like it, but I don't like much throat hit (unless I'm drinkin...) -- so with those preferences, until I came across the sense of getting clogged by VG I felt like my best option was 100% VG juices with double or triple flavor, and relatively low (8 or 12mg) nicotine

but if VG is so much more oily and cloggy than PG, and lungs don't get rid of it very well, I might have to stick with PG, which has way more throat hit than I like, and dries me out like crazy...

so anyway, thanks for reading, and if you have any insight into the six questions I asked above, please let me know -- oh and here's another:

7) if one DID use a filter, would there be any way to filter just the oily vape and let the nicotine through? probably too much to ask, but just askin...

again, thanks for readin

 

[rolygate]

The basic question you seem to be asking is, "How to minimize any bad effects of vaping?". That's fair enough - why not? Sure, cigarettes are 1,000 times more dangerous, maybe more, but there is nothing worse than an ex-smoker, as anybody knows; and unfortunately that's what we all are!

I think there are three issues:
1. Find the right mix, for you, of PG/VG - or 100% of either.

2. Make sure you find a brand/manufacturer of the base VG or PG that suits you, there are differences in type and quality even if you get "100% VG" for example. There are several different ways of making VG, and that will apply to all materials.

3. Using the minimum amount - or even none - of flavors, since they probably have the greatest potential to cause issues.

So whatever route you choose, including a combination of 'risk reduction' choices, you have to try different brands and different versions, both alone and in combination.

Several things stand out from your post: if you have some sort of chest reaction to vaping, then the first thing to do is try some flavorless base liquids, of different types, to see if the problem is related to one type or brand of base. Next, double- or triple-flavor is going to be jacking up the main ingredient that is likely to cause problems. You'd need to first find a well-tolerated base liquid, then add a well-tolerated flavor to that, to have any idea of what is causing any problem in the first place. After that, you could think about doubling the flavor percentage. Some flavors will obviously cause problems for some people - like cinnamon, dark-colored flavors, strong vanilla etc. Other flavors might only affect a few people and you might be one of them.

To reply to your Q's:
1. Is it more oily? To me it just feels 'less harsh' than PG. If that's because it's 'more oily', then OK.
2. My lungs are super-sensitive, I sometimes got bronchitis from 8 cigs a day, and almost always if I smoked 10 or more. PG is a bit harsh for me, VG is no problem at all. I might cough a couple of times a day, no more. Nothing much comes up - usually nothing at all in fact. But it needs to be said here that the brand of VG/eliquid base could be critical, I use one that is known for its quality.
3. No doubt the lungs expel some materials with the water vapor that is constantly exhaled; and some is absorbed by the lungs; and some might be coughed up. I doubt if any 'coating' is left on the lung tissue, as with the tar from smoking. There's nothing in ecig vapor to do that - with the exception of some flavors, perhaps. Both PG and VG are metabolised by the body as I believe they are carbohydrates or precursors, meaning they are broken down and absorbed.
4. As #3.
5. No. Very little research has been done on ecigs, and only the cheapest / easiest to study issues have been briefly and inefficiently looked at. A proper study would cost at least $200k and nobody wants to pay since there are no benefits to the trade or the community at present. In the future, when ecigs are the norm instead of tobacco cigs, that will probably change. There is a basic study of ecig vapor about to start, and even that's costing $75k.
6. The trouble with filters is they handle smoke well but water vapor poorly. We don't actually know what ecig vapor consists of because it has never been studied at all*. It is reasonable to assume that there is a large percentage of water vapor, though, and this will collect in a filter and make it soggy. If you could come up with a way around that, then yes, filtration is possible. There must be a solution of course. It's a cost/aggro/time input vs benefit thing, if someone thinks the benefit outweighs the trouble making and using a filter, then no doubt they'll design / make / use one. Personally I see no point to it since you're talking about water vapor + VG / PG + flavors + nicotine, there's nothing in that mix to create major problems, except badly-chosen flavors. You're already 1,000 times or more safer than tobacco (in all probability) so why worry too much? With the caveat of course that you MUST choose a base liquid that causes you no problems and then add a flavor that causes you no problems. Your issues will be different from those experienced by others.

* As far as I am aware, nobody has ever analysed ecig vapor. The only researchers who commented in any way on the constituents of vapor were Laugesen and/or Bullen and there is a quote somewhere on the Health NZ website by Laugesen (I think), to the effect that "...the vapor is mostly PG" (my wording, from memory).

That statement was made 'in passing' and is not to be taken as a definitive statement in any way, at least as far as I can see. In fact it may well be that the vapor is mainly water and the statement itself would still not be factually incorrect as they did not analyse the vapor and only commented for the sake of comprehensiveness. It might be 75% water or 75% PG (or VG of course, as appropriate). Or whatever. It's probably safe to say it contains water, PG/VG, flavor and nicotine, the last two in minute amounts - but the proportions of each are completely unknown at this stage.