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Questions on My DIY NET

Discussion in 'Liquid Extraction From Tobacco' started by Cullin Kin, Dec 30, 2014.

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  1. Cullin Kin

    Cullin Kin Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 28, 2014
    The 3Oh!3, Colorado
    Herro DIY NET'ers...

    After having a major success with 3 of my DIY e-liquids, I delved full bore into DIY NET'ing today and I have a couple questions. I read about this 'Kirby' or 'Kurt' method online where you mix 1 cup tobacco, 1 cup VG, and ½ cup vodka and let it sit for 30-45 days. Then you take the jar with the mix and put it in boiling water, keeping the jar closed lol, to kill off all of the nicotine in the NET.

    My questions are:

    1) Is this the cold maceration method I keep hearing about?

    2) If not, will this method work? Or will it be something nasty... lol

    3) Will the boiling method kill off all of the nicotine?

    4) Do you guys find pure or flavored tobacco's to be better?

    5) Are there any negatives associated with different processes that I should be aware of?

    I've got plenty of tobacco, vodka, and VG leftover as I only did a quarter batch of what the recipe called for just so I didn't waste a whole bunch of supplies just incase it comes out horrible.

    If you guys could provide specific links to some of the best *easy* processes for extracting this wonderful flavor, I would be more than appreciative!

    Thanks for taking the time to read and respond!

    Vape Happy,
    Cullin Kin
     
  2. Bagazo

    Bagazo Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 19, 2009
    This seems to be the method posted by Kirbysmusclecar here.

    No, cold maceration does not involve heat at any point. It is really just room temperature maceration and filtration.

    I have not used it but I don't see why it would end up being nasty. YMMV.

    That is a good question. Wish I had a better answer but the lit that I have seen seems to indicate that most, if not all, the nicotine will be degraded.

    This would be a matter of taste.

    I don't think that there are negatives in general. Maybe some processes give certain people a better result but that brings us right back to it depending on what you are looking for.
     
  3. Cullin Kin

    Cullin Kin Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 28, 2014
    The 3Oh!3, Colorado
    1) Awesome! Thank you very much. :) For the cold maceration question, I was more asking about the process before boiling. I'm pretty sure the boiling is purely to kill off the nicotine and not part of the flavor process? I don't know though lol. So is the process before boiling the cold maceration?

    2) What method do you use?

    3) Perfect. I vape 0mg juice, sometimes bumped to 1.5mg/mL so I need to be sure there is no nicotine when I'm done. :)

    4) I mean, when I mix the e-liquid at the end of everything I will definitely play with vanilla's, custards, and caramels, but for the process would flavored tobacco interfere at all?

    5) Ooh okay! So is there anything that I should be worried about getting into my ejuice that should not be vaped? Or is that all removed through filtration?

    Thank you for all of your help, I really appreciate it!
     
  4. Bagazo

    Bagazo Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 19, 2009
    Yes that would be a cold maceration before boiling.

    My goal is the buzz (alkaloids), so I just do a quick cold maceration and filtering.

    I'd like to give you a definite answer but the more I look into it the more it seems like boiling PG (188.2 °C) is too low when compared to the decomposition temp of nicotine (247°C) but boiling VG (290 °C) should do the trick.

    Here is an interesting test done by another member. Effects of Heat on Nicotine Degradation

    He only got 10% reduction in nic after 8 hours at 175ºF(79.44ºC). Since the method you posted involves a water bath, you will never get to 247ºC.

    Other members seem to use flavored tobaccos with no problems.

    No not everything is removed through filtration. NETs are known to gunk up atomizers quickly. IMHO NETs are a step away from safer nic consumption. While a whole lot better than smoking, they are still filled with many unknowns.
     
  5. Cullin Kin

    Cullin Kin Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 28, 2014
    The 3Oh!3, Colorado
    Awesome, thank you for all of your help! Well, maybe I'll try to kill off as much nicotine as I can, then use the NET flavoring as my nic juice instead of the 100mg nic juice I already have. Thanks again!
     
  6. Bagazo

    Bagazo Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 19, 2009
    I've seen others say they use NETs at 5-10% of their e-juice.

    When I saw that you vape 1.5mg/ml, that very same thought came to mind.

    I use 30mg of nic in every gram of tobacco to do my calculations. Assuming you use 2 ml of pg and/or vg to extract 1 gram of tobacco and you get 100% recovery (just to play it safe) that would be 15mg/ml. Using that at 10% would give you the 1.5mg/ml that you are after even without degrading the nic.

    Rough numbers but I think they get the idea across.
     
  7. Cullin Kin

    Cullin Kin Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 28, 2014
    The 3Oh!3, Colorado
    They totally do. That should be perfect! So would you be willing to tell me about the 'quick cold maceration' that you do? Waiting a month and a half can be done, but I'd rather have it sooner!
     
  8. Bagazo

    Bagazo Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 19, 2009
    I just soak my tobacco in pg for an hour. Press everything through a syringe with a large needle. I then put a small bit of cotton into the cone that attaches the needle to the syringe, load the liquid back into the syringe and place it in a caulking gun to keep constant pressure, tightening things up every so often, and as soon as the plunger bottoms out, I'm done.

    I use it straight so the idea of something that tastes too strong unless it's reduced to less than 15% has no appeal for me.

    If I were you I would use VG and a microwave to get past the 247ºC mark.

    ETA: Just realized that I didn't really answer your question. I see no reason for waiting a month and a half. You're trying to figure out what works for you. Split whatever you have into 3 or 4 batches, if you have enough, and try a quick maceration like the one I describe, with one. Let the others sit while you test out the first. As you run into each succesive batch you will find out if things are worth the wait. I'm willing to bet that there has to be a point where the return on the wait just isn't worth it. Nobody can tell you where that will be except your taste buds.
     
  9. Cullin Kin

    Cullin Kin Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 28, 2014
    The 3Oh!3, Colorado
    Any way you could illustrate this a little for me with some Google images? I just don't think I'm following with the whole syringe process.

    So from the mix with the tobacco and PG you draw the liquid into the syringe and filter it at the same time with cotton in the cone of the needle? Then you do it again?

    Sorry buddy, I'm just not quite clear on that part.

    As for the VG and the microwave, should I start the cold maceration over again with VG? Or when I'm done, take the NET liquid and mix it with VG to raise the boiling point, then throw it in the microwave to kill off some of the nicotine?

    Sorry to ask so many questions. I really appreciate all of your help.

    Also, I just started another batch of NET with PG and a cap full of vodka. I put the tobacco in a jar, filled it with PG to just above the tobacco. Then added the vodka and mixed thoroughly.

    Let me know when you can! Thanks again!
     
  10. Bagazo

    Bagazo Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 19, 2009
    I will try to explain it a bit more but this method doesn't really make the cleanest NET even by DIY standards.

    I just place my tobacco and PG in a baby food jar and let it sit for an hour. I then take the plunger out of a syringe, place it needle down in another baby food jar. I then spoon the mix into the syringe place the plunger and press.

    When done I pull the plunger out. It can be difficult because the tobacco really makes a tight plug. I then use a metal rod to work the tobacco plug out.

    Once the syringe is empty again I remove the needle, make sure it is clear (unplugged) and place a small amount of cotton in the needle cone.

    I then draw the extracted liquid from the first baby food jar using a different syringe and needle. I transfer the extract into the first syringe, through the small hole in front, and place the needle with the cotton in the cone on it. This then gets placed in a caulking gun, using washers to keep the syringe from slipping though the gun's opening. Appply pressure and prop it up so it is laying on its side and the liquid drips into clean baby food jar.

    As for the VG and microwave, I would start a new batch.

    I think that at this early stage of experimenting it is best to keep batches small. I have been doing 1g of tobacco at a time. I guess I have the advantage of not having to let things sit for weeks. You can draw and filter from the batches you have already mixed up, maybe once a week, to see how things progress and if it is to your liking while at the same time doing mini batches with quicker methods to see which one works best for you.
     
  11. Lastlokean

    Lastlokean Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 12, 2010
    Red Wing, MN
    I'm just gonna chime in here...

    I do an ice cold ethanol extraction of tobacco. I then filter off the ethanol and evaporate it down to a nice amber syrup.

    I then dissolve this amber syrup in minimal room temperature ethanol. Freeze it, and then filter it while its still cold. Evaporate the result to get even cleaner amber syrup. The freezing will cause the less soluble waxes, fats and plant nastiness to crystallize, while the much more soluble alkaloids stay in solution.... You can repeat this many times to get a very clean product, however there are some loses each time.

    I have personally found this stuff to be quite potent and delicious. I rarely use commercial nicotine anymore and I almost never use any extra flavoring.

    IMO, There is little reason to use heat or extended time soaks of tobacco, it will only pull more sugars, chlorophyll, tar and plant junk. After a relatively short and cold extraction with any polar solvent you will have the majority of the alkaloids and flavor compounds... In the name of efficiency and purity you are better off doing more pulls with less much solvent and for less time, instead of doing 1 long pull.

    Why people pull directly into PG / VG is beyond me... It isn't easy to concentrate, or work with in any way/shape/form... Every time I've messed with that kind of stuff I get super gunked up coils and a nasty result...

    With regards to a few of your questions, I do not see how boiling off the ethanol with a solution of PG/Water left behind will cause the reliable removal of all the nicotine / tobacco alkaloids. Certainly if the alkaloids were in the free-base form, however in the natural plant state they are 80-90% salts with very high boiling points, so they will stay in the solution. When heating it in such a way most of what you will be losing are the volatile terpenes that are responsible for much of the tobacco odor and flavor... I think if you don't want any tobacco alkaloids stay away from tobacco..

    Anyway, if you start with a known amount of tobacco, and you assume the worst case of 100% extraction efficiency, you can easily come up a safe approximation of how strong you are mixing juice, in order to shoot for the 1.5 mg/ml range seems quite possible while still producing a very flavorful tobacco vape.
     
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  12. etsh

    etsh Senior Member

    Sep 27, 2014
    egypt
  13. barjc

    barjc Full Member

    Jun 7, 2015
    As it evaporates?
    A cold or hot?
     
  14. Two_Bears

    Two_Bears Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 4, 2015
    Northern Arizona
    I DIY and I am not a fan of the HEAT extraction method you described and I don't use vodka at all.

    I take the stuff I want to vape and make a 70/30 70℅ VG 30% PG. I start out with 8-10 mg per every gram of the item to be vaped. Then combine them in an airtight container and store in a dark place. I take the jar out and stir. About every 10 days to get the stuff on top pushed down so all of it is completely under liquid for extraction.

    After 60 days or more some people go 90 days filter and bottle the eluquid.

    I am not a fan of the HEAT extraction method you get some tastes that you don't want like chlorophyll.
     
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