Quick question re: ohms on dual coils

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Katya

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Hehe; you're not stupid, hon. I've been here, reading and posting, almost every day, for three years. I've learned a lot from helpful vets who spent countless hours explaining things to me. :facepalm: Trust me. :D

I tried dual coils when they were all the rage here, about a year, a year and a half ago. I didn't care for them. I'm now strictly in the "one burner, one pot" camp.

What kind of vv battery do you own (sorry if I missed that info)? If it's eGo threaded like eGo-C Twist or Spinner, I highly recommend BCC (bottom changeable coils) eGo clearomizers, like Kanger T3 or Evod (same concept, just a bit smaller). They offer the good taste of atomizers (no filler), the convenience of cartomizers (no dripping), and, best of all, when the coil becomes dirty, you just replace it with a new one. The dirty coils can be cleaned by a simple soak in vodka (or PGA--if you can get it) and reused several times.

When I used them, I ran my DC cartomizers on 3.7v. I tried them on 4.8 v also. I liked the extra vapor, but they always seemed too cool for me, and I didn't have a battery that would deliver more than 5 v. Of course, if your battery can deliver 6 or 7 volts, but can't deliver the amps... never mind. ;)
 
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Kable

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No I didnt. I hate math with a passion. If it were explained in plain words then Id definitely be all for reading up on Ohms law and I think thats where the confusion lies. You understand it perfectly but someone whos more literary inclined like Faylool and I arent going to get mathematical formulas and equations .

As to what I posted, Thats what Ive heard repeated many times on these forums for going on 4 years now. Ive also vaped a 2ohm dual coil at 6 volts using the extremely basic math I mentioned. Maybe thats part of the reason why I prefer single coils but it didnt "pop" or have any burnt taste to indicate it was overheating like a single coil would if it was over-voltage.

Just out of curiosity what do you personally vape dual coils at on a VV device? That would go a long way to clearing up the misinformation without sounding like your chiding someone for being stupid.

I can assure you neither of us are, our brains are just wired differently.

If I sound frustrated its not directed at you at all. Ive been vaping on and off for a long time now and was even a vendor for a brief period but any conversation involving math vexes me to no end.

The fuzzy math you posted earlier, and I've seen posted on here many times (add 2 to ohms to get volts ~ 8 watts) does get you close. And doubling the ohms for dc works, too, because both coils are double the equivalent resistance, and both see the full voltage from your device. So essentially, your running two coils each at ~8 watts using your fuzzy math. In your specific example of the 2 ohm DC, you're actually getting 9 watts on both coils, or 18 watts total @ 3 amps, provided your device can supply it.
 
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Faylool

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I'll read later! Thanks for coming in. I already use single coils. Im more of follower when it comes to anything technical and that was what was recommended way back. Re: my having learned that dual coils actually saves power from a smart person I can't remember source but it was over the phone....ha ha Doesn't that carry more weight than posts? Something about"counter intuitive" but that also might have been on a different coil scenario. I just keep plugging along but sometimes we get confounded, ARE confounded and don't know it or just misinformed and don't know it so on and so forth.


Faylool and Zapped; did you read the link that Kable posted, earlier? You may find it helpful.

Are you familiar with Ohm's law? There really isn't a "simple explanation" to how it works... DC have been discussed here before, in length, you can use the advanced search or just google it. If you don't feel like studying the subject, I like this explanation by John D in CT:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/313846-carto-question-3.html#post6657930

Or just switch to single coils. :)

And remember, wattage (heat, power) = voltage (of your battery, in volts) squared divided by resistance (of your atomizer, in ohms).

Most people like it somewhere between 4-8.5 watts.

Happy vaping.
 

wv2win

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Basically, you're vaping two 3.0 Ω cartomizers at the time; lots of vapor, but not more warmth. You're just draining your battery (and using up your juice) at double speed. :D

I definitely cannot agree that there isn't more warmth. I've been doing this quite a while. Using 1.5 ohm dual coil cartos at 12.2 - 12.4 watts or 4.2 - 4.5 volts definitely provides warmer vapor. I use to use 2.8 ohm single coil 801 attys & cartos at about 5 volts. I can get the same or a little warmer vapor using 1.5 ohm dual coils at 4.2 - 4.5 volts. And I don't burn the eliquid. It does use a little more eliquid. And instead of getting 21 - 24 hours on a battery charge, I now get about 17 - 19 hours on a charge which is no big deal since I charge my PV each night and I'm still good for the whole next day and night.
 
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Katya

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I'll read later! Thanks for coming in. I already use single coils. Im more of follower when it comes to anything technical and that was what was recommended way back. Re: my having learned that dual coils actually saves power from a smart person I can't remember source but it was over the phone....ha ha Doesn't that carry more weight than posts? Something about"counter intuitive" but that also might have been on a different coil scenario. I just keep plugging along but sometimes we get confounded, ARE confounded and don't know it or just misinformed and don't know it so on and so forth.

Don't throw away your dual coils. They work; as long as you understand how they work, you can use them successfully. They do provide plenty of vapor and I know a lot of people who like them. But Ohm's law cannot be defied. ;) If you like a lot of vapor, they can't be beat. If you want power (heat), you really need to use them on higher voltages than you would use with a single coil atomizer with comparable resistance. That's it in a nutshell.

Yeah, there's plenty of misinformation around. Dual coils drain your batteries faster and vaporize more juice than single coils--that's a fact. Remember, you're working with two heating coils per cartomizer, not one, even though each coil is relatively high resistance (3 Ω).

Good luck and happy vaping. :)
 
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Faylool

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Glad these posts showed up. I just happen to get dual coil cartos with the purchase of a glass tank from High Desert. At least it said dual coil on the description of many like my tank. My tank didn't happen to have a discription on it but I got two cartos. Any way to tell if they are dual coil? I have an ohm reader. What will it read if it's a dual coils 1.5. 3.00?
Remember I am irreversibly brain dead with zero memory function whenit comes technical thing. In my defense I am a very good artist
 
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Katya

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Glad these posts showed up. I just happen to get dual coil cartos with the purchase of a glass tank from High Desert. At least it said dual coil on the description of many like my tank. My tank didn't happen to have a discription on it but I got two cartos. Any way to tell if they are dual coil? I have an ohm reader. What will it read if it's a dual coils 1.5. 3.00?
Remember I am irreversibly brain dead with zero memory function whenit comes technical thing. In my defense I am a very good artist

There's no telling how many coils are in the carto without taking it apart; DC carto's resistance will read 1.5Ω on your multimeter if you have two 3.0 Ω coils inside. However, there aren't many single-coil cartomizers (filler-type) that come in such low resistances (those would fry very quickly), so my bet is they are dual coils.

Got a picture? Link?
 
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UncleChuck

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Really the easy way to think of it, is that you are powering two separate cartomizers, each one at 3ohm. In short, dual coils can take (an IMHO require) a lot more voltage than a single coil of the same resistance.

If you had a single coil 1.5ohm carto, running it much above 3.7v or so will generally result in burned juice or filler.

With a 1.5ohm dual coil carto (overall carto rez) the same voltage will be anemic compared to a single coil. In order to take advantage of the fact that you have two coils, you need to pump in a lot more power. Dual coils at 13-15 watts are vapor monsters. Most all devices will require stacking batteries to be able to reach that wattage, single battery in VW generally top out at around 11 watts.

A dual coil 1.5 ohm carto will give more vapor than a single coil 3ohm carto, but it will not give more vapor than a single coil 1.5ohm carto. This is at moderate power (6-10 watts or so) when you get into higher power, a single coil 1.5ohm will just start to burn juice and/or filler. Where as higher power will work great with a dual coil carto.

A single coil will outperform a dual coil is most cases, unless you can power a dual coil at higher wattage. And again, most all current VW devices (I'm not including evolve based mods here as I don't have experience with them) cannot get any higher than 11 watts or so in single battery mode, you need to stack if you want to run 11+ watts.
 

wv2win

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Really the easy way to think of it, is that you are powering two separate cartomizers, each one at 3ohm. In short, dual coils can take (an IMHO require) a lot more voltage than a single coil of the same resistance.

If you had a single coil 1.5ohm carto, running it much above 3.7v or so will generally result in burned juice or filler.

With a 1.5ohm dual coil carto (overall carto rez) the same voltage will be anemic compared to a single coil. In order to take advantage of the fact that you have two coils, you need to pump in a lot more power. Dual coils at 13-15 watts are vapor monsters. Most all devices will require stacking batteries to be able to reach that wattage, single battery in VW generally top out at around 11 watts.

A dual coil 1.5 ohm carto will give more vapor than a single coil 3ohm carto, but it will not give more vapor than a single coil 1.5ohm carto. This is at moderate power (6-10 watts or so) when you get into higher power, a single coil 1.5ohm will just start to burn juice and/or filler. Where as higher power will work great with a dual coil carto.

A single coil will outperform a dual coil is most cases, unless you can power a dual coil at higher wattage. And again, most all current VW devices (I'm not including evolve based mods here as I don't have experience with them) cannot get any higher than 11 watts or so in single battery mode, you need to stack if you want to run 11+ watts.

My variable wattage PV provides 12.7 watts which is quite nice. A 1.5 ohm dual coil at 12.2 - 12.5 watts just puts out fuller and warmer vapor than a single carto at 3.7 volts.
 

sgenn99

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a quick question on this topic, and i'm hoping someone can help me here...

why would a dual coil cartomozer be beneficial? i tried them, at low and standard res., and the vapor prod/flavor doesn't come close to a standard or 3 ohm single coil carto. plus, as a previous poster stated, it uses more juice and battery life. maybe i'm missing something, but i don't see why they would be a better choice over single coil cartos if you're using variable voltage/wattage. can someone please 'splain?
 

el lobo furtivo

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a quick question on this topic, and i'm hoping someone can help me here...

why would a dual coil cartomozer be beneficial? i tried them, at low and standard res., and the vapor prod/flavor doesn't come close to a standard or 3 ohm single coil carto. plus, as a previous poster stated, it uses more juice and battery life. maybe i'm missing something, but i don't see why they would be a better choice over single coil cartos if you're using variable voltage/wattage. can someone please 'splain?

That's exactly why I first asked this question. I have a dozen or so 1.5 dual coils and I've been plugging along just fine with them but I've noticed my batteries not lasting very long. I just got some 3.0 single coils today. I'll tinker with them this weekend and see if there's a difference.
 

Katya

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a quick question on this topic, and i'm hoping someone can help me here...

why would a dual coil cartomozer be beneficial? i tried them, at low and standard res., and the vapor prod/flavor doesn't come close to a standard or 3 ohm single coil carto. plus, as a previous poster stated, it uses more juice and battery life. maybe i'm missing something, but i don't see why they would be a better choice over single coil cartos if you're using variable voltage/wattage. can someone please 'splain?

Sorry, I can't help you... As you can can see from previous posts, some people like them, others don't. I never had any luck with them. So, as with everything else in life, if you like it, use it. If you don't, don't bother. :)

There is no reason, on paper, at least, why they should be any better than single coils.
 

SoberSnyper

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I definitely cannot agree that there isn't more warmth. I've been doing this quite a while. Using 1.5 ohm dual coil cartos at 12.2 - 12.4 watts or 4.2 - 4.5 volts definitely provides warmer vapor. I use to use 2.8 ohm single coil 801 attys & cartos at about 5 volts. I can get the same or a little warmer vapor using 1.5 ohm dual coils at 4.2 - 4.5 volts. And I don't burn the eliquid. It does use a little more eliquid. And instead of getting 21 - 24 hours on a battery charge, I now get about 17 - 19 hours on a charge which is no big deal since I charge my PV each night and I'm still good for the whole next day and night.

Yes, you are getting more warmth but it has nothing to do with Ohm's Law. It is a function of where the coils are located. In a single coil carto, the coil is located near the bottom of the carto, with a dual coil carto, one coil is located near the bottom and the other coil is located further up the carto, so the vapor from the top coil has a shorter distance to travel, thus you have a warmer vape, but this has nothing to do with power(watts, ie. heat).

In your example above, on your dual coil at 1.5 ohm effective resistance (two 3 ohm coils in parallel) at 4.2 volts, you are getting 11.76 watts. (4.2vx4.2v/1.5ohms) Your current (amps) in this circuit is 2.8 amps. (4.2v/1.5ohms). Now here is the rub, half of the power(watts) and current(amps) is going through each coil, although each coil is seeing the full voltage drop(4.2v). So each coil is 3ohms, so 4.2v/3ohms=1.4amps through each coil and 4.2v x 4.2v /3ohms=6.16 watts through each coil.

In your single coil carto example above with a 2.8 ohm carto at 5 volts you wind up with a current of 5v/2.8=1.79amps and a wattage(power ie. heat) of 5v x 5v /2.8ohms = 8.93 watts.

So while the dual coil has more current(amps) and power(watts) in the circuit, in each individual coil, you have more power(or heat) in the single coil than in each of the coils in a dual coil. You will also use more battery life in a dual coil as you can see in the example above, 2.8 amps in the dual coil VS 1.79 amps in the single coil.
 
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SoberSnyper

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a quick question on this topic, and i'm hoping someone can help me here...

why would a dual coil cartomozer be beneficial? i tried them, at low and standard res., and the vapor prod/flavor doesn't come close to a standard or 3 ohm single coil carto. plus, as a previous poster stated, it uses more juice and battery life. maybe i'm missing something, but i don't see why they would be a better choice over single coil cartos if you're using variable voltage/wattage. can someone please 'splain?

See my previous post. In short, with a VV/VW device, there isn't really an advantage to dual coils over single coil. In fact, running a dual coil, can be a disadvantage depending on the amp limit of your device.
 
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wv2win

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Yes, you are getting more warmth but it has nothing to do with Ohm's Law. It is a function of where the coils are located. In a single coil carto, the coil is located near the bottom of the carto, with a dual coil carto, one coil is located near the bottom and the other coil is located further up the carto, so the vapor from the top coil has a shorter distance to travel, thus you have a warmer vape, but this has nothing to do with power(watts, ie. heat).

In your example above, on your dual coil at 1.5 ohm effective resistance (two 3 ohm coils in parallel) at 4.2 volts, you are getting 11.76 watts. (4.2vx4.2v/1.5ohms) Your current (amps) in this circuit is 2.8 amps. (4.2v/1.5ohms). Now here is the rub, half of the power(watts) and current(amps) is going through each coil, although each coil is seeing the full voltage drop(4.2v). So each coil is 3ohms, so 4.2v/3ohms=1.4amps through each coil and 4.2v x 4.2v /3ohms=6.16 watts through each coil.

In your single coil carto example above with a 2.8 ohm carto at 5 volts you wind up with a current of 5v/2.8=1.79amps and a wattage(power ie. heat) of 5v x 5v /2.8ohms = 8.93 watts.

So while the dual coil has more current(amps) and power(watts) in the circuit, in each individual coil, you have more power(or heat) in the single coil than in each of the coils in a dual coil. You will also use more battery life in a dual coil as you can see in the example above, 2.8 amps in the dual coil VS 1.79 amps in the single coil.

This sounds like a pretty good explanation. I think your explanation of the two coils being spread throughout the carto makes sense in providing fuller, warmer vapor, which is what I have experienced. You just need a PV that can provide the power to make it work. Most people seem to have small battery PV's and small amp switch regulators so they can't realize the benefit of the dual coils and just assume they don't work well. They aren't able to make a true comparison.
 

UncleChuck

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a quick question on this topic, and i'm hoping someone can help me here...

why would a dual coil cartomozer be beneficial? i tried them, at low and standard res., and the vapor prod/flavor doesn't come close to a standard or 3 ohm single coil carto. plus, as a previous poster stated, it uses more juice and battery life. maybe i'm missing something, but i don't see why they would be a better choice over single coil cartos if you're using variable voltage/wattage. can someone please 'splain?

I'm not sure of the real reason manufactures started making them, perhaps they just were trying to cheat and get a lot more power by throwing 2 coils in there, but didn't realize that a lot of people wouldn't have devices with enough power to truly take advantage of them.

The only logical reason I can think of for using a DC is to increase vapor output with high power vaping. You can only increase the heat of a single coil so much before you stop increasing vapor production. Think of it like a pot of boiling water on the stove. Water boils at a certain temperature, increasing the heat pumped into the pot will increase the speed at which the water boils, which will vaporize slightly more water.

But if instead of just increasing the heat to the pot, you add another burner and pot all together, this will literally double the amount of water being boiled/vaporized. Same thing goes with vaping juice, increasing the power of the coil only works to a certain extent to increase vapor production, after that point all you are doing is getting a hotter vape, and eventually burning juice.

But having two coils being powered, you double the surface area that is vaporizing juice. If your goal is to increase the amount of vapor, then it's all about surface area, more than it is just temperature. Instead of having two coils, you could also just use a much longer coil, or thicker wire, which will have the same effect of increasing surface area, and increased vapor production, assuming you keep the coil at the same temperature. The amount of voltage that a carto needs/can handle is NOT solely dependent on the resistance of the carto. Coil design has a big part to play in how much voltage to put into it, as a coil with the same resistance, but more surface area will require more voltage, and handle more voltage, even though the resistance is the same. A 2ohm coil might burn at 5 volts, but you could have a differently design coil that is also 2ohms, but doesn't burn until 8 volts. Yet another reason that having "suggested voltages" for certain resistances is meaningless.

You could build a 15 wrap coil, for example, which would increase resistance, but then you could use thicker wire for this coil in order to bring the resistance back down. So this 15wrap coil could be the same resistance as a coil made with 3 wraps of thin wire, but have five or six times the surface area, which is what will cause a huge increase in vapor production. Using two coils is just a different method to achieve the same goal, more surface area.

I don't know why this issue isn't addressed more by manufacturers, instead of selling dual coil cartos they should offer cartos with different surface area coils. Use a longer coil with more wraps, but with much thicker wire, will give you the same resistance but way more surface area. But, just like with dual coils, you still need to increase the power, because you'd have the same amount of power being spread over a larger surface area, which would mean loosing temperature. More power will get the temp back up. The best coil design for vapor production really depends on what you plan to power your coil with. If you are using an eGo battery, with a fixed voltage, using less surface area will be better, because the battery won't have enough power to take advantage of the increased surface area, and would perform worse with a higher surface area coil.

But with a VV/VW device, or any device that can provide a lot of power, higher surface area will work a lot better than simply adding more power to a coil with a lower surface area. If you are trying to build a water gun that shoots a powerful stream that goes a long distance, you need to take into account how much pressure you can supply to your water gun. If you can't supply much pressure (power to the coil) then you need to make the nozzle much smaller diameter to still maintain a fast flowing stream. But if you can supply a lot of pressure to the water gun, then you can make a bigger nozzle which will still shoot water out far and fast. But if you tried to use that larger nozzle on the water gun with less pressure, then your water stream would be terrible because it doesn't have enough pressure to take advantage of the additional water flow of the larger nozzle.

Using a dual coil carto on low powered devices is like having a large nozzle on your watergun, but without enough pressure to force enough water through at once. So performance suffers. You need to match the nozzle size to how much pressure you can supply, just like you need to match a carto design to what you plan to power it with, and it's not JUST ohms law that you need to take into account, because if ohms law is all you think about then you'll get confused when it comes to dual coil cartos, thinking that you are overpowering them when your not even powering them enough.
 
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SoberSnyper

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This sounds like a pretty good explanation. I think your explanation of the two coils being spread throughout the carto makes sense in providing fuller, warmer vapor, which is what I have experienced. You just need a PV that can provide the power to make it work. Most people seem to have small battery PV's and small amp switch regulators so they can't realize the benefit of the dual coils and just assume they don't work well. They aren't able to make a true comparison.

There are also many people with older lavatubes and other older VV devices that have a 2.5 amp limit on the switch. With this type of limit, you are not able to power the dual coil adequately. Which is why single coils are a better solution with those limitations.
 
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