Ramp up of wires ( clarification )

[greek mule]

I have not seen anywhere at the discussions in this forum a clarification for the correlation between ramp up of a wire alloy used at regulated mod and ramp up of the same wire alloy used at mech mod.I post it here and not at the wick and wire sub-forum because I think it is of general interest.For identical coils ( same ID,wire gauge,leg length and amount of wraps ) but made of different metal alloys,we have two different ramp up lists.Regulated mods:when we use the same amount of power to identical coils,the ramp up time is related to the heat capacity of the coil.The lower the heat capacity the faster ramp up of the coil.Example:kanthal A1,Nichrome N80,SS316L all three have ID 3 mm,awg 22,leg length 5 mm,5 wraps micro. Kanthal A1 heat first(heat capacity 77.07 mj/k) Nichrome heat second(heat capacity 87.66) and SS316L heat third(heat capacity 94.39 mj/k). Mech mods:Ramp up time is related to the heat capacity of the coil and the amount of current flowing through the wire,which is related to its resistance.Hence,for identical coils always,heat capacity plays a tiny role for the ramp up.Resistivity of each metal alloy is the major factor that define by using Ohm`s Law I=V/R the withdrawn amps.For identical coils (ID 3 mm,22 awg,leg length 5 mm,5 wraps micro,SS316L at 0.167 Ohm heat first pulling 25.14 Amps,Nichrome N80 at 0.242 Ohm heat second pulling 17.35 Amps and Kanthal A1 at 0.322 Ohm heat third pulling 13.04 Amps.

 

[bombastinator]

That’s because a given coil of a given type and size at a given voltage behave for useful intents and purposes identically in mech vs regulated mods. The only difference is that due to the nature of how batteries work the voltage of the mech mod reduces over time.

I think you’ve found a false data point. It happens.

There IS a difference in heating times between different metals, but those differences are also close to identical across mech vs regulated mods.

 

[Zakillah]

Comparing heat up times when using different power settings is kinda redundant.

Oh look I have this 20G build that heats up instantly...yeah, sure, you also need 100+ Watts for that to happen. Hilarious.

 

[zoiDman]

I have not seen anywhere at the discussions in this forum a clarification for the correlation between ramp up of a wire alloy used at regulated mod and ramp up of the same wire alloy used at mech mod.I post it here and not at the wick and wire sub-forum because I think it is of general interest.For identical coils ( same ID,wire gauge,leg length and amount of wraps ) but made of different metal alloys,we have two different ramp up lists.Regulated mods:when we use the same amount of power to identical coils,the ramp up time is related to the heat capacity of the coil.The lower the heat capacity the faster ramp up of the coil.Example:kanthal A1,Nichrome N80,SS316L all three have ID 3 mm,awg 22,leg length 5 mm,5 wraps micro. Kanthal A1 heat first(heat capacity 77.07 mj/k) Nichrome heat second(heat capacity 87.66) and SS316L heat third(heat capacity 94.39 mj/k). Mech mods:Ramp up time is related to the heat capacity of the coil and the amount of current flowing through the wire,which is related to its resistance.Hence,for identical coils always,heat capacity plays a tiny role for the ramp up.Resistivity of each metal alloy is the major factor that define by using Ohm`s Law I=V/R the withdrawn amps.For identical coils (ID 3 mm,22 awg,leg length 5 mm,5 wraps micro,SS316L at 0.167 Ohm heat first pulling 25.14 Amps,Nichrome N80 at 0.242 Ohm heat second pulling 17.35 Amps and Kanthal A1 at 0.322 Ohm heat third pulling 13.04 Amps.

Where the Clash seems to occur when the Alloy Type/Ramp-Up Time comparison is discussed is are we comparing Identical Coils at the Exact same Voltage?

Or are we comparing it to Identical Hits that we get from given Builds?

All the Math and Physical Properties are Great. And if the type of Hit one gets Isn't considered, then a conclusion based on Pure Numbers can be reached.

But that Isn't how Most people Vape. Or want to Vape.

 

[englishmick]

Where the Clash seems to occur when the Alloy Type/Ramp-Up Time comparison is discussed is are we comparing Identical Coils at the Exact same Voltage?

Or are we comparing it to Identical Hits that we get from given Builds?

All the Math and Physical Properties are Great. And if the type of Hit one gets Isn't considered, then a conclusion based on Pure Numbers can be reached.

But that Isn't how Most people Vape. Or want to Vape.

Yeah, I spent 40 hours a week for 50 years living by the numbers. When I vape I just want to relax. I randomly tweak stuff sometimes to see if it gets me a better vape. I know how ohms work, anything beyond that is more than I can be bothered with.

If people want to get into the weeds with that stuff I wish them luck. That's the good thing about hobbies, there's a shoe to fit every foot.

 

[zoiDman]

Yeah, I spent 40 hours a week for 50 years living by the numbers. When I vape I just want to relax. I randomly tweak stuff sometimes to see if it gets me a better vape. I know how ohms work, anything beyond that is more than I can be bothered with.

If people want to get into the weeds with that stuff I wish them luck. That's the good thing about hobbies, there's a shoe to fit every foot.

I hear you. I spent my Entire working career using Numbers, or Evaluating Numbers, or Teaching how to Manipulate Numbers.

But when it comes to Vaping, Imperial Numbers aren't what determines a comparison. It's the Hit I get.

Because if I am making a Comparison of Numeric Values but the Hits are Dissimilar, and I don't like one of the Hits, then it Isn't a Vaping Comparison anymore. It's a Numeric Comparison.

 

[Eskie]

Comparing alloy types to determine ramp up time requires another function in there. Time. Volts, amps, heat capacity, even inductance, all require time somewhere in there for determining the ramp up time of a coil. Oh, and what the end point is as well. Are we talking about looking at a linear response over the firing period? Again, mech vs regulated sorta doesn't matter there either as the determinant is your finger on the fire button, not the alloy. But then we can start to get into my fave, temp control, which is where things look entrely different when you throw preheat into the soup.

As to mech vs regulated, volts are volts. Comparing 4.2V from a fresh battery in a mech and 4.2V from a regulated mod sorta ends up the same. You can measure quantify the lag in firing but at least that has time as a variable.

Bottom line for me as a vaper is what's my metal mass and how much power does it take to heat that chunk of metal up enough to give me the vapor quality I enjoy. Achieving that by calculation is pretty tough to determine once you get beyond simple single round coil builds anyway. I just go with what I like. Others may well go about it differently than I do in my setups. We're all right in our choices as they work for us. The only wrong way is if you're not achieving the results you want, and I don't believe under real world conditions you can calculate that out to solve your problem.

 

[Rossum]

As to mech vs regulated, volts are volts. Comparing 4.2V from a fresh battery in a mech and 4.2V from a regulated mod sorta ends up the same.

Not really. A regulated mod set to 4.2V will produce 4.2V. But that's not possible for a mech. Even if you ignore the losses in the mod itself, the voltage of the battery will say the moment you put a load on it.

 

[Eskie]

Not really. A regulated mod set to 4.2V will produce 4.2V. But that's not possible for a mech. Even if you ignore the losses in the mod itself, the voltage of the battery will say the moment you put a load on it.

True. Makes the whole thing even harder. Now throw internal resistance in to account for and battery sag, and calculating ramp up time is even more complex.

 

[greek mule]

I am not comparing regulated vs mech.I was very clear to my text.All I mean is if we have two coils that have the same dimensions and the first coil is made of kanthal and the second coil is made of SS316L and we put each coil to a different atty and hit them with a regulated device at the same 50 watts,kanthal will ramp up faster. And if we put these coils again each one installed at a different atty on the same mech with fresh battery,the ss316L coil will ramp up faster.This is the definition for what metal alloy wires ramp up faster !

 

[Denvap0r]

ok

 

[diagrammatiks]

I am not comparing regulated vs mech.I was very clear to my text.All I mean is if we have two coils that have the same dimensions and the first coil is made of kanthal and the second coil is made of SS316L and we put each coil to a different atty and hit them with a regulated device at the same 50 watts,kanthal will ramp up faster. And if we put these coils again each one installed at a different atty on the same mech with fresh battery,the ss316L coil will ramp up faster.This is the definition for what metal alloy wires ramp up faster !

If two the two coils are exactly the same size then the ss316 coil is about half the resistance. On a mech it would fire with significantly more wattage.

It’s not rocket science over here.

 

[Denvap0r]

ok

 

[vapdivrr]

If two the two coils are exactly the same size then the ss316 coil is about half the resistance. On a mech it would fire with significantly more wattage.

It’s not rocket science over here.

Exactly

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[Punk In Drublic]

@greek mule – Will assume you obtained your figures from Steam Engine. If so, the Heat Capacity is in relation to the mass of the coil, hence why the figures for Ni80 are greater than Kanthal (Ni80 has more mass than Kanthal for the same dimensions).

I tried to engage the developer of Steam, who is or was an ECF member, for further explanation but he never responded. I believe Heat Capacity was implemented into Steam to compare the same type of wire but of different dimensions and not different types of wire with the same dimensions.

Regardless, comparing coils of different types of metal is not as black and white as you portrayed for there are many variables involved. Simple example…

Ni80 has a lower Specific Heat Capacity than Kanthal (450 vs 460), but a much higher mass. If all else was equal, Ni80 would be slower to heat up than Kanthal due to its mass being a greater factor than its Specific Heat Capacity for the same given dimensions. But all else is not equal. Ni80 also has a much lower resistance, which even with the same applied power can also play a part in how quickly a coil can ramp up.

 

[mcclintock]

It's true a lot of vaping lore is based on unfair comparisons, with more than one parameter changing, sometimes because there is no all-else-equal comparison. They are particularly hard to make with mechs, resulting in beliefs persisting that are mainly true only with them.

 

[greek mule]

@greek mule – Will assume you obtained your figures from Steam Engine. If so, the Heat Capacity is in relation to the mass of the coil, hence why the figures for Ni80 are greater than Kanthal (Ni80 has more mass than Kanthal for the same dimensions).

I tried to engage the developer of Steam, who is or was an ECF member, for further explanation but he never responded. I believe Heat Capacity was implemented into Steam to compare the same type of wire but of different dimensions and not different types of wire with the same dimensions.

Regardless, comparing coils of different types of metal is not as black and white as you portrayed for there are many variables involved. Simple example…

Ni80 has a lower Specific Heat Capacity than Kanthal (450 vs 460), but a much higher mass. If all else was equal, Ni80 would be slower to heat up than Kanthal due to its mass being a greater factor than its Specific Heat Capacity for the same given dimensions. But all else is not equal. Ni80 also has a much lower resistance, which even with the same applied power can also play a part in how quickly a coil can ramp up.[/QUOT

The lower resistance of Ni80 at regulated device and at the same power does not affect its ramp up.specific heat and mass of the coil does.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

The lower resistance of Ni80 at regulated device and at the same power does not affect its ramp up.specific heat and mass of the coil does.

Below video is dated but excellent example of comparing Kanthal to Ni80.

I do not know what inner diameter he uses, will assume it’s around 2 to 2.2 mm but that is irrelevant for he uses the same ID for both coils. But using a 2.2mm ID to try and replicate his coils in Steam we get these figures….

28 gauge
8 wraps

Kanthal A1
Resistance = 1.37 ohms
Heat Capacity = 20.22 mj/k
Mass = 43.95 mg

Ni80
Resistance = 1.03 ohms
Heat Capacity = 22.99 mj/k
Mass = 51.44 mg

So if Heat Capacity, as it is calculated in Steam, and Mass is greater with Ni80, why does it heat up quicker than Kanthal?

 

[greek mule]

Today I will buy some spools of wire and do the same test including ss316.but to tell the truth it seems I was wrong.

 

[Rossum]

So if Heat Capacity, as it is calculated in Steam, and Mass is greater with Ni80, why does it heat up quicker than Kanthal?

That's a dang good question. Based strictly on the numbers, it should be the other way around.