Ranting on ignorance.

[Bramble]

[...] When you try to quit both cold turkey, you are left with both habits to "not think about".

I'm down from 24mg to 11mg and may go a little lower. I think I'll keep some level of nic for quite a while and may not ever hang up my Provari.

See, I really do think this is part of it. I have quit before (over and over) and spent a lot of time in support forums etc and one of the things that always comes up is this sense of something missing in your life when you no longer smoke. A sense of loss, and what do you do with the time you used to spend smoking. vaping satisfies that because it gives you a new toy, a new interest, a new hobby in place of the tobacco. Face it, the gadgets ARE cool, my sister and I decided it's way cooler than smoking ever was. That really is part of its appeal and something that even adequate nicotine replacement doesn't give you.

I think a lot about this and I have come to conclude that the vaping community (as a grassroots community) - has beaten both the smoking cessation industry AND big tobacco at its own game. Look at all the fantastic support you get when you switch to vaping Notably it does not generate any dollars for government or pharma.

We just had an article in the local new that the county I live in has the highest national rate for people taking up ecigs. We also have a very high rate of vilifying actual smoking so it's not a wonder people are seeking alternatives. But rather than being happy about the switch, they are freaking out about "the kids" and "the toxic vapors" and other non-starters. I always tell people, "Where you see people vaping... you see people not smoking. Which do you prefer?"

 

[Phenomenon]

This is what I like to refer as "willful" ignorance. They would rather STAY ignorant and think they are right than actually research something they don't know just to admit they were wrong. Drives me bonkers and is all too common in society.

 

[Buggainok]

It seems to me that as time goes on, smokers have become a #1 hate object for the general public who are non-smokers.

The refrain here where I live is frequently: "Well, it looks like smoking." i.e. "We hate smokers, it looks like smoking, therefore we hate you."

I think the rabid non-smoking crowd thinks that all smokers should be punished for their past transgressions. They hate it that we have found something less harmful that we enjoy, and we shouldn't be allowed to do anything we enjoy. Then we aren't "suffering" enough for all those smoking years.

 

[Ryedan]

I stopped one person arguing with me about the flavour thing being about capturing kids by asking them if they though flavoured condoms (yup - it's a thing) were to attract kids.

That's a great line and is so stolen ...

 

[icyblack]

<flamesuit>

I wonder how many in here got offended when laws were passed telling smokers to get outside and away from the collective public lung.
One of the benefits of quitting smoking is that we educated ourselves on what smoking has done to us – and done to those around us. An interesting poll would be to ask how many people have quit smoking cigarettes through vaping – then quit vaping?

I've been vaping for only 3 weeks but I still worry if i'll be vaping for the next 26 years - i've traded one bad habit for another. I haven't quit smoking – i've quit cigarettes. I'm still addicted to the nicotine, the hand in mouth, the throat hit – i'm still a smoker for all intents and purposes.

Vaping is being sold as a cheaper, and much safer alternative but we're still inhaling a combusted mix of PG/VG, flavor and nicotine. As everyone else admits, there have been no real studies on the long term effects. Combusted? Yes, combusted – it's a liquid being vaporized by a red hot coil. Touch a bit of tobacco to a red hot coil, and it's going to combust.

I read postings in here about people chain vaping 36 mg juice like it's a good thing. Is it really?
Is that a good trade off? Going from a pack a day of the real thing to what? I'm not even sure of the math – are you? How many packs a day does that equate to in nicotine? Is anyone here going to tell me that 36 mg vapor exhaled from your lungs is “nicotine free”? And don't give me the crap about tomato's and other veggies containing nic. I've already felt the OD effects of nicotine and only vape 18 mg max.


The problem with having an open mind is that there's always someone trying to put something in there. There is nothing more ignorant than the average smoker – we smoked in bars, in restaurants, choked out the public. As vapers, we can now smell a smoker from 20 feet away – and it offends my nose to smell it – it offends me even more to know that I was smelling like that in public. I'm still trying to get the smell out of my car - but we were offended when the public collective stood up and said enough, get outdoors and away from the rest of us. Now here we are trying to put forward this safer alternative and we expect what from Joe Public?

Both of my parents smoked in the house, in the car, everywhere – did it hurt me? Hell if I know, I started smoking when I was 14. Was it their fault? No. I see kids today walking out of the local supermarket with a case of red bull under their arm.

I don't get this ideal that we “vapers” should be pushing our “safer alternative” on anyone when we're not totally sure it's a safe alternative in the long run? Do you vape in front of your kids? Do you blow it in your friends faces? Vape with your kids in the car or other enclosed spaces? I'd be curious to know the answer even tho it's none of my flipping business.


You see, I wasn't upset when laws were passed banning smoking in bars and other public places. I never smoked in my own home, nor did I ever smoke in anyone elses – be they smokers or not. Never felt comfortable with it, always took it outside. I've tried vaping around others, just doesn't feel right cause I don't know if it is causing any issues. My friends don't say anything when I do sneak a vape around them. I have been vaping in my condo – and I do smell the residue when I come home from work – that bothers me.

If vaping were sold as a means to an end, and not a hobby like it is on this board - just maybe more people would get on board and listen.

</flamesuit>

 

[Bramble]

It seems to me that as time goes on, smokers have become a #1 hate object for the general public who are non-smokers.

The refrain here where I live is frequently: "Well, it looks like smoking." i.e. "We hate smokers, it looks like smoking, therefore we hate you."

I think the rabid non-smoking crowd thinks that all smokers should be punished for their past transgressions. They hate it that we have found something less harmful that we enjoy, and we shouldn't be allowed to do anything we enjoy. Then we aren't "suffering" enough for all those smoking years.

Right? Even some ex smokers who quit cold turkey act like finding an easier method is bad because it doesn't produce enough suffering lol.
My CT quits cause widespread suffering not only to me but to everyone I come into contact with and everyone around me knows it The people in my life who care about me (and their own safety) are amazed how stable I am for being less than two weeks off tobacco -- they are all for the vaping

"Don't worry, your concentration, focus, and sanity will come back in 6 months or so if you quit CT!!"

 

[ScottP]

This is all just proof that mankind cannot exist without some sort of discrimination. You can no longer discriminate based on race, sex, or sexual preference, so now the only politically correct discrimination is based on smoking and obesity.

 

[CommaHolly]

<flamesuit>

I wonder how many in here got offended when laws were passed telling smokers to get outside and away from the collective public lung.
One of the benefits of quitting smoking is that we educated ourselves on what smoking has done to us – and done to those around us. An interesting poll would be to ask how many people have quit smoking cigarettes through vaping – then quit vaping?

I've been vaping for only 3 weeks but I still worry if i'll be vaping for the next 26 years - i've traded one bad habit for another. I haven't quit smoking – i've quit cigarettes. I'm still addicted to the nicotine, the hand in mouth, the throat hit – i'm still a smoker for all intents and purposes.

Vaping is being sold as a cheaper, and much safer alternative but we're still inhaling a combusted mix of PG/VG, flavor and nicotine. As everyone else admits, there have been no real studies on the long term effects. Combusted? Yes, combusted – it's a liquid being vaporized by a red hot coil. Touch a bit of tobacco to a red hot coil, and it's going to combust.

I read postings in here about people chain vaping 36 mg juice like it's a good thing. Is it really?
Is that a good trade off? Going from a pack a day of the real thing to what? I'm not even sure of the math – are you? How many packs a day does that equate to in nicotine? Is anyone here going to tell me that 36 mg vapor exhaled from your lungs is “nicotine free”? And don't give me the crap about tomato's and other veggies containing nic. I've already felt the OD effects of nicotine and only vape 18 mg max.


The problem with having an open mind is that there's always someone trying to put something in there. There is nothing more ignorant than the average smoker – we smoked in bars, in restaurants, choked out the public. As vapers, we can now smell a smoker from 20 feet away – and it offends my nose to smell it – it offends me even more to know that I was smelling like that in public. I'm still trying to get the smell out of my car - but we were offended when the public collective stood up and said enough, get outdoors and away from the rest of us. Now here we are trying to put forward this safer alternative and we expect what from Joe Public?

Both of my parents smoked in the house, in the car, everywhere – did it hurt me? Hell if I know, I started smoking when I was 14. Was it their fault? No. I see kids today walking out of the local supermarket with a case of red bull under their arm.

I don't get this ideal that we “vapers” should be pushing our “safer alternative” on anyone when we're not totally sure it's a safe alternative in the long run? Do you vape in front of your kids? Do you blow it in your friends faces? Vape with your kids in the car or other enclosed spaces? I'd be curious to know the answer even tho it's none of my flipping business.


You see, I wasn't upset when laws were passed banning smoking in bars and other public places. I never smoked in my own home, nor did I ever smoke in anyone elses – be they smokers or not. Never felt comfortable with it, always took it outside. I've tried vaping around others, just doesn't feel right cause I don't know if it is causing any issues. My friends don't say anything when I do sneak a vape around them. I have been vaping in my condo – and I do smell the residue when I come home from work – that bothers me.

If vaping were sold as a means to an end, and not a hobby like it is on this board - just maybe more people would get on board and listen.

</flamesuit>

TOUCHE. some very good points,,,,,,not all of which I agree with,,,,,,but I will say that's my problem with thinking we have a RIGHT to vape ANYWHERE except our own homes, cars, etc,,,,,,,

It's also the bit of uncomfortable I feel when I think about stealth vaping inside in public places (Walmart, the movies, etc),,,,,,it feels SNEAKY to me,,,,,like I don't care what I may be throwing out into the air others have to breathe.

again, I don't necessarily agree with everything you said,,,,,,,I do think it's HEALTHIER,,,,,,,,if it's a choice between smoking or vaping,,,,I'll vape forever if it comes to that,,,,,I have no plans to quit,,,,

but I admire you for saying it.

 

[Brusky]

everyone is ignorant, and you would be ignorant to think that you are not..

vapers are ignorant, as smokers are ignorant, as non smokers are ignorant..
But as we live in a community, everyone will have to compromise, to live happily.

And obviously it is easier to please the majority, so we should already know who will compromise the least, which is understandable to a degree.

Stupidity is what you seemed to have dealt with in conjunction with ignorance, which of course every group has those too.

 

[Steamix]

Oh, the powers that are love these...

They make the perfect subjects for the post-democratic times to come.
Gobbling down whatever crap they get spoonfed through media.
Unwilling or unable to form their own opinion, to make their own mind, they readily believe whatever they're told to believe.

Yes, they do make me angry - and they also scare the s..t outta me.

Nuremberg trials, Milgram experiments ....oh, they were all 'just following orders'...

 

[RoseB]

I've said it before and I'll say it again....just look at people like that (chronic cry babies) and in your best Michael Jackson/Janet Jackson voice say "You're being ignorant". Then walk away. If the person is not a smoker I won't even bother trying to explain, because they just don't get it.
http://video.search.yahoo.com/video...igt=108cmc1hv&ct=p&age=0&fr=chrf-offrhap&tt=b

 

[oxidus]

I'm 25 and I had a hard enough time learning the ropes / where to buy from / having money in general. I've yet to see a kid walking around with an e-cigarette. Plenty of them with analogs though.

 

[icyblack]

TOUCHE. some very good points,,,,,,not all of which I agree with,,,,,,but I will say that's my problem with thinking we have a RIGHT to vape ANYWHERE except our own homes, cars, etc,,,,,,,

It's also the bit of uncomfortable I feel when I think about stealth vaping inside in public places (Walmart, the movies, etc),,,,,,it feels SNEAKY to me,,,,,like I don't care what I may be throwing out into the air others have to breathe.

again, I don't necessarily agree with everything you said,,,,,,,I do think it's HEALTHIER,,,,,,,,if it's a choice between smoking or vaping,,,,I'll vape forever if it comes to that,,,,,I have no plans to quit,,,,

but I admire you for saying it.

CommaHolly, that's the beauty of these forums, nobody has to agree with everyone on everything.

It just bothers me to see vaping being sold as a hobby or long term/permanent alternative to smoking cigarettes - but then to have the vaping community getting upset that the general public doesn't want to support it.


That said...

I'm 42, been smoking for more than half my life (scary thought). Let's say I vape for 5 years as the healthy alternative to smoking the real analogs...

5 years will put me at 47 - now for the sake of argument, let's look at a scenario. I'm sitting in a doctors office 5 years from now and he/she is telling me I have small cell lung cancer with a year to live on the outside. Do I blame the 20+ years of smoking - or the 5 years of vaping...?


Big tobacco? People, they have already cornered the market, chances are you've either already purchased something produced or owned by one of the big tobacco firms or will in the future. If you can't beat it, join or buy it. When Joe Public starts associating e-cigarettes with the big tobacco boys, you're done for in public. Get used to it.

 

[p.opus]

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
--HERBERT SPENCER

That is a very famous misquote. Herbert Spencer never said that..... William Paley said that.

 

[DaveP]

<flamesuit>

Vaping is being sold as a cheaper, and much safer alternative but we're still inhaling a combusted mix of PG/VG, flavor and nicotine. As everyone else admits, there have been no real studies on the long term effects. Combusted? Yes, combusted – it's a liquid being vaporized by a red hot coil. Touch a bit of tobacco to a red hot coil, and it's going to combust.

</flamesuit>

You make good points. The only one I would contest is the above. Combustion can occur with a spark or a glow, but there's a difference in smoking and vaping. Tobacco combustion produces smoke. Vaping produces a steam. Tobacco smoke consists of ash particles that are coated with tar and nicotine and thousands of chemicals with high danger ratings for health. Those ash particles are generally small enough to penetrate into the lungs down into the smaller branches where the product of combustion is absorbed into the blood stream, to the heart, and out to the brain and other parts of the body served by the arterial system.

Vaping produces a mist that consists of water, nicotine, and PG/VG droplets that are generally too large to make their way far enough into the bronchial system to be absorbed by the lungs. So, most of the nicotine your absorb is absorbed by the mucous membranes in your mouth, throat, and nasal passages. From what I understand, mucous membrane absorption results in lower bioavailability vs inhaling directly into the lungs, which feed the heart directly. That's probably the reason we absorb lower amounts of nicotine than from cigarettes.

I'm no doctor, so my understanding is from an internet study view. We also get toxic chemicals of combustion in amounts low enough to meet EPA guidelines for those chemicals. There's a study out from Drexel School of Medicine that was done specifically on ecigs using 5000 volunteer test subjects over five years. It's a good read with links to more in depth information. Link below.

http://publichealth.drexel.edu/~/media/files/publichealth/ms08.pdf

 

[mattiem]

I've read plenty of people's ranting on here, my turn.

I was at the grocery store (one I use to work at) and an old coworker noticed my PV (which I was not using). I tried explaining what it was and she as a close-minded non smoker didn't hear a word. She genuinely believes nicotine is the carcinogen in cigarettes and likewise my vape is just as bad. The cherry on top of my headache is when I mentioned the different flavors she responded "that just tells you they are targeting kids"

I have no words to express my annoyance at this ignorance... At least no words the moderators will let me post.

Just bringing the OP forward and wondering how the original rant went so far afield. Adults like a variety of flavors. The flavors are not there to try to tempt the kids. It is not the nicotine that causes so many smokers to die.

We are fighting a loosing battle when even smokers/ex-smokers can't see eye to eye on these 2 points.

 

[Bramble]

<flamesuit>

I wonder how many in here got offended when laws were passed telling smokers to get outside and away from the collective public lung.
One of the benefits of quitting smoking is that we educated ourselves on what smoking has done to us – and done to those around us. An interesting poll would be to ask how many people have quit smoking cigarettes through vaping – then quit vaping?

I've been vaping for only 3 weeks but I still worry if i'll be vaping for the next 26 years - i've traded one bad habit for another. I haven't quit smoking – i've quit cigarettes. I'm still addicted to the nicotine, the hand in mouth, the throat hit – i'm still a smoker for all intents and purposes.

Vaping is being sold as a cheaper, and much safer alternative but we're still inhaling a combusted mix of PG/VG, flavor and nicotine. As everyone else admits, there have been no real studies on the long term effects. Combusted? Yes, combusted – it's a liquid being vaporized by a red hot coil. Touch a bit of tobacco to a red hot coil, and it's going to combust.

I read postings in here about people chain vaping 36 mg juice like it's a good thing. Is it really?
Is that a good trade off? Going from a pack a day of the real thing to what? I'm not even sure of the math – are you? How many packs a day does that equate to in nicotine? Is anyone here going to tell me that 36 mg vapor exhaled from your lungs is “nicotine free”? And don't give me the crap about tomato's and other veggies containing nic. I've already felt the OD effects of nicotine and only vape 18 mg max.


The problem with having an open mind is that there's always someone trying to put something in there. There is nothing more ignorant than the average smoker – we smoked in bars, in restaurants, choked out the public. As vapers, we can now smell a smoker from 20 feet away – and it offends my nose to smell it – it offends me even more to know that I was smelling like that in public. I'm still trying to get the smell out of my car - but we were offended when the public collective stood up and said enough, get outdoors and away from the rest of us. Now here we are trying to put forward this safer alternative and we expect what from Joe Public?

Both of my parents smoked in the house, in the car, everywhere – did it hurt me? Hell if I know, I started smoking when I was 14. Was it their fault? No. I see kids today walking out of the local supermarket with a case of red bull under their arm.

I don't get this ideal that we “vapers” should be pushing our “safer alternative” on anyone when we're not totally sure it's a safe alternative in the long run? Do you vape in front of your kids? Do you blow it in your friends faces? Vape with your kids in the car or other enclosed spaces? I'd be curious to know the answer even tho it's none of my flipping business.


You see, I wasn't upset when laws were passed banning smoking in bars and other public places. I never smoked in my own home, nor did I ever smoke in anyone elses – be they smokers or not. Never felt comfortable with it, always took it outside. I've tried vaping around others, just doesn't feel right cause I don't know if it is causing any issues. My friends don't say anything when I do sneak a vape around them. I have been vaping in my condo – and I do smell the residue when I come home from work – that bothers me.

If vaping were sold as a means to an end, and not a hobby like it is on this board - just maybe more people would get on board and listen.

</flamesuit>

No flamesuit needed on my account, you have a lot of great points. I was not offended about the bans on indoor smoking either. In Utah you can get a ticket for smoking in a car with children under 15 now, pretty sure they did pass that law too. Even when I did smoke, I didn't do it around children.

I don't agree with addict shaming about the nicotine and habit though. Nicotine is bad if it keeps people hooked on deadly delivery methods. If it were bad in and of itself, then I'd have to be pretty angry at the doctors pushing patches and gum at me to help me quit. Those delivery methods have their share of issues too btw. I did frequently inadvertently overdose on nicotine with those.

But to me vaping is kind of like those coffee enthusiasts who consume way more quad shot espressos a week than they should... they will spend money on very expensive beans and gadgets... but you don't see anyone shaming them for it. Rather, they are often called connoisseurs. They like their latte's and we aren't screaming at them for enjoying it or making a hobby out of it.

Granted, the caffeine is staying in their own bodies but there HAVE been studies showing that exhaled vapor does not pose a danger to those around us. Hopefully we are being considerate though. At least in my case with my idiosyncratic personal space issues, if someone is voluntarily standing close enough to me to be exposed to my vapor, they are in my rather large personal bubble and need to get out of my face. I don't vape in places where people have to be that near me, mainly because I won't generally be found in places like that. I know I can't be the only one like that. So when people tell me "but your'e still addicted and still this and still that" - they are making an unwarranted generalization based on zero information about me or about anything I actually do.

What I know about vaping being safe is that it is devoid of nearly everything in tobacco smoke that is toxic. In a perfect world we could snap our fingers and no one would smoke but that won't happen. Who wouldn't rather have someone vaping 5 feet away than smoking 5 feet away?

 

[icyblack]

From what I understand

so my understanding

There are only 2 things i'll quote here, I don't need to explain.


If I eat tobacco, it's probably not a good thing but in smoking filterless over the years i've swallowed some. I've eaten PG and VG in one way or the other. I've also drank plenty of alcohol - but some are choosing to vape it in one form or another which I classify as very friggin stupid. I'm sure you can see what i'm getting at here.

Vaporizing or combusting, we are still taking something into our system that is NOT in a natural state.

I have no doubt that vaping is a safer alternative to smoking - i'm not debating that. There are those that say they haven't seen a kid vape before, I have. I've had parents tell me their kids are using hookah pipes, different but same - it's something new to them and interesting. I know kids that smoke and personally, i'd rather see them smoke weed than get hooked on a cigarette. Kids are kids, they will do what they want to do - I had my share of fun growing up, been there, done that and could write a book and nobody could tell me differently, I survived my teen years.


My main concern lately in reading this forum is the ideal that vaping is now a billion dollar industry - and it is being sold as a hobby, as an alternative - NOT as a means to an end. While it's better to vape than to smoke, why keep vaping? Is it because we are still smokers or is it because the vaping industry knows that we adults like nice shiny things or is it that vaping is so pleasurable and doesn't need to contain nicotine?

We already see people joining this forum, non smokers or already ex-smokers starting to vape. Yes we are adults that can make our own choices, but is that a good thing? Vaping is an industry that is reliant on your dollars.

 

[ScottP]

In a perfect world we could snap our fingers and no one would smoke but that won't happen.

Nor should it. There are actually medical BENEFITS to nicotine. One of which seems to be a reduced risk to Alzheimer's.

 

[Rosenec]

I'm 25 and I had a hard enough time learning the ropes / where to buy from / having money in general. I've yet to see a kid walking around with an e-cigarette. Plenty of them with analogs though.

I agree with this. There are only a 15 or so vape shops in Erie county. All seem strict on who they sell to. There are hundreds of spots to buy cigarettes. Only some are picky on who the sell cigarettes to. And the Indian reservation will sell to any one. Very little government over sight.