Reading comments on the proposed FDA Regs... You people worry me

[Racehorse]

Numbers always matter in US politics.

The FDA received 69,000 comments. That's about 2 % of the populace (The population of the US is 317 million). A fatal mistake in any battle is to overestimate your capacity and/or ability to influence.

I suspect that comments to the FDA about sustainable farming, and the other issues for which comments are collected, will be quite larger numbers. I do feel the comments will give them more information, but comments are not votes. That said, I did not feel 2 years ago that the FDA would do anything that would absolutely destroy vaping, and I still feel that way today..........but I guess we will see.


As for literacy, time to stop making excuses. It is not a recent development that Americans have poor command of their own language, in comparison to other nations. (despite the fact that the Prez who brought us No Child Left Behind was barely a C student....this problem was going on before he enacted this nonsense.)

Adults have numerous avenues by which to improve themselves. I taught as a volunteer for literacy and encountered hundreds who gave up their evenings for months and years to learn better English. There are also night classes, libraries, online courses, books and tapes you can listen to in the car.

Not being able to write a logical, grammatical sentence, with most of the words spelled correctly, does not discount one's efforts / work of submitting a comment to the FDA, though.

But certainly, I do feel it's embarrassing when a large number of one's peers are unable to converse and/or write in their very own mother language. (dyslexia, and other language processing disorders are an exception, of course.) It reminds me of middle aged people who are still blaming their parents for everything when they've had 20+ years to sort it out, get therapy, etc. Blaming exempts them from having to actually *do the work*.

 

[joeybear]

Four words, No child left behind.

Two more that are even scarier..."common core"

 

[DaveP]

I was disappointed to see that the comments were all compressed into single paragraphs to save storage space. Either that, or everyone who responded typed their entire comment in one long paragraph. I'm hoping that there are invisible paragraph markers in the text that will expand when printed. It's tedious to read 1000 words with no paragraph breaks.

You have to wonder if English composition as well as creative and structured writing are still mandatory courses in school. They were for me, but I'm older than most. Colleges still stressed those subjects in the late 80s when I finally went back to college at night.

 

[DaveP]

Here, you can see the problem. The powers that be are declaring grammar and structure to be unfair to the unwashed masses.

Is Grammar Worth Teaching? - Walt Gardner's Reality Check - Education Week

For readers of a certain age, grammar was an essential part of the English curriculum. I vividly remember learning about parts of speech in elementary school, and then moving on to diagramming sentences in middle school. I'm sure I was an outlier, but I liked seeing how words came together to form ideas. In fact, I still have Warriner's English Grammar and Composition (Harcourt, Brace & World, 1951).

I was reminded of my experience by an essay tracing the rise and fall of grammar instruction ("Grammarians in Hoodies," Education Next, Spring 2013). During the 70s, there was a push to make English class more "relevant." Feelings about literature became more important than analysis. In 1972, the Conference on College Composition said that students had a right "to their own patterns and varieties and language." I was taken aback when the National Council of Teachers of English in 1974 issued a statement that correcting language was "immoral" because it was an attempt by one social group to exert dominance over another.

<snip>

Companies complain that workers can't fashion a clear and coherent memo. That doesn't surprise me at all. Young people can't enunciate a declarative sentence without the words "like" or "you know." That assumes they even know what a declarative sentence is. So when it comes time to put their thoughts in writing, they're predictably at a complete loss. Texting, of course, only exacerbates their deficits.

 

[Dasbeermeister]

Here, you can see the problem. The powers that be are declaring grammar and structure to be unfair to the unwashed masses.

Is Grammar Worth Teaching? - Walt Gardner's Reality Check - Education Week

I'm dyslexic and only have an 8th grade education, no GED either. If I'm appalled at todays lack of Grammer, spelling and punctuation there's a serious problem.

 

[secutorum]

I was commenting solely on their literacy, not anything else. The vast majority of Americans, for the most part, ARE functionally illiterate. Disliking that fact doesn't make it less true. Correcting people's grammar, syntax, spelling, and homonym choice won't fix it, it just makes them dislike the person doing the correcting, so I mostly don't bother -- but it's EVERYWHERE.

Andria

I agree with you here Andria. I have taught university students in both the US and the UK and can honestly say how shocked I am in general concerning the ability to write clearly and concisely. I was very fortunate in that my parents were Catholic and staunchly believed in the value of a Catholic education. That meant nuns and lots of grammar.

Years ago I used to be an Internet grammar professional, thinking that I was helping people out. I learned I was only making them mad and less likely to improve upon their written communication skills. As a Lecturer in History, it was my job to correct and hold students accountable for grammar in written assignments. The beginning two classes of any survey level classes I taught covered nothing more that how to write effectively and each student received a copy of a grammar primer I wrote while working on my doctorate.

I do, however, find that poorly written comments with copious grammar and spelling errors detract from the overall message. I internally cringe when reading some, but I try not to judge people. Writing, like many other disciplines, is an art. And most do not possess that talent.

No Child Left Behind single-handedly destroyed the fundamental value of the US public education system. No other 'reform' has had such a profound effect on the dumbing down of America. Anytime funding is based on a subjective multiple-guess exam, you'll get teachers who are forced to teach that, and only that. Gone are actual curriculae; in their place is just an extended exam prep. My children suffer because of it. But I also take the time to supplement what my children 'learn' in school, much to their never-ending displeasure...

Oh, and for those who wish to improve their grammar, here's a simple suggestion: work on learning a foreign language. There is no better way to understand your own native language's grammar and syntax rules than by learning another's. It really works...

 

[RedForeman]

You should visit South Georgia and converse with the locals!

"I'm fixing to fix this lawn mower engine! Son, go into the wash room and look on the shelf over the washer and see if you can find me a washer this size."

"On your way back, grab the hose pipe and water the dog."

I'm sure it's very possible the FDA thinks ALL vapers are ignorant children in need of nanny-ing.

The number one mission for government regulators is perpetuating their mission. No government regulator ever said, "Gee, I think this goes too far." Or, "This change is too confusing and has too many rules." And certainly never, "Nobody will ever read this book of rules. Let's simplify this, maybe reduce it to one page."

No...

I'm hoping for better, we can do better.

Instead of 30 seconds to type "don't ban my vaper you fascists"...

Spend 5 minutes, write 5 intelligent sentences...

Then another 5 minutes fixing them.

That's all I expected. That didn't seem like too much to ask.

I'm not a lobbyist, hell I'm a tattooed, foul mouthed, belligerent, old school punk, who'd like to see the entire political system "reformed"... Scorched earth style.

But, sometimes that's not appropriate.
Sometime you do have to play by 'their' rules.

It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out... And it shouldn't take someone like me to point it out.

In a roundabout way, you've finally reached the thing I like to rant about as well. There's an element of "dumbing things down" along with public schools turning to achieving metrics over educating. No, it's just carelessness and it shows. No matter how little you think it matters. It's there.

When I was growing up, you dressed up to go to church. You also did so when traveling via commercial airline and attending a job interview. Why is that? Appearances matter. No matter what people you may look up to may say about this, it does not change the impression you make with appearance. You can be a total idiot, and when you present yourself as put together, people will believe anything you tell them. The inverse is also true: If you present yourself as a complete idiot, nobody will believe a thing you say no matter how credible you actually are. Maybe a few will, especially if they are as careless or sloven as you are.

For the most part, my grade school English and Creative Writing teachers in the '70's stressed this. If you communicate poorly, your message will not be taken seriously. Over the years this has become less important. In my opinion there's two main reasons. 1. Educators are measured by results using standardized tests. It's no surprise that is now the focus of their efforts, instead of the longer term goal of equipping a young person for success in adulthood. 2. This trend now spans at least two generations in the past 40 years. Parents that learned careless communication habits now teaching their children. Now adults, they influence the standards being applied in a negative way.

Cultural influences have accelerated the decline of care in communication. Technology has to be number one. Why do the hard work when there's a gadget to do that for you? Yes it's never perfect, but who cares? Less people every day, apparently. There's also an increasing trend of giving those that should otherwise set the standards for solid communication a pass. Public figures and journalists. I see communication gaffes as an indication of carelessness, and that carelessness either equals contempt for the audience in the worst case, or at least less credibility.

The absolute worst are the people that point at an effective communicator and ridicule them. Calling them arrogant or the like. Really? It's a culture of failure. Failure is celebrated while success is alienated. Why do people do this? My belief is the "lowest common denominator." Bring everyone else down to my level. Suddenly I'm at least average since everyone else is like me. Well, no. You still appear ignorant and it's nothing to celebrate and be proud of. There's just more of you now. Next time you're looking for something to watch on TV, see if you can find Idiocracy on Netflix or Hulu. Takes what I've posted here to an extreme.

If you don't at least take minimal care in communicating a message to the FDA, you may as well not bother. I can't imagine that, if there are actual people reading these comments (versus automated word counts and whatnot), they will slow down and read the ones that are readable while simply scanning through the ones that were written carelessly.

 

[ClippinWings]

And one small piece of advice: It may be a good idea not to include the comprehensive accusation "You people worry me" in a thread headline.

Since you didn't figure it out, even after reading this entire thread...

That was sort of tongue in cheek, as I view myself as one of "you people"

Not going to put in a long response to the rest if your post, just one piece of advice for you as well...

Pot/Kettle

 

[ClippinWings]

"On your way back, grab the hose pipe and water the dog."


The number one mission for government regulators is perpetuating their mission. No government regulator ever said, "Gee, I think this goes too far." Or, "This change is too confusing and has too many rules." And certainly never, "Nobody will ever read this book of rules. Let's simplify this, maybe reduce it to one page."


In a roundabout way, you've finally reached the thing I like to rant about as well. There's an element of "dumbing things down" along with public schools turning to achieving metrics over educating. No, it's just carelessness and it shows. No matter how little you think it matters. It's there.

When I was growing up, you dressed up to go to church. You also did so when traveling via commercial airline and attending a job interview. Why is that? Appearances matter. No matter what people you may look up to may say about this, it does not change the impression you make with appearance. You can be a total idiot, and when you present yourself as put together, people will believe anything you tell them. The inverse is also true: If you present yourself as a complete idiot, nobody will believe a thing you say no matter how credible you actually are. Maybe a few will, especially if they are as careless or sloven as you are.

For the most part, my grade school English and Creative Writing teachers in the '70's stressed this. If you communicate poorly, your message will not be taken seriously. Over the years this has become less important. In my opinion there's two main reasons. 1. Educators are measured by results using standardized tests. It's no surprise that is now the focus of their efforts, instead of the longer term goal of equipping a young person for success in adulthood. 2. This trend now spans at least two generations in the past 40 years. Parents that learned careless communication habits now teaching their children. Now adults, they influence the standards being applied in a negative way.

Cultural influences have accelerated the decline of care in communication. Technology has to be number one. Why do the hard work when there's a gadget to do that for you? Yes it's never perfect, but who cares? Less people every day, apparently. There's also an increasing trend of giving those that should otherwise set the standards for solid communication a pass. Public figures and journalists. I see communication gaffes as an indication of carelessness, and that carelessness either equals contempt for the audience in the worst case, or at least less credibility.

The absolute worst are the people that point at an effective communicator and ridicule them. Calling them arrogant or the like. Really? It's a culture of failure. Failure is celebrated while success is alienated. Why do people do this? My belief is the "lowest common denominator." Bring everyone else down to my level. Suddenly I'm at least average since everyone else is like me. Well, no. You still appear ignorant and it's nothing to celebrate and be proud of. There's just more of you now. Next time you're looking for something to watch on TV, see if you can find Idiocracy on Netflix or Hulu. Takes what I've posted here to an extreme.

If you don't at least take minimal care in communicating a message to the FDA, you may as well not bother. I can't imagine that, if there are actual people reading these comments (versus automated word counts and whatnot), they will slow down and read the ones that are readable while simply scanning through the ones that were written carelessly.

Funny you mention it... I re-watched Idiocracy last week.

Maybe that's what subconsciously set me off.

 

[Anjaffm]

That was sort of tongue in cheek, as I view myself as one of "you people"

Oh. So your are worried about yourself and deriding your own submission to the FDA?
"Curiouser and curiouser," said Alice.
There are doctors who deal with such kinds of personality disorders. You may wish to visit one. There is help for such things, you know.

 

[ClippinWings]

Oh. So your are worried about yourself and deriding your own submission to the FDA?
"Curiouser and curiouser," said Alice.
There are doctors who deal with such kinds of personality disorders. You may wish to visit one.

Wow.

... Just wow.

 

[searcher]

but for the sake of keeping this post short, I'll just point out some terminology that I saw that makes vapers look ignorant and uneducated.

I am a "vaper who vapes and inhales vapor while doing so."

I do not use my "vapes to make vaper"

and I am certainly not "a vapor who loves smoking my ecig"

It's mind boggling to me how a vaper could not understand these basic concepts.

Look, I get that some terms are generational, or maybe even regional, I can see calling a vaporizer a "vape". I mean, it makes you sound ignorant to me, but I understand it. I do not understand not being able to differentiate between "vapor" and "vaper".

Sorry, just had to vent as I was reading comments and wondering why some people even bothered. Many seem almost absurdly bad. I began to wonder if ANTZ were posting comments just to make Vapers look like uneducated simpletons who couldn't possibly have the mental capacity to determine what may or may not be in their own best interest.

I am not about to read 13 pages of this thread to find out if this has been addressed, but you may find that a high percentage of your spelling or context errors are the result of automatic spell check and correct. The words we use on a daily basis (ecig, vape, vaper, etc) are not real words. Spell correct will auto change the words you are complaining about to the ones you are using as examples.

 

[ClippinWings]

I am not about to read 13 pages of this thread to find out if this has been addressed, but you may find that a high percentage of your spelling or context errors are the result of automatic spell check and correct. The words we use on a daily basis (ecig, vape, vaper, etc) are not real words. Spell correct will auto change the words you are complaining about to the ones you are using as examples.

Good point... I added them all to my phone dictionary. But you're right, others may not have.

It doesn't address all the issues I was talking about, but could certainly contribute.

Thanks.

 

[AndriaD]

I agree with you here Andria. I have taught university students in both the US and the UK and can honestly say how shocked I am in general concerning the ability to write clearly and concisely. I was very fortunate in that my parents were Catholic and staunchly believed in the value of a Catholic education. That meant nuns and lots of grammar.

Years ago I used to be an Internet grammar professional, thinking that I was helping people out. I learned I was only making them mad and less likely to improve upon their written communication skills. As a Lecturer in History, it was my job to correct and hold students accountable for grammar in written assignments. The beginning two classes of any survey level classes I taught covered nothing more that how to write effectively and each student received a copy of a grammar primer I wrote while working on my doctorate.

I do, however, find that poorly written comments with copious grammar and spelling errors detract from the overall message. I internally cringe when reading some, but I try not to judge people. Writing, like many other disciplines, is an art. And most do not possess that talent.

No Child Left Behind single-handedly destroyed the fundamental value of the US public education system. No other 'reform' has had such a profound effect on the dumbing down of America. Anytime funding is based on a subjective multiple-guess exam, you'll get teachers who are forced to teach that, and only that. Gone are actual curriculae; in their place is just an extended exam prep. My children suffer because of it. But I also take the time to supplement what my children 'learn' in school, much to their never-ending displeasure...

Oh, and for those who wish to improve their grammar, here's a simple suggestion: work on learning a foreign language. There is no better way to understand your own native language's grammar and syntax rules than by learning another's. It really works...

Like you, I also did not accept the scanty "education" my son was receiving in school (tax-supported baby-sitting, more like!); fortunately he was a reader since he could pick up a picture book at the age of 3, climb up beside me on the couch, and say "I'm reading too, mommy!" Before he started kindergarten, he was solving word-search puzzles, and even finding words in the puzzle which weren't listed! So as soon as he was of the necessary age, I got that boy a library card -- and he made excellent use of it!

There are also excellent, interesting, and highly instructive things to watch on TV, if you just look for them -- History Channel was always a big fave in our house, as well as Discovery, natGeo, and PBS -- and those shows can do a great deal to ignite anyone's curiosity to learn more about a given subject. I always tried to help my son understand that learning was NOT about boring rote memorization, it was about enriching oneself with knowledge, and it was fun, too! He's 26 now, and like me, routinely visits the non-fiction area of the library, just to see what new, interesting, TRUE things have been written about and published.

And your suggestion about foreign language is right on the money -- I had no idea what "object" meant in English, until I took 2 yrs of Spanish. It completely cleared up a number of mysterious things about my own native language, to study another.

Andria

 

[ScandaLeX]

I'm curious, where can one read the comments? I thought I'd found the place but 95% of the comments I saw were from people commenting on cigars & it seemed like they had all sent in comments in a copy/paste type format (every comment started with the same first sentence). So I either went to the wrong place or didn't dig deep enough. Can someone provide a link? ty

This is exactly what I came across when I looked about 2 wks ago.

Sent from a BIG phone.....Galaxy Note 3

 

[Racehorse]

Like you, I also did not accept the scanty "education" my son was receiving in school

and that makes you a real parent. A good parent.

Unfortunately, many parents expect that they can just send their kids off all day to somebody else and magically, they will prosper. Involved and concerned parents know exactly what their kids are learning and doing, all the time. They spend hours each night supervising homework, etc. and broaden and enrich, as you say, their children's intellectual lives by exposing them to cultural, artistic, scientific and historical offerings outside of school.

It really is true that you get out of something what you PUT IN.

 

[ScandaLeX]

Thank you



Thank you



Thank you



Yes indeed.

And one small piece of advice: It may be a good idea not to include the comprehensive accusation "You people worry me" in a thread headline.
Especially not in the headline of a thread whose opening posting derides people who have less than perfect spelling, grammar and / or grasp of some communication from a government agency which is worded in complex official government language.

In addition:
What is the purpose of opening a forum thread that makes such a comprehensive accusation? Especially when this thread was opened on 08-11-2014, 07:40 PM - i.e. after period for submission of comments to the FDA had ended? The submission period is over. No further comments can be added. But, of course, one can gloat, deride, point fingers and attempt to assert one's own superiority.

Attempt - yes. Succeed - no. On the contrary.

Your activities in favor of vaping are definitely commendable.
But - let's face it - this thread just was not a good idea. It serves no useful purpose. But it has made a number of people frown.

I could hug you!!!!!

Sent from a BIG phone.....Galaxy Note 3

 

[Anjaffm]

I could hug you!!!!!

go ahead, dear

 

[bigdancehawk]

I agree with you here Andria. I have taught university students in both the US and the UK and can honestly say how shocked I am in general concerning the ability to write clearly and concisely. I was very fortunate in that my parents were Catholic and staunchly believed in the value of a Catholic education. That meant nuns and lots of grammar.

Years ago I used to be an Internet grammar professional, thinking that I was helping people out. I learned I was only making them mad and less likely to improve upon their written communication skills. As a Lecturer in History, it was my job to correct and hold students accountable for grammar in written assignments. The beginning two classes of any survey level classes I taught covered nothing more that how to write effectively and each student received a copy of a grammar primer I wrote while working on my doctorate.

I do, however, find that poorly written comments with copious grammar and spelling errors detract from the overall message. I internally cringe when reading some, but I try not to judge people. Writing, like many other disciplines, is an art. And most do not possess that talent.

No Child Left Behind single-handedly destroyed the fundamental value of the US public education system. No other 'reform' has had such a profound effect on the dumbing down of America. Anytime funding is based on a subjective multiple-guess exam, you'll get teachers who are forced to teach that, and only that. Gone are actual curriculae; in their place is just an extended exam prep. My children suffer because of it. But I also take the time to supplement what my children 'learn' in school, much to their never-ending displeasure...

Oh, and for those who wish to improve their grammar, here's a simple suggestion: work on learning a foreign language. There is no better way to understand your own native language's grammar and syntax rules than by learning another's. It really works...

Writing skills have been in decline for a long time. I recently read some letters written by army privates during the Civil War. They were remarkably literate. Fast forward a century. In the '70s I was appointed as a student editor of an American Bar Association publication. (The editor-in-chief was a law professor.) My job was to edit digests (summaries) of recent cases and statutes written by other law school students. Most of their submissions were unworthy of publication and I had to conduct Saturday training sessions to teach basic syntax and grammar--stuff I learned as a high school freshman. Fast forward another 40 years. The quality of writing commonly seen in many newspapers and other publications has further deteriorated, with basic errors going uncorrected, e.g., “Caught between two Koreas, anxiety mounts on tiny island."

 

[sonicdsl]

Let's stop with the personal jabs ok



For your grammatical entertainment (and mood-lightening purposes), I present my current favorite music video:


​