Relationship Between Steeping Time and Volume?

[G and C]

Is there a relationship between how much time a juice that I make will need to steep and the volume of that juice that I make? In other words, if I make 10ml of a recipe and it takes a week to steep, will it take a week to steep if I make 30ml or 60ml of the same recipe? Or will it take longer because there's more juice involved?

What's your experience?

 

[IDJoel]

Is there a relationship between how much time a juice that I make will need to steep and the volume of that juice that I make?

Absolutely! The larger the volume, the further the molecules have to travel. Think of it in terms of taking a drive; it takes much less time to go around the block, than it does to go across country.

But volume is just one factor that will influence how quickly a recipe will take to fully blend. Viscosity (the thickness of the liquid) is another; high PG/low VG will blend more quickly than high VG/low PG. The specific components (flavor concentrates, PG, VG, nicotine bases, NETs, WTAs, TAs, and a hundred other potential adjuncts) you choose to use all influence the time needed. There are also other things that influence the commingling of various chemicals; but my chemistry education stopped in high school, and that was more than thirty years ago.

It also depends on how well we initially mix it up to begin with. Regardless of the method we choose, shaking, stirring, vibrating, etc., it is always going to be easier ("faster"/more effective) when the batch size is smaller.

Of course, DIYers are always looking for ways to "help" things along; heat (water, rice, crock pots, microwave ovens, car glove boxes and trunks), magnetic stir plates, and ultrasonic cleaners, and "seeding," are just some of the more common "speed steeping" methods you can find discussions about. I am not a "speed steep" fan, so I will leave that discussion to others.

In other words, if I make 10ml of a recipe and it takes a week to steep, will it take a week to steep if I make 30ml or 60ml of the same recipe? Or will it take longer because there's more juice involved?

In those small sizes; I have not noticed much of a difference. But, compare that same 10mL, to 250mL, or 500mL (or even larger; if you were thinking of mixing commercially) and then all of a sudden, 1 week can turn into 4weeks, or even 12, unless you are going to invest $2,500 (or more) in an industrial homogenizer.

 

[90VG]

Shake and vape.

 

[DaveP]

I usually mix 50ml bottles and find that maturity varies somewhat between a 20ml mix and a 50ml mix, but shaking a time or two daily speeds it along to the point where the difference is minimized. Test it and keep records on flavor and time for future reference.

It depends on the kind of juice you are making. Some are shake and vape and others require various steep times to mature. Fruit and candy are generally short or no time from mixing to vaping. Cream and dessert style mixes take longer, and tobaccos can take up to a month before the flavor blossoms completely.

ECF and Google are good resources for finding out how long people are steeping a particular flavor or a complex mix. Go with the average that people report and work from there.

 

[zoiDman]

Absolutely! The larger the volume, the further the molecules have to travel. Think of it in terms of taking a drive; it takes much less time to go around the block, than it does to go across country.

...

Where exactly are those Molecules going on their Road Trip?

 

[rob33]

This is just me if it needs more than week it goes in a ultra sonic bath. It's vaping not wine.

 

[G and C]

Absolutely! The larger the volume, the further the molecules have to travel. Think of it in terms of taking a drive; it takes much less time to go around the block, than it does to go across country.

But volume is just one factor that will influence how quickly a recipe will take to fully blend. Viscosity (the thickness of the liquid) is another; high PG/low VG will blend more quickly than high VG/low PG. The specific components (flavor concentrates, PG, VG, nicotine bases, NETs, WTAs, TAs, and a hundred other potential adjuncts) you choose to use all influence the time needed. There are also other things that influence the commingling of various chemicals; but my chemistry education stopped in high school, and that was more than thirty years ago.

It also depends on how well we initially mix it up to begin with. Regardless of the method we choose, shaking, stirring, vibrating, etc., it is always going to be easier ("faster"/more effective) when the batch size is smaller.

Of course, DIYers are always looking for ways to "help" things along; heat (water, rice, crock pots, microwave ovens, car glove boxes and trunks), magnetic stir plates, and ultrasonic cleaners, and "seeding," are just some of the more common "speed steeping" methods you can find discussions about. I am not a "speed steep" fan, so I will leave that discussion to others.

In those small sizes; I have not noticed much of a difference. But, compare that same 10mL, to 250mL, or 500mL (or even larger; if you were thinking of mixing commercially) and then all of a sudden, 1 week can turn into 4weeks, or even 12, unless you are going to invest $2,500 (or more) in an industrial homogenizer.

Thanks for the detailed reply, that all makes a lot of sense.

I vape MTL, typically 1.8 ohms around 12 watts, so I don't go through juice all that quickly. Maybe 2ml a day, so my batch sizes tend to be smaller. I'm just now going from 30ml batches to 60ml batches now that I've learned enough through doing DIY about what I like and don't. Maybe 500ml is in my future, who knows!

 

[IDJoel]

Thanks for the detailed reply, that all makes a lot of sense.

I vape MTL, typically 1.8 ohms around 12 watts, so I don't go through juice all that quickly. Maybe 2ml a day, so my batch sizes tend to be smaller. I'm just now going from 30ml batches to 60ml batches now that I've learned enough through doing DIY about what I like and don't. Maybe 500ml is in my future, who knows!

Depending on the typical flavor profiles you like (fruits, custards, bakery, candy, tobacco, etc.), not only can the aging time vary, but so can the shelf life. Some, when stored properly, can easily last for more than a year. While others can show a noticeable flavor loss ("fade") in less than a month.

My previous post was super generalized; and not intended to suggest that any DIYer "needs" to be mixing 500mL batches. I apologize if I caused you to think otherwise.

Mix the size(s) you are comfortable with; and that you think you will get through without it becoming tiresome. Just because a person "can" make a 100 lb. lasagna; doesn't mean they want to eat all of it!

If you are just beginning your DIY journey; take baby steps, and grow as need, or desire, dictates.

I vape 12-15mL a day, and have been 100% DIY only for more than the last two years, and I still mix 80-90% of my mixes as 15-30mL batches. The only thing I make larger than 60mL, is my unflavored, which is what I vape about 70% of the time; and that I do in 180mL batches.

 

[Eskie]

Where exactly are those Molecules going on their Road Trip?

Pluto and back, that's why it takes so long.

As to volume, I vape ~7 ml a day and trade off between juices. Generally I mix 60 ml but my absolute fave is 120 ml at a time. I find it's so fast to mix that mixing large volumes doesn't feel essential. After a hot water bath and solid shaking, just about everything is good within a few days.

 

[zoiDman]

Pluto and back, that's why it takes so long.

...

That would take a Long Time. Hope they have a Big Bag of Beef Jerky and a handful of Sammy Hager CD's.

 

[OlderNDirt]

I admit that I frequently, and probably erroneously, put on my thinking cap unnecessarily, and other times it's like another poster runs in and slaps it on my head.

Absolutely! The larger the volume, the further the molecules have to travel. Think of it in terms of taking a drive; it takes much less time to go around the block, than it does to go across country.

As I understand, the only need for the molecules "to travel" is to meet up with other molecules and blend together. If I am incorrect, and I too frequently am, just say so and we can just stop here. Otherwise, on to my theory......

In a 30ml mix, there are X number of molecules for each component. A 240ml mix of the same recipe would then contain 8X of each component leaving the same numerical relationship between components as the 30ml mix. So unless there is some assignment to a specific molecule of component A to blend with a specific molecule of components B, C, and D.....why would any additional travel be necessary?

Think of it this way. Is the 240ml mix really any/much different then 8(eight) 30ml bottles just mixed in one bottle? In your "terms", is it just molecules going round each block in an 8 block town? Once the molecules on each block are done, presumably about the same time as a 30ml mix, an earthquake (quick shake) will mix up the 8 blocks and you are good to go?

Sorry! I am too much of a DIY infant to know if steeping time increases with the size of a mix. This was just something that made me go hmmmmm?

 

[JCinFLA]

@OlderNDirt - See, I started thinking about that the very same way as you stated above, when I first started making different sized DIY batches. When I make a recipe, I let it naturally age/steep the same amount of time, no matter whether it's a 15mL bottle or a 120mL bottle I've made.

All ingredient variables in the recipe are kept the same (identical flavorings + % of each used, same Nic base and % of it used, same PG and VG + % used of each)...and just the amount I'm making is different. So why would the steep/age time need to vary?

ETA: For really simple example...let's say I'm wanting to make a Jack and Coke. I might use a 12oz. can of Coke and 1/2 shot of Jack and stir it for 5 seconds. Or, if I'm really thirsty I might make a bigger drink using 24oz. of Coke and 1 full shot of Jack. It's going to take the same 5 seconds to thoroughly blend it! At least I've found that it does.

 

[sofarsogood]

How about some clarifications. Mixing is to get the ingredients evenly distributed. Steeping might better be called aging. May be some mysterious process happens to some flavoring over time that might improve the taste of the mix or may be it's all in the imagination.

I mix 200 ml once a month and keep it in the frig. I try to remember to shake the bottle every time I pour from it because VG is about 25% heavier than PG and nic (and probably the flavoring too) so it might tend to settle in the botttle. The useful concept is "specific gravity". Water has a value of 1.0. Things with a lower speciific gravity value will float on water. Thinngs with a higher value than1 will not float. Nic and PG have almost identical specific gravity so they won't separate very fast but VG might be a different story. Here is a page with the values for those three. Calculating the specific gravity of your nicotine solution.

Some time before the end of the year I'm going to crack open my first long term liter of nic concentrate (10% nic in PG). It's been in the freezer for a couple of years. There probably hasn't been much settling because of the very similar specific gravity values but before it's divided in to 4 250 ml bottles for mixing I want to be certain it's completely mixed. To do that I'm going to figure out a home made bottle roller that can hold my 1 liter bottles. They operate similar to a hot dog cooker. I'm going to make it simple and from commonly available materials and easy to build and show pictures and list of materials when I'm certain it works. It would probably also be an option for people who think a lot of mixing is necessary for finished liquids. Bottle rollers are how labs often mix ingredients but the devices they buy are silly expensive.

 

[go_player]

Mixing is to get the ingredients evenly distributed...

There are different scales that matter here. The kind of mixing you're realistically going to achieve without specialized equipment can distribute the flavors fairly evenly at a scale we would generally consider pretty small (and it's that distribution that @IDJoel is mainly talking about- the greater the volume the more difficult it is to achieve that.) But what we're really looking for is as homogeneous a solution as we can get, and this works on a much smaller scale. Molecules of solute in a solvent will move around randomly until they are very well mixed, but this takes time.

The useful concept is "specific gravity". Water has a value of 1.0. Things with a lower speciific gravity value will float on water. Thinngs with a higher value than1 will not float.

This depends on their miscibility. The elements of a stable solution won't separate unless you change conditions so as to make the solution unstable. Ethanol has a different specific gravity than water, but the ethanol in a tightly sealed bottle of vodka won't separate from the water. You can leave the bottle on a table for a year, and the alcohol will remain evenly distributed.

 

[SteveS45]

I usually mix up a minimum of 60ML's of each of my daily vapes when the bottles start getting low leaving me 4 to 7 days which I find without speeding up the process is more than enough time. A normal mixing session is anywhere from 180ML's to who knows?

 

[sofarsogood]

There are different scales that matter here. The kind of mixing you're realistically going to achieve without specialized equipment can distribute the flavors fairly evenly at a scale we would generally consider pretty small (and it's that distribution that @IDJoel is mainly talking about- the greater the volume the more difficult it is to achieve that.) But what we're really looking for is as homogeneous a solution as we can get, and this works on a much smaller scale. Molecules of solute in a solvent will move around randomly until they are very well mixed, but this takes time.



This depends on their miscibility. The elements of a stable solution won't separate unless you change conditions so as to make the solution unstable. Ethanol has a different specific gravity than water, but the ethanol in a tightly sealed bottle of vodka won't separate from the water. You can leave the bottle on a table for a year, and the alcohol will remain evenly distributed.

Thanks for the term miscibility. I looked it up and the definition included the word "disolved" so now I need a definition of that too. I can only speculate about the miscibility of PG and nic combined. I'm not leaving it to chance for nic concentrate stored long term. I don't worry about it for the monthly mix. Still it seems to me the best way to mix e liquid, if you must, is with a lab style bottle roller.

 

[go_player]

Thanks for the term miscibility. I looked it up and the definition included the word "disolved" so now I need a definition of that too.

That's the key here. A solution is a kind of very homogeneous mixture, one where different substances are evenly mixed even at _very_ small scales. Solutions have interesting properties- for one thing you can't separate the substances involved by mechanical processes (like filtering.) But different substances can dissolve to different degrees in other substances- oil isn't soluble in water, for instance, so no matter how well you mix oil into water, it will eventually separate (though if you use lab equipment to mix them so they're homogeneous at a very small scale you'd be surprised at how long it can take them to separate.)

I think nicotine and PG ought to be totally miscible, as ethanol and water are. So once the nic is thoroughly dissolved in PG it really shouldn't separate under normal circumstances (note how hard you have to work to separate alcohol from water, by distilling for instance.) Someone kind of called me on this in another thread here not too long ago, and I think they were right.

I'll admit to still shaking things well before mixing with them- it's force of habit, partially and.. it's also because a lot of very experienced mixers recommend doing so. I'm always a bit wary of dismissing people's experience out of hand, even if it doesn't make much sense to me. But as long as your base starts off evenly mixed, and you don't do anything to disrupt the stability of the solution (which I think might take some doing with solutions of nic in PG or VG,) I can't really see why it would be necessary.

 

[go_player]

@OlderNDirtIt's going to take the same 5 seconds to thoroughly blend it! At least I've found that it does.

I think it's partially that water is a lot less viscous than PG, and especially VG, so it's a lot easier to get things throughly mixed with it.

But I also think that the scale on which things are evenly mixed matters a lot more for vaping than it does for things we eat or drink. I don't completely understand why, and it puzzles me a bit (it puzzles me a bit that juice sometimes needs long steeps, tbh.) But it seems to be the case- for instance, you can often taste a drop of a freshly mixed juice that needs a long steep and get a much better sense of how it will vape after a steep than you could by vaping it right away.