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Wow this is great stuff, OPEN SOURCE FTW! Everything looks like a winning combination. One thing I would suggest is that we have a little forward thinking with regard to how a better performing cart could be designed around this at a later time that will also work with the carts we have available currently. It would make a whole lot of sense that we utilize all the effort here to kill as many birds as we can with one stone. I especially like the extended cool tip. It would work perfectly with a cart concept I drew up previously. See it here. But given a clean slate, such as this, I'm sure something really efficient could be drawn up.
I definitely appreciate all the hard work you all have put into this and it really looks like it could be the solution everyone is looking for. Just keep the cart in mind. An atty that is better than we have and works with existing hardware is a great thing. An atty is designed around current and future hardware is even better!!!
I definitely appreciate all the hard work you all have put into this and it really looks like it could be the solution everyone is looking for. Just keep the cart in mind. An atty that is better than we have and works with existing hardware is a great thing. An atty is designed around current and future hardware is even better!!!
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I bombarded him with all the concept images, with the understanding that these were -concept drawings- for a possible direction we may want to take using the heater. As you can see, I also asked him about their capabilities for casting insulating ceramics attached to the base of the rod. Hopefully this will pan out, as I think it's a great idea, but I think we need to get the samples order placed to make sure the heaters are going to do what we need them to do first. It would be great to have the manufacturer cast a single piece that would just slide into the atty tube.
The connections at the bottom are going to be just like in the previous pic I posted - metal posts soldered to the pads at the outside edge of the bottom piece. I measured the coil pot, and the leads should be an exact fit to the hole placement for the coil leads. I think 20mm leads should be sufficient to attach a battery connector and stuff back into the atomizer tube.
I have him online now, so you guys have about 5 more minutes to ask questions...
Q4mK
My only question, albeit late, is how long does the cool tip, as Dan illustrates, have to be to remain cool enough not to burn filler? Its going to heat up to some degree, so how long can the element be on before the cool tip is no longer cool enough to function as designed? Its probably something we're just going to have to test in the field but maybe your 'guy' can shed some light on it.
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Ok, here's what the rep said:
I didn't get a chance to actually chat with him today, so I didn't place the order. What do you folks think?
Q4mK
I read this that we will just have to test it for ourselves. Hopefully this formula means something to one of you - it's above my head.
I think that 150C is going to be too hot to contact the cart filler.
Again, I hope this formula makes sense to someone. I know it will be hotter.
He can facilitate the casting, but I'm not sure the heaters will be cast together.
I didn't get a chance to actually chat with him today, so I didn't place the order. What do you folks think?
Q4mK
Would it be possible to get a sleeve sent with the first batch? Just a 10-14mm long Sleeve that would fit fairly snug. I'm thinking of some designs that could actually use the "casing", if formed right, to touch the cart filler. It'd be nice to see how much heat would transfer from a snug fit to the casing.
Everything else looks great.
Everything else looks great.
Ok, I caught up to him. After explaining again exactly what an e-cigarette does, and showing him more websites and video, he has a better understanding of what we are trying to accomplish. He says that he -might- be able to make a 4mm heating area, instead of 6mm. This is good for a number of reasons. We can get it made with a 4mm unheated tip (to keep it the same length), but the tip will also probably reach 120C. We will need to test it to be sure. It will also move the heat further away from the cart, and if we grind off the tip (sorry Dan) it will provide space to build a wicking bridge above the heater. Perhaps we can design a different solid wick (pyrex?) that would fit to the top of the heater and wick from the cart without carrying the heat? I would prefer to stay away from the stainless steel wicking if possible, but at least that material has known properties. The rep is going to check with his engineering team today, and get back with me. Unless there is feedback to the contrary, I will probably order the heater with the 4mm heating area and a 4mm unheated tip if we can get it, or the 6mm heating area with 2mm tip if we can't.
Comments?
Q4mK
Comments?
Q4mK
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Would it be possible to use a type of porous ceramic (for the bridge), to allow for wicking of the liquid? Would that work or would it just cause the ceramic to eventually crumble away like sand?
It might be possible, I wouldn't recommend permanently attaching to the element though (if that's what you mean), because it would eventually get clogged up with residue and be a pain to clean. If it was a separate (replaceable) piece though, it should be fine (not crumble).
Looks good to me, I like the 4mm tip idea, in theory it depends of how you cycle the power as to how hot the tip might actually go. Even the current bridge will burn the cart material if it becomes to dry.
Lets do it!
Dan
Lets do it!
Dan
I suspect that the heater will be simple to clean, whether we wick to the heater from a non-heated tip, or an external wick, just because it is non-porous ceramic. I think I would rather deal with replacing a clogged stainless steel sleeve for the heater, rather than incorporate porous ceramic, which would be extremely difficult to clean.
I would think that any type of ceramic would conduct too much heat. Something like Pyrex I think would work better, if we can go that route. Which leads me to my next point....
I'm also concerned with regulating the flow of fluid. In the coil design, the liquid is wicked from the cart and saturates the bridge, and the cylinder of wicking material that surrounds (including the bottom) of the ceramic pot containing the coil. The only liquid actually getting to the coil is coming through the strands of the mystery material that is inside the wrap of coil, which extends over the edge of the ceramic pot and wicks from the stainless mesh. This is an extremely small amount of liquid, and outside of the few drops that bubble up when you draw hard on a flooded atty (gurgling sound), that (I believe) is the only liquid getting vaporized. The idea behind the wick is that as the end dries out, it pulls more liquid from its source. I have tried submerging a working coil in fluid, and it does nothing but heat the fluid - no vapor. Regulating the fluid is a necessary function of a working atomizer.
If the tip of the heater (or something solid on the tip) is in contact with the cart filler, what stops the cart from simply emptying into the atomizer whether or not the heater is on? The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that we are going to end up having to use some type of wick, if only to regulate the fluid delivery.
Other opinions?
Q4mK
I would think that any type of ceramic would conduct too much heat. Something like Pyrex I think would work better, if we can go that route. Which leads me to my next point....
I'm also concerned with regulating the flow of fluid. In the coil design, the liquid is wicked from the cart and saturates the bridge, and the cylinder of wicking material that surrounds (including the bottom) of the ceramic pot containing the coil. The only liquid actually getting to the coil is coming through the strands of the mystery material that is inside the wrap of coil, which extends over the edge of the ceramic pot and wicks from the stainless mesh. This is an extremely small amount of liquid, and outside of the few drops that bubble up when you draw hard on a flooded atty (gurgling sound), that (I believe) is the only liquid getting vaporized. The idea behind the wick is that as the end dries out, it pulls more liquid from its source. I have tried submerging a working coil in fluid, and it does nothing but heat the fluid - no vapor. Regulating the fluid is a necessary function of a working atomizer.
If the tip of the heater (or something solid on the tip) is in contact with the cart filler, what stops the cart from simply emptying into the atomizer whether or not the heater is on? The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that we are going to end up having to use some type of wick, if only to regulate the fluid delivery.
Other opinions?
Q4mK
I know I said earlier in the thread that we need to focus on the heater and ignore everything else, but I'm discovering that fluid delivery, airflow and heat are all interdependent. Ordering 10 of these now is a good place to start, but we definitely need to have a tested game plan before we order 1,000 of them! Perhaps now is the time to start a simultaneous thread discussing airflow, and another for liquid delivery. Because of the dependent nature of these components, we need to keep up on developments in all the areas as we move forward. Maybe SJ would give us a forum heading called "the perfect e-cig"? 
Q4mK
Q4mK
I have been following this thread since the beginning. I have been hesitant from jumping in because everyone has been focusing on the heater portion. Now that you bring up liquid delivery I wanted to chime in.
I have to say, one of the things I find to be the most frustrating part about PVs is the filler in the cart. I would prefer some sort of interchangeable liquid cart.
The idea I have been tossing around in my head a while now is a cartridge that kind of mimics the ink cartridge of a fountain pen. I was also thinking you could have a rod of porous ceramic in the middle of the liquid cart and extended out the top which would then contact with the heater and vaporize the liquid in the ceramic wick.
With this design, you could change out different flavors of liquid and should really have cross contamination of flavor since the wick is part of the liquid cartridge and to the atomizer.
If you are having a hard time visualizing this, I could try and put some pics together to demonstrate this.
Anyway just my .02
I have to say, one of the things I find to be the most frustrating part about PVs is the filler in the cart. I would prefer some sort of interchangeable liquid cart.
The idea I have been tossing around in my head a while now is a cartridge that kind of mimics the ink cartridge of a fountain pen. I was also thinking you could have a rod of porous ceramic in the middle of the liquid cart and extended out the top which would then contact with the heater and vaporize the liquid in the ceramic wick.
With this design, you could change out different flavors of liquid and should really have cross contamination of flavor since the wick is part of the liquid cartridge and to the atomizer.
If you are having a hard time visualizing this, I could try and put some pics together to demonstrate this.
Anyway just my .02
My $.02.....
I feel that the mechanics of the fluid delivery can be engineered when we get some of these samples.
I have seen some other devices that vaporize material, and it seems that in some of them the hot air is drawn across the material to be vaporized, so I am thinking that once we get this thing heated it may only need to be in close proximity to the liquid to cause it vaporize..... and the unheated tip may be all we need (as it would get to a lower temp.).
In my experience with engineering, I have learned that a lot of the theory does not reflect practice.
Engineers are wrong, and experimentation is the key. We could find that we do or do not need wicking material, we just don't know at this point.... we are basing our assumptions on the current atty, and this is somewhat uncharted territory.
I could be wrong (I have been a few times in my life), but I think the samples will tell the tale. And I agree that if we find refinements need to be made we can do that before the BIG order.
Does this make sense?
I feel that the mechanics of the fluid delivery can be engineered when we get some of these samples.
I have seen some other devices that vaporize material, and it seems that in some of them the hot air is drawn across the material to be vaporized, so I am thinking that once we get this thing heated it may only need to be in close proximity to the liquid to cause it vaporize..... and the unheated tip may be all we need (as it would get to a lower temp.).
In my experience with engineering, I have learned that a lot of the theory does not reflect practice.
Engineers are wrong, and experimentation is the key. We could find that we do or do not need wicking material, we just don't know at this point.... we are basing our assumptions on the current atty, and this is somewhat uncharted territory.
I could be wrong (I have been a few times in my life), but I think the samples will tell the tale. And I agree that if we find refinements need to be made we can do that before the BIG order.
Does this make sense?
I just got back from the glass bender, can anyone supply me with a few nichrome elements spiraled instead of wound??? He thinks we can solve a major hurdle with glass encasements.
Ashhead, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but we aren't working with nichrome in this thread, we're trying to make an alternative ceramic heater work. If you're looking for roadkill, try PMing him.
Q4mK
Q4mK
ceramic is awesome i use a ceramic tip soldering iron to do my vaporizing on a much larger scale.. and the tip does get hot ,, they are self cleaning if you up the temp.. it burns it all clean like an oven..
I cant wait to see what you guys come up with ,, and like i said in the glass addy thread if you need any glass parts made let me know.. i can work some really small stuff ..
I cant wait to see what you guys come up with ,, and like i said in the glass addy thread if you need any glass parts made let me know.. i can work some really small stuff ..
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