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I removed the bridge on my 510 to enable a more direct, warmer vapor; and when I pulled it out, the so-called wick came out with it. So all that remains is the pot, the coil in the pot, and the steel mesh that surrounds the sides and bottom of the pot. I made a mouthpiece (which is really nothing more than an endcap) using a knurled nut with an o-ring installed on it; and even though I must add 2 drops of juice about every 5-8 puffs, this set-up has been working just fine for about a month now.
Anyway, in this set-up, the juice gets to the coil through the holes on the sides and bottom of the pot. And that's it. For there is no wick.
Consequently, maybe a tall pot (that has 4 to 6 holes located high enough to be centered with the heated section of the rod) would be a good idea; with steel mesh surrounding this pot in the same way as on the 510. The increased amount of steel mesh would enable perhaps several drops of juice to be added at a time, and the whole bridge and cart could be eliminated.
Just a thought to consider.
Anyway, in this set-up, the juice gets to the coil through the holes on the sides and bottom of the pot. And that's it. For there is no wick.
Consequently, maybe a tall pot (that has 4 to 6 holes located high enough to be centered with the heated section of the rod) would be a good idea; with steel mesh surrounding this pot in the same way as on the 510. The increased amount of steel mesh would enable perhaps several drops of juice to be added at a time, and the whole bridge and cart could be eliminated.
Just a thought to consider.
Welcome to the project, PhiHalcyon! Your configuration is great if you are only going to drip, but I think our goal is an improved replacement for the existing 801 atomizer that will work for both dripping and carts.
Q4mK
Q4mK
Thanks. One of the nice things about this project is that once you get the first trial rods in, everyone can play around with different ways of getting juice to it. I've personally never cared for the carts, but love how the steel mesh is so maintenance free (save for some reverse air pressure every now and then). And, depending on exactly how much more steel mesh could be used in the set-up I described, you may actually be able to get the same or more juice in store as you could with a cart.
Have been thinking much the same thing :
Atomisers designed specifically for dripping
I hope we see attys specifically designed for dripping using the space to have more mesh to hold more liquid.
Well, I don't think I could ask for better company; and I totally agree with you when you said, "Perhaps half or more of seasoned vapers drip, and it is silly for those people to be using atomisers that are designed for cartridges, when if designed for dripping could be so much better."
The cartomizer was a step in that direction, but I found the extreme difficulty of replacing the filler material to be too much of a waste of perfectly good atomizer coils.
I agree with that assessment, but out of the entire consumer population of e-cigarettes, what percentage are the "half of (the) seasoned vapers"? Listen, I drip myself most of the time, and only use carts when I have to, but that's because carts aren't a good way of feeding juice to the atomizer. I've seen Kinabaloo post several times about a piezo sprayer for juice, and I think that idea is the best that I've heard. I also know that neither I nor most of the folks on this forum have the skill alone to do much beyond understand the concept of what Kin is talking about. Until this or something like it is developed, a vast majority of e-cig users are going to be using carts. I think it's important that an atomizer works well with both carts and dripping.
I would like two things to result from this thread. The first is a better atomizer design to replace the junk that we must work with now. Something that matches the quality and reliability of some of the nicer mods that have gone commercial. I want to see this end up in the hands of someone who is going to make it available to the public. Not as a kit, mind you, but as a more expensive atomizer that does what the shoddy ones do, but doesn't break, get clogged up, and most importantly doesn't have to be replaced every month or two.I don't know about anyone else, but I've spent over $100 just this year for atomizers, and the year isn't over yet! I would gladly fork over $50-100 USD for an atomizer that does what the current one does, but doesn't break or slow down, is easily maintainable, and comes with a good warranty (i.e. advance exchange, free shipping, etc...).
The second thing is to develop this product as a device created by the collective minds at ECF. Manufactured by whomever, sold by whomever, but created here at ECF. I believe the modders forums here are full of untapped resources. If we can continue to collaborate productively, I know that great things can come out of it. Kinabaloo's piezo sprayer needs to be looked at. Once we have a viable design and somebody picks it up and starts selling it, that is my next task. What most closely resembled our e-cigs in function? Theatrical fog machines. Anyone every looked to see how those work? I have. A big heater gets up to temp, then glycerine solution is -sprayed- onto the surface, creating huge clouds of vapor. The coil method doesn't exactly work like that, but this heater could. I have great ideas, as most of the folks here do. We just need to put our heads together, and most importantly, follow things through to conclusion!
I'll get off my soapbox now.
I also wanted to say that I'm very proud to be a part of this effort, and am grateful for the support of all the ECF members.
Q4mK
I would like two things to result from this thread. The first is a better atomizer design to replace the junk that we must work with now. Something that matches the quality and reliability of some of the nicer mods that have gone commercial. I want to see this end up in the hands of someone who is going to make it available to the public. Not as a kit, mind you, but as a more expensive atomizer that does what the shoddy ones do, but doesn't break, get clogged up, and most importantly doesn't have to be replaced every month or two.I don't know about anyone else, but I've spent over $100 just this year for atomizers, and the year isn't over yet! I would gladly fork over $50-100 USD for an atomizer that does what the current one does, but doesn't break or slow down, is easily maintainable, and comes with a good warranty (i.e. advance exchange, free shipping, etc...).
The second thing is to develop this product as a device created by the collective minds at ECF. Manufactured by whomever, sold by whomever, but created here at ECF. I believe the modders forums here are full of untapped resources. If we can continue to collaborate productively, I know that great things can come out of it. Kinabaloo's piezo sprayer needs to be looked at. Once we have a viable design and somebody picks it up and starts selling it, that is my next task. What most closely resembled our e-cigs in function? Theatrical fog machines. Anyone every looked to see how those work? I have. A big heater gets up to temp, then glycerine solution is -sprayed- onto the surface, creating huge clouds of vapor. The coil method doesn't exactly work like that, but this heater could. I have great ideas, as most of the folks here do. We just need to put our heads together, and most importantly, follow things through to conclusion!
I'll get off my soapbox now.
I also wanted to say that I'm very proud to be a part of this effort, and am grateful for the support of all the ECF members.
Q4mK
Well, I tried to link a picture, but I can't yet it seems... Could have shortened the URL, but I don't wanna break any rules.
I am working some preliminary designs in AutoCAD, and made a nice template that shows exactly how the Titan looks internally. Thought it would be helpful, but I guess I'll wait till I hit the 15 post mark.
I know we are focusing on the 801 but I only have the Titan (510).
I am working some preliminary designs in AutoCAD, and made a nice template that shows exactly how the Titan looks internally. Thought it would be helpful, but I guess I'll wait till I hit the 15 post mark.
I know we are focusing on the 801 but I only have the Titan (510).
Q4mK,
Just to be clear, I did not suggest any changes to the primary shared resource of the custom ceramic heater rod. I did suggest that a steel-mesh-wrapped tall pot with appropriately-located holes be used to place it in. For, juice wicked through the mesh and out the pot holes is how juice is 'sprayed' at the heated coil. So, unless this already-known-to-work means is substituted with an alternative, a steel-mesh-wrapped tall pot will be needed whether a cart and bridge will be used or not.
Just to be clear, I did not suggest any changes to the primary shared resource of the custom ceramic heater rod. I did suggest that a steel-mesh-wrapped tall pot with appropriately-located holes be used to place it in. For, juice wicked through the mesh and out the pot holes is how juice is 'sprayed' at the heated coil. So, unless this already-known-to-work means is substituted with an alternative, a steel-mesh-wrapped tall pot will be needed whether a cart and bridge will be used or not.
http://www.***********.com/showthread.php?t=4847&page=2
Check that out. Someone on this other forum mad a nichrome coil and coated it in Pyrex. I wonder how well it works. I really need an immortal atomizer or two.
What the.... I guess i cant link to the vapers forum. Oh well. So much for sharing Ideas.
Check that out. Someone on this other forum mad a nichrome coil and coated it in Pyrex. I wonder how well it works. I really need an immortal atomizer or two.
What the.... I guess i cant link to the vapers forum. Oh well. So much for sharing Ideas.
Sorry to interrupt... Does reversing the air flow help??? Heater closer to mouthpiece with wick closer to battery? Most of us hold the e-cig level or pointed slightly down, I tend to let my 801 w/ auto battery hang from my mouth. I get overflow from time to time. If the atomizer position was switched with the cartridge, the excess juice would drain back into the cart, not into the mouth.Thanks for the template, here is my idea, use a cone shaped design the allows for a place for the fluid to pool in the hotter section. With channels cut down the side air will flow up the side of the atomizer and drawing vapor out. The contacts on the bottom would make for a direct replacement with no soldering. If they can make the mold, they should be able to make any design, why not use a resivor design closes to the hottest part. And if the can make a cold section at the tip then this can touch the wicking material with out melting or burning it. Anyway here is my idea:
I will work on some 3D pics, in LightWave
Dan
.
I hope I'm not too late.
A lot of people have brought up cartridge heaters from places like Sun Rod in the past. I did A LOT of independent research and calculations on them and came to the conclusion that they will not work for the following reasons:
MASS
A bare Ni-Chrome coil is the bare minimum mass (by definition) for a standard heating element. Any additional mass on or around the coil must also be heated. Thus, if one encases that coil in sintered Aluminium Oxide, and inserts it into a glass or steel tube then the mass will be increased significantly. A bare coil takes about 500ms to heat, a cartridge heater would take at least 1500ms. So for an atty that lasts forever you just cut your battery life by 66%. Also the cartridge (heater) would stay hot after the power was cut and keep vaporizing juice even with no airflow.
POWER
The power available from a standard e-cig battery is not enough to handle even the smallest cartridge (heater) currently available. It's not enough to have 3.7 volts because there is a theoretical maximum to the current available from such a small battery. You can pull 100 amps @ 3 volts from a car battery but an e-cig battery will barely delivery 1.5 amps even on an open circuit.
OTHER THOUGHTS
The current E-Cig design doesn't have a lot of room for changes. The tiny coil is designed to go with the tiny battery and neither can be changed without changing the other. These cartridge heaters would need a lot more power from something like a USB-Passthrough, the Screwdriver Mod, or one of Warp's high voltage RCA mods. Even then they would chew up batteries and take almost 2 seconds before you could begin to inhale. (I've always said that making E-Cigs look like analogs severely limits what can be done with the technology.)
Cartridge heaters are ALWAYS cold at the tip it's almost impossible to make them not cold (or at least less hot) at the tip.
Cartridge heaters are ALWAYS sealed. The stuff to be heated only comes in contact with the case which is inert, like steel, glass, or aluminium.
It might be possible to make a custom cartridge heater that is only slightly more massive than a bare coil. The filler would have to be much lighter than Aluminium Oxide and the case would have to be thin, and/or lightweight like Alumium. It might be worth it to lose 50% battery life in exchange for an atty that lasts forever and is always consistent, but the specs I've seen in this thread fall short.
I hope I'm wrong.
---
P.S. This is my stop gap solution for attys that barely last a week.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modders-forum/34567-concept-clip-coil-atomizer.html
A lot of people have brought up cartridge heaters from places like Sun Rod in the past. I did A LOT of independent research and calculations on them and came to the conclusion that they will not work for the following reasons:
MASS
A bare Ni-Chrome coil is the bare minimum mass (by definition) for a standard heating element. Any additional mass on or around the coil must also be heated. Thus, if one encases that coil in sintered Aluminium Oxide, and inserts it into a glass or steel tube then the mass will be increased significantly. A bare coil takes about 500ms to heat, a cartridge heater would take at least 1500ms. So for an atty that lasts forever you just cut your battery life by 66%. Also the cartridge (heater) would stay hot after the power was cut and keep vaporizing juice even with no airflow.
POWER
The power available from a standard e-cig battery is not enough to handle even the smallest cartridge (heater) currently available. It's not enough to have 3.7 volts because there is a theoretical maximum to the current available from such a small battery. You can pull 100 amps @ 3 volts from a car battery but an e-cig battery will barely delivery 1.5 amps even on an open circuit.
OTHER THOUGHTS
The current E-Cig design doesn't have a lot of room for changes. The tiny coil is designed to go with the tiny battery and neither can be changed without changing the other. These cartridge heaters would need a lot more power from something like a USB-Passthrough, the Screwdriver Mod, or one of Warp's high voltage RCA mods. Even then they would chew up batteries and take almost 2 seconds before you could begin to inhale. (I've always said that making E-Cigs look like analogs severely limits what can be done with the technology.)
Cartridge heaters are ALWAYS cold at the tip it's almost impossible to make them not cold (or at least less hot) at the tip.
Cartridge heaters are ALWAYS sealed. The stuff to be heated only comes in contact with the case which is inert, like steel, glass, or aluminium.
It might be possible to make a custom cartridge heater that is only slightly more massive than a bare coil. The filler would have to be much lighter than Aluminium Oxide and the case would have to be thin, and/or lightweight like Alumium. It might be worth it to lose 50% battery life in exchange for an atty that lasts forever and is always consistent, but the specs I've seen in this thread fall short.
I hope I'm wrong.
---
P.S. This is my stop gap solution for attys that barely last a week.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modders-forum/34567-concept-clip-coil-atomizer.html
There is definitely some potential grounds for concern in regards to the amps required to achieve the desired temperature, but I have reason to believe that an ecig battery can crank out more than 1.5 amps. I once came across this little gem (LVBoost - Boost Converter) ... thinking I had found something really special (and for some applications, it is) ... but, even with 6 volts input, its maximum output current of 1.5 amps was insufficient to fire up an atty. Either that, or the one I ordered was defective.
Nonetheless, how long a battery can be used before needing to be recharged is of trivial significance in comparison to the safety, quality, and consistency of the vaping experience being delivered.
So, Q4mK, do inquire about the amps required - as well as an estimation of the rate of cooling, and let's take it from there.
Nonetheless, how long a battery can be used before needing to be recharged is of trivial significance in comparison to the safety, quality, and consistency of the vaping experience being delivered.
So, Q4mK, do inquire about the amps required - as well as an estimation of the rate of cooling, and let's take it from there.
If V = IR, then all we need to control the amps is the voltage and the resistance. Quit has already told him we want to use 3.7V and that the resistance should be around 3ohm. The manufacturer seems to think it will work fine...
I think the prototype parts will tell us what we need to know. Paraphrasing Dorian Shanin... 'Listen to the parts, the engineers are sometimes wrong.'
Techno,
I did A LOT of independent research and calculations on them and came to the conclusion that they will not work for the following reasons:
What devices did you research? How many prototypes did you make? What was the heat that you got from them? How long did it take to get to temp? If you are quoting times, you must have some data, or how did you determine 1.5 seconds? I would hope that you have data and are not merely giving opinions.
By the way, How is your stop-gap atty working? are there any available for us to use?
I did A LOT of independent research and calculations on them and came to the conclusion that they will not work for the following reasons:
What devices did you research? How many prototypes did you make? What was the heat that you got from them? How long did it take to get to temp? If you are quoting times, you must have some data, or how did you determine 1.5 seconds? I would hope that you have data and are not merely giving opinions.
By the way, How is your stop-gap atty working? are there any available for us to use?
Thank you Technocrat for bringing this to our attention. I appreciate your concerns, and your experience researching SunRods. While these ceramic heaters are similar to SunRods, there are also significant differences. Nonetheless, I raised the issue with the manufacturer. He said it was difficult to offer concrete answers because it was a custom device. He referenced I=U/R, so 3.7/2=1.9A. He then said that according to their formulas, the device required 1.37A to operate, but assumably, it uses 1A. Any way you look at it, it's going to draw more power than the stock penstyle batteries can provide, if they can even light it up. This isn't a big deal for me, because I don't use stock batts, and particularly like 18650-based mods. At 3000mAh, I'm guessing they provide enough amps to power the device, but I cannot be certain.
I see our options as follows: we can lower the amps, but have to increase the resistance to achieve the desired temp of 200C. The more the resistance increases, the longer the heating time. We have already estimated the heating time at just over a second, so I don't think we should increase that. I'm not sure what else we can do, other than create this just for big battery mods.
This is a bit of a bomb, but they have already started assembly, and have the ceramic body cast. The good news is that they have not yet cast the circuit, so we could still adjust it if we chose to do so. I asked him to delay for a day, so we could discuss the issue a bit further.
We need some expert solutions here, guys. I'm sure there is a way to make this work, we just need to put our heads together. Should we proceed as planned with this new information, or modify the V/Amp/Ohm specs?
Q4mK
I see our options as follows: we can lower the amps, but have to increase the resistance to achieve the desired temp of 200C. The more the resistance increases, the longer the heating time. We have already estimated the heating time at just over a second, so I don't think we should increase that. I'm not sure what else we can do, other than create this just for big battery mods.
This is a bit of a bomb, but they have already started assembly, and have the ceramic body cast. The good news is that they have not yet cast the circuit, so we could still adjust it if we chose to do so. I asked him to delay for a day, so we could discuss the issue a bit further.
We need some expert solutions here, guys. I'm sure there is a way to make this work, we just need to put our heads together. Should we proceed as planned with this new information, or modify the V/Amp/Ohm specs?
Q4mK
Id say just run the biger batts,, if your going to go for something like this who needs to stick with the small batts,, this hybridized stuff right here..,,
im already thinking of a complete glass housing ... um hummm you wouldn't want to drop it but it sure would be cool..
im already thinking of a complete glass housing ... um hummm you wouldn't want to drop it but it sure would be cool..
Crip, I agree that most folks that would be interested in a beefed up atomizer is probably already using either a high voltage or a bigger battery 3.7v mod. I think it would be very cool to see an entirely new, non-cigarette looking device developed on this technology. The best of all the mods on the forum. My wish list would be a device the size of the Janty Stick with a recessed or retractable atomizer, made from aircraft-grade aluminum, with an automatic juice feed w/5ml tank, 5v/3.7v switchable power supply (dual CR123a batts?), matte black of course.
Trying to get these modders to work together to product this killer device would probably prove to be a real challenge, as the best mods usually go commercial, but perhaps it could be done.
I've been following the posts in the glass atty thread. I like the ideas, and it looks like you guys are making some progress. I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea of inhaling from something that may contain broken glass. I drop my stuff once in a while, and would be worried about breaking something like that.
Q4mK
Trying to get these modders to work together to product this killer device would probably prove to be a real challenge, as the best mods usually go commercial, but perhaps it could be done.
I've been following the posts in the glass atty thread. I like the ideas, and it looks like you guys are making some progress. I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea of inhaling from something that may contain broken glass. I drop my stuff once in a while, and would be worried about breaking something like that.
Q4mK
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