Reply From The FDA
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Great point about the name-change!
I have thought that myself!
Let's all change the name to PV, PV-Liquids, and PV Forum, and they won't be able to find us!
I have thought that myself!
Let's all change the name to PV, PV-Liquids, and PV Forum, and they won't be able to find us!
I agree that the "cigarette" part of the e-cigarette, just tends to make it easier for people to lump vaping into the same group as analogs, which simply isn't true at all.
I really do not expect the vaping community to be able to outspend big pharma, in a head to head fight, to keep our right to vape. I can remember a time, that big tobacco thought that it was going to win that fight easily, and today even they pick the battles they want to fight with the antis. That being said, having CASAA armed with reasonable donations at least keeps the antis semi-honest, when they present their case to people that cannot be paid off.
I know that I do not care to be lied to, and when its shown that one side is perpetually dishonest, it makes it hard on them to present their case to "relatively neutral" parties and win, because their credibility has been shot. Demonstrating this lack of credibility therefore actually does go a long way towards proving your case, regardless of the correctness of your topic. The FDA having shown its total lack of credibility in the issue of vaping is actually one they did to themselves, because by lying to further their agenda, it simply makes it hard to buy into anything they have to say without a lot of evidence to support it. Other than for vapers safety, I hardly can recommend giving any anti group, any extra ammo to skew in their favor, in the form of expensive research.
Whether or not, you win or lose a fight, sometimes isn't the point. The point is to make it difficult for them to make any progress, even if you don't spend much in doing so. This tends to work pretty well when the people it is being presented to really have nothing better to do than to be fair about the topic in question. Even big pharma might get tired of spending huge money to make a little problem go away, if the money they spend is inefficient and ineffective. It cannot be that effective, when you toss millions or so a year at a problem, and it still exists. I know, that kind of money would solve a lot of problems I encounter daily.
So, its best that we fight them at reasonable cost, the best we can, with effective and efficient use of the vaping dollar, and hope they simply give up. It sure is nice when vapers can really spend when important cases come down, that really require a great person to present our side of the story though. Getting good representation, and arming them with what they need to do their best, isn't always cheap. Helping vendors and manufacturers of vaping products, that do bring important and relavent cases to the courts only hurts when we lose. It hurts more, though, when we lose due to a lack of reasonable funding. Being on the right side of the topic, and being honest with people about that topic though, actually in a lot of ways, makes the job easier than the lackeys of big pharma face at the present time. The only advantage they have in these cases are the fact, they don't have to worry about where their funding is going to come from.
Note that this is my own opinion of the situation, and if I'm in error, I'm willing to think about what you have to say. That doesn't necessarily, mean we will agree though. At the bottom line though, I believe we should be allowed to vape or smoke. I never claimed it was good for you or me, though I believe you cannot do much worse than smoking. I think we should have the freedom to choose how we get by in life though.
All that I ask, is that you remember when representing my right to vape, is that I'd prefer to not have to spend my extra time in our jails. It was bad enough to be marginalized in society because I used to smoke. Its entirely another thing, to be separated from my family when they actually need me to be around. Our prison system has plenty of people in it, that didn't need to be in there in the first place, I'm just hoping that I won't have to be one of them.
In that light I tend to make it known that I vape, yet I try to be respectful when I do so. I am willing to speak when something needs to be said, knowing full well that I may not get what I like. I have learned that at times though, the squeaky wheel actually does get the grease.
I'd also like to thank the good people who take the time to help us keep our right to vape. They do it because its the right thing to do, and I wish you the best.
Merry Christmas to all,
Cyatis
I really do not expect the vaping community to be able to outspend big pharma, in a head to head fight, to keep our right to vape. I can remember a time, that big tobacco thought that it was going to win that fight easily, and today even they pick the battles they want to fight with the antis. That being said, having CASAA armed with reasonable donations at least keeps the antis semi-honest, when they present their case to people that cannot be paid off.
I know that I do not care to be lied to, and when its shown that one side is perpetually dishonest, it makes it hard on them to present their case to "relatively neutral" parties and win, because their credibility has been shot. Demonstrating this lack of credibility therefore actually does go a long way towards proving your case, regardless of the correctness of your topic. The FDA having shown its total lack of credibility in the issue of vaping is actually one they did to themselves, because by lying to further their agenda, it simply makes it hard to buy into anything they have to say without a lot of evidence to support it. Other than for vapers safety, I hardly can recommend giving any anti group, any extra ammo to skew in their favor, in the form of expensive research.
Whether or not, you win or lose a fight, sometimes isn't the point. The point is to make it difficult for them to make any progress, even if you don't spend much in doing so. This tends to work pretty well when the people it is being presented to really have nothing better to do than to be fair about the topic in question. Even big pharma might get tired of spending huge money to make a little problem go away, if the money they spend is inefficient and ineffective. It cannot be that effective, when you toss millions or so a year at a problem, and it still exists. I know, that kind of money would solve a lot of problems I encounter daily.
So, its best that we fight them at reasonable cost, the best we can, with effective and efficient use of the vaping dollar, and hope they simply give up. It sure is nice when vapers can really spend when important cases come down, that really require a great person to present our side of the story though. Getting good representation, and arming them with what they need to do their best, isn't always cheap. Helping vendors and manufacturers of vaping products, that do bring important and relavent cases to the courts only hurts when we lose. It hurts more, though, when we lose due to a lack of reasonable funding. Being on the right side of the topic, and being honest with people about that topic though, actually in a lot of ways, makes the job easier than the lackeys of big pharma face at the present time. The only advantage they have in these cases are the fact, they don't have to worry about where their funding is going to come from.
Note that this is my own opinion of the situation, and if I'm in error, I'm willing to think about what you have to say. That doesn't necessarily, mean we will agree though. At the bottom line though, I believe we should be allowed to vape or smoke. I never claimed it was good for you or me, though I believe you cannot do much worse than smoking. I think we should have the freedom to choose how we get by in life though.
All that I ask, is that you remember when representing my right to vape, is that I'd prefer to not have to spend my extra time in our jails. It was bad enough to be marginalized in society because I used to smoke. Its entirely another thing, to be separated from my family when they actually need me to be around. Our prison system has plenty of people in it, that didn't need to be in there in the first place, I'm just hoping that I won't have to be one of them.
In that light I tend to make it known that I vape, yet I try to be respectful when I do so. I am willing to speak when something needs to be said, knowing full well that I may not get what I like. I have learned that at times though, the squeaky wheel actually does get the grease.
I'd also like to thank the good people who take the time to help us keep our right to vape. They do it because its the right thing to do, and I wish you the best.
Merry Christmas to all,
Cyatis
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The "We shouldn't have called it a cigarette" idea sort of misses the point.
They do know what they're doing. They aren't opposing this because it is called a cigarette. They are opposing it because it saves smokers from spending their money on stupid taxes, and on stupider pharmaceuticals.
The fact that, by so doing, smokers are also saving their own lives is just beside the point.
They really don't CARE what it's called. They are NOT honest people who have been confused by a product name. They are manipulative .......s who want to control your life and your money.
Best,
Ande
They do know what they're doing. They aren't opposing this because it is called a cigarette. They are opposing it because it saves smokers from spending their money on stupid taxes, and on stupider pharmaceuticals.
The fact that, by so doing, smokers are also saving their own lives is just beside the point.
They really don't CARE what it's called. They are NOT honest people who have been confused by a product name. They are manipulative .......s who want to control your life and your money.
Best,
Ande
So very true. +1
Their problem is that they are so "against smoking" that they want to be against this scary newfangled way for people to stop smoking by doing something that replaces the act of smoking while avoiding lighting tobacco on fire and inhaling any actual smoke because, gasp, "It LOOKS LIKE smoking! ...and not to mention that it kinda looks likes fun and it really sounds like something that really might help people, but omg we forgot about the children! What about the children?!? "The children" could find out about these things and have all kinds of fun pretending to smoke and that could derail all of our 'denormalization' efforts and smoker 'concentration camps' designated areas, and we simply cant have tobacco addicts miss their beatings and you didn't just call me a Nazi did you? Godwin's Law. House rules, I win."
Ande, I agree with you 100%!
It makes me so
that I have to calm myself down with a bit of levity!
A lot of lives could be saved by the use of E-Cigs!
My Dad (and so many good men) survived Pearl Harbor, went on to the Guadalcanal, and then on to the Burma Road in India;
risked their lives (many lost their lives) to fight for our country and for freedom!
The enemy is within and trying to take freedom away, not caring about freedom or lives of U.S. citizens!
People are now just sitting around and won't even write a letter!
What a kick in the to the men who fought and died to protect a great and free country!
Everybody should be flooding these sell-out-traitors' offices with letters (at the very least!) and contributing to whatever else might work in any way they can!
Nobody's asking them to pick up a B.A.R. and crawl through the jungle on their bellies!
Our Veterans have already done that!
(DEEP BREATH)
OK, now you see why I go for the levity!
It makes me so
that I have to calm myself down with a bit of levity!A lot of lives could be saved by the use of E-Cigs!
My Dad (and so many good men) survived Pearl Harbor, went on to the Guadalcanal, and then on to the Burma Road in India;
risked their lives (many lost their lives) to fight for our country and for freedom!
The enemy is within and trying to take freedom away, not caring about freedom or lives of U.S. citizens!
People are now just sitting around and won't even write a
letter!What a kick in the
to the men who fought and died to protect a great and free country!Everybody should be flooding these sell-out-traitors' offices with letters (at the very least!) and contributing to whatever else might work in any way they can!
Nobody's asking them to pick up a B.A.R. and crawl through the jungle on their bellies!
Our Veterans have already done that!
(DEEP BREATH)
OK, now you see why I go for the levity!
I absolutely agree the FDA and the anti's know exactly what they are doing and will lie when necessary as its about the money.
The issue comes when anti groups, show up, and say (and this is an example):
Hi I'm from the American Lung Association, we are here today to try to get your help to save people from cancer. We'd appreciate your support in banning e-cigarettes as smoking is very bad for everyone's health. If you would like to donate to help us out, great. Thank you for your time.
Of course its a lie, and yes the FDA and the antis do know better. The point is they do not care at the present time. There is money to be made. What we call it now, and I do agree there, is irrelevant as the term has been used for so long. However, I cannot say that the perception doesn't matter, because people don't always dig much beyond the obvious.
I have seen quite a few public comments, that have vehemently argued that because it is a cigarette, it shouldn't be allowed because smoking isn't allowed, and that is their entire argument. Which should tell you exactly how much they really know about the subject in the first place.
So, I guess to clarify my point, I wished it wasn't used so deviously in propaganda, because its a real sad way to help big pharma get exactly what they want. Of course its kind of a moot point now, but you know what they say about hindsight. Sorry if there is any confusion there, so I figured I'd clarify that.
Have a nice day,
Cyatis
The issue comes when anti groups, show up, and say (and this is an example):
Hi I'm from the American Lung Association, we are here today to try to get your help to save people from cancer. We'd appreciate your support in banning e-cigarettes as smoking is very bad for everyone's health. If you would like to donate to help us out, great. Thank you for your time.
Of course its a lie, and yes the FDA and the antis do know better. The point is they do not care at the present time. There is money to be made. What we call it now, and I do agree there, is irrelevant as the term has been used for so long. However, I cannot say that the perception doesn't matter, because people don't always dig much beyond the obvious.
I have seen quite a few public comments, that have vehemently argued that because it is a cigarette, it shouldn't be allowed because smoking isn't allowed, and that is their entire argument. Which should tell you exactly how much they really know about the subject in the first place.
So, I guess to clarify my point, I wished it wasn't used so deviously in propaganda, because its a real sad way to help big pharma get exactly what they want. Of course its kind of a moot point now, but you know what they say about hindsight. Sorry if there is any confusion there, so I figured I'd clarify that.
Have a nice day,
Cyatis
Honestly, I do not think it would change a thing; no matter what e-cigs were called!
It is WHAT E-CIGS DO that will get them banned.
They stop people from smoking tobacco cigarettes!
In numbers so large that cut deeply into the monies of the greedy
(we all know who you are!)
and the
tax revenue dollars.
What matters is:
What YOU are going to do to oppose this ban!
Each and every individual MUST do all he can to propagate the truth
and
a movement for the legalization of this life-saving device!
We need to get moving, and fast!
The period for comments to the FDA will close January 19!
It is WHAT E-CIGS DO that will get them banned.
They stop people from smoking tobacco cigarettes!
In numbers so large that cut deeply into the monies of the greedy
(we all know who you are!)
and the
tax revenue dollars.
What matters is:
What YOU are going to do to oppose this ban!
Each and every individual MUST do all he can to propagate the truth
and
a movement for the legalization of this life-saving device!
We need to get moving, and fast!
The period for comments to the FDA will close January 19!
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I can see ecigs being classified as tobacco products as a major hurdle toward ecig freedom. All a company has to do (or a municipality) is to ban tobacco products and the ecig falls right into the category banned. If the sign says "No tobacco products may be used in this facility", then ecigs are not allowed.
Things may not go that way, but companies may choose not to specify what's allowed and what's not just to simply enforcement. I guess we should be glad that ecigs weren't classified as drug delivery devices. We might have to go to our doctors for prescriptions to obtain ecigs and their accessories.
Things may not go that way, but companies may choose not to specify what's allowed and what's not just to simply enforcement. I guess we should be glad that ecigs weren't classified as drug delivery devices. We might have to go to our doctors for prescriptions to obtain ecigs and their accessories.
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Finally, some positive press!
I like the term "Vapor Sticks"!
The name "E-cigs" is bad for public image!
It associates VPs with cigarettes, to those who do not understand what they are!
Follow this link:
Walmart to Begin Selling Electronic Cigarettes?
It looks like Wal-Mart is getting ready to cash in on the "Face-to-Face" ban!
(But they're selling China products!)
Start sending comments to the FDA!
I like the term "Vapor Sticks"!
The name "E-cigs" is bad for public image!
It associates VPs with cigarettes, to those who do not understand what they are!
Follow this link:
Walmart to Begin Selling Electronic Cigarettes?
It looks like Wal-Mart is getting ready to cash in on the "Face-to-Face" ban!
(But they're selling China products!)
Start sending comments to the FDA!
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What an amazing opportunity. I have a lot of thoughts about that, but for one day I'll just bask in the news that Walmart may give the vaping a business go.
Of course the date is a little discouraging, but lets be optimistic today.
I will say that I'm glad my pv doesn't look anything remotely close to that picture, that is just asking for confusion imho.
Of course the date is a little discouraging, but lets be optimistic today.
I will say that I'm glad my pv doesn't look anything remotely close to that picture, that is just asking for confusion imho.
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I'd like to see a petition to the FDA & White house to leave PVs alone since "the children" are buying tobacco cigarettes face-to-face with no problem.
and
That unfortunately, they are procuring them from their drug dealers or at their local liquor stores!
but
That fortunately, most of these are at least 8 years old.
and
When the do they intend to do something about THAT!
and
That unfortunately, they are procuring them from their drug dealers or at their local liquor stores!
but
That fortunately, most of these are at least 8 years old.
and
When the
do they intend to do something about THAT!
It matters little if it's a tobacco product or not and they've already jumped that fence in the workforce, They just ban nicotine use and it doesn't matter if it's tobacco or pharma products= no nicotine.
It's a bit off topic, but I *really* want to find a lawyer with a good background in the ADAA and the courage to step up to the big dogs to start challenging that sort of employment discrimination against people with a perceived disability (by urine test) that may be treated by nicotine. The victim doesn't even need to have an actual disability to be protected from employment discrimination on the basis of a perceived disability.
Not so sure this is off topic. I say it is 100% ON topic. There is a very good chance that good lawyers will decide the outcome of all this anyway.
Having dealt with tons of them, I would say he needs to be not only "good" (as in capable, knowledgeable, connected, and influential) but also honest enough to view this cause in its totality.
Go for it. Make it a class action, of course. Oregon is a very plaintiff-friendly state -- all the way up to the Oregon Supreme Court.
The best defense is a good offense!
seems really strange to require TWO tests for nicotine products...one that gets bought and paid for buy big Pharma at around 1.5 mill and one for everyone else that costs 700mill...seems unfair for some reason
how do we get non-smokers to try ecigs for the test...or cigarettes....seems counter productive...
they spend billions on people to stop smoking...crazy
how do we get non-smokers to try ecigs for the test...or cigarettes....seems counter productive...
they spend billions on people to stop smoking...crazy
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