Reply From The FDA

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throatkick

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Before we start worrying about clinical evidence or anything of that type, we need to appreciate what the problem is: it's nothing to do with whether e-cigs work, or how well they work, or how safe they are. It's entirely about the money and absolutely nothing else has the slightest relevance.

Most people are simply not capable of understanding what a bunch of psychopaths we are dealing with here. Ironically, the ones that write " I am soooooooo mad" are the ones that REALLY don't get it.

Insanity has been defined as trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Why would the outcome be any different this time? The traditional methods simply will not work.This is going to require political activism, high-flying lawyers, for some people to get arrested, high-profile spokespeople, friends in the media, friends in Washington etc. etc. It's a game. You gotta learn how to play it and have the backing too.
 
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Cool_Breeze

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We should start a petition of Doctors who support the use of e-cigs!
There are plenty of Doctors out there who are well-informed of the pros of e-cigs and the cons of tobacco.​

A petition for doctors seems an interesting idea. Is there some wording that you or someone would like to suggest?
 

mg7454

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The industry as a whole has no plans because it is uncoordinated. Lobbying and PR would help, but is expensive. Clinical trials will not deliver full value for money because evidence of safety and efficacy is by and large irrelevant - all those in a position to take such evidence on board are working for the opposition.

In general, the preferred option is to wait and see what the competition comes up with next, and counter it when it arrives. Basic law says that e-cigarettes can't be killed off directly, but there are enough wrinkles that it might be possible to do it the slow way.

Before we start worrying about clinical evidence or anything of that type, we need to appreciate what the problem is: it's nothing to do with whether e-cigs work, or how well they work, or how safe they are. It's entirely about the money and absolutely nothing else has the slightest relevance.

These are the relevant issues:
  • NRTs and associated quit-smoking drugs are a billion dollar a year global market.
  • Drugs and therapies such as chemotherapy drugs for the treatment of sick and dying smokers are an even bigger money-earner - ten billion a year, fifty billion a year - who knows?
  • This income is under direct threat from e-cigarettes. Every smoker who switches to an e-cigarette takes several thousand dollars out of pharma's pocket. Multiply that by a few million and you see the scale of the problem.
  • The same goes for Snus of course - but in the US, the tobacco giants punch the same weight as the pharma giants, and no one in their right mind starts a fight they can't win. In any case, some of the tobacco and pharma firms are co-owned: the perfect solution.
  • Some States are nearly bankrupt due to inept financial management, and now depend for their solvency on tobacco tax revenue. E-cigarettes are a direct threat to this, and therefore to the power base of the people in charge.
  • The tobacco control industry is funded by pharma. In addition to the financial pressure on them to oppose e-cigs, the practical result of a Sweden scenario would mean many losing their jobs; two very good reasons to oppose harm reduction. So the TC crowd make all the noise, and get the legislation needed by pharma.

In Sweden, the number of smokers was reduced by about 40%, due to the widespread uptake of Snus. Now, 20% of the population are Snusers, and about 12% are smokers. This resulted in the smoking deathrate falling through the floor - a reduction of about 40%. Sweden has the lowest smoking-related deathrate in the developed world.

This was a disaster for pharma in Sweden, since all their smoking-related income collapsed. They are desperate to ensure this does not happen elsewhere - and especially in the USA, their biggest market. They have allocated as much money as it takes to fix the problem, and they do have enough: pharma's declared lobbying spend in 2010 was $267m, and they had more lobbyists in Washington than Congressmen.

The FDA works to pharma's agenda since they pay the bills. In addition, there is a revolving-door staff policy between the two, so that the same people work for both. Enough people in the know have stated that the idea that the FDA is an independent body working for public health is simply laughable - even the scientists who work for it will tell you that.

There are only three things that fix a problem like this:
  • The application of funds in the right places
  • A sudden, strange desire by the party in power to do the right thing, for unexplained reasons
  • The crushing weight of overwhelming public & media opinion, and it becomes a voting issue

It is a waste of time even considering the science or evidence in this situation - utterly and completely pointless. First you have to fix the corruption, or out-manouver the suborned. Any other approach is worthless.

The system is completely corrupt and any discussion of normality - evidence-based decisions and the like - is about as relevant as discussing farming on the planet Jupiter. And about as sane. We can continue to accumulate evidence, as available, but ultimately it is not going to fix the crux of the matter: the people with the power are being paid by the opposition.

It needs to be recognized that hundreds of thousands of lives don't count for a nickel here. Well, strictly speaking, that is wrong - they count for millions taken out of pharma's pocket.

This is exactly so!
Thanks for telling it like it is!

As for me, I have joined CASAA.
I am stocking up on all my hardware, e-liquids, bottles of nic & PG & VG.
I suggest that all vapers do the same!
 

mg7454

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A petition for doctors seems an interesting idea. Is there some wording that you or someone would like to suggest?

For one, consider:

Doctor's View on eCigs - YouTube

Another advocate: Dr. Gupta

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F7Pnd1GgOE&feature=related


I especially trust Dr. Vapor and think he would be a terrific advocate for this idea!
Watch this one!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flXtE8hb6cs&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OTWKn4WLa4&feature=related
 
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John Phoenix

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I think that's a very good idea. Bystander1 is already doing something similar to this in West Virginia.

I have posted a new thread called "Outside the Box - E-cig House Parties" in CASAA Forum
in CASAA Public Events and Campaigns. Looking for volunteers to work to fill out this idea.

Here is a link to the CPE&C forum within CASAAforum.org

CASAA Forum - Consumer Advocates for a Smoke-free Alternative Association • View forum - CASAA Public Events and Campaigns

Thank you, I posted a reply in that forum. I urge every CASAA member interested in this to check that forum thread.
 

Song

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Most people are simply not capable of understanding what a bunch of psychopaths we are dealing with here. Ironically, the ones that write " I am soooooooo mad" are the ones that REALLY don't get it.

Insanity has been defined as trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Why would the outcome be any different this time? The traditional methods simply will not work.This is going to require political activism, high-flying lawyers, for some people to get arrested, high-profile spokespeople, friends in the media, friends in Washington etc. etc. It's a game. You gotta learn how to play it and have the backing too.

This guy got it right, if these guys where in any way logical or reasonable, we wouldn't have this argument about about banning e-cigs to start with, reason isn't going to work with them. The only thing these guys understand is political power, political pressure and money

One of the better solutions to it is to have the CASAA turn into a political clout just as strong or stronger then the NRA, with that kind of clout and voter base, politicians will flock to support us for the voting power, and whatever admin wants to try to ban our rights to vape? Well they will think twice about it if they stand to lose millions of votes if they try. What do you guys think would happen in a general election if one side picks up us as a platform to show how foolish the current government is? About how ecigs stands to save millions of lives and save hundreds of billions of dollars to the healthcare system and how the current government that is so anti smoking and pro health that what there currently doing is going to force people back into analog cigarettes, therefore killing millions when they just found a better alternative?
 

John Phoenix

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Song, I agree with your premise but the kind of clout your talking about the NRA has, comes from years of support from the gun consumers, retailers, manufacturers plus having the right to bear arms from the Constitution on their side.. CASAA doesn't have anywhere near that kind of support. Like the NRA it would take lots of people in high places of power willing to support them in money and deed because they all share a strong belief in the product and what it means to the masses - in this case e-cigs. I would like to see that too but it would take years and lots more people behind this than we have now. Problem is we may or may not have that kind of time. What we might need is a miracle. Several very wealthy people willing to throw millions of dollars into ad campaigns. Here's a list of famous people who smoke. if they haven't already, lets get them to try e-cigs then ask if they would support the cause. (LOL easier said than done) Do any famous people smoke cigarettes if so who? - Yahoo! Answers We need the Pamela Anderson from PETA equivalent.
 

DC2

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Thank you, I posted a reply in that forum. I urge every CASAA member interested in this to check that forum thread.
This is what I posted in reply...

I think this is a very good idea, and quite feasible. Off the top of my head I can see two issues that would need to be resolved in order to make this effective. The first issue is how to locate the target audience and how to get the word out to them. The second issue is how to encourage those in attendance to carry the torch forward, which as far as I can tell would almost have to be by providing some type of profit incentive. Thoughts?
 

John Phoenix

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Right now this guy is our best bet...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-national-press-club-re-dot-proposed-ban.html

I wonder, has CASAA ever tried to contact him?

Question is what are we going for? We want the public to be more aware of the truths of e-cigs to help fight the misinformation and gov bureaucracy - would Cameron be a advocate for all e-cigs or would he just try to sell his own product? I read the original version of that post here John David Cameron, CEO of TheSafeCig Speaks at the National Press Club in Washington, DC but it doesn't say what Cameron actually talked about at the National Press Club. Is there a transcript someplace so we can see if he's a true advocate or if it was just TheSafeCig spin?

I replied to your other post at CASAA forums BTW.. bear with me, I keep strange hours.
 

mg7454

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Right now this guy is our best bet...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-national-press-club-re-dot-proposed-ban.html

I wonder, has CASAA ever tried to contact him?

If you are not already a CASAA member, why don't you join CASAA?
Ask them at the next Webinar session to be held sometime around the second week in January!
They are holding these meetings to get ideas and large numbers of people together to save our right to vape!
We need as many people to get involved as possible!
There were not nearly enough people at the Webinar tonight!

The ECF Forum is great, but it is probably not the best place to fight against the ban!
Just talking about it among ourselves will get us no-where!

Please...
Get involved or e-cigs will get banned!

:2c: Join & Support CASAA! :2c:
 

Paul_S

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Oct 12, 2011
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This is the holiday season. The first unrecognized National Vapors Day is coming soon next year. We are ready and willing to explain to family members, co-employees, and everyone interested in, WHAT THE H**L IS THAT! I recently gave a co-employee one of my e-cigs to try. I asked him when he was going to quite them stinky things and try something that he might like better. He has it and uses it. He still smokes analogs, but now, in between his vapor. This is how it begins. It is difficult in this economy to justify spending alot, But, knowing the people we are, we would give an analog to someone in need, as long as it wasn't our last one. Whats the difference with e-cigs? I'm sure we all have a few backups we can spare. Lets give the so-called "gift of life", and I'm sure the e-cig market can use the funds. How did the smoldering analog industry get its size. I used to walk miles to get mine. No gas in the car, but I had a pack of analogs.

Food for thought!
 

morepyro

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Vocalek wrote:

Perhaps the petition should have asked the president to assign the Consumer Products Safety Commission to regulate electronic cigarettes. As I understand the situation in the UK, the agency that regulates e-cigs is involved with trade, rather than medicine.

I fear we would fare no better with the CPSC than we have with the FDA. They also have a history of using "by any means necessary" tactics to further their agenda.

I will give an example from an industry I am familiar with. The CPSC is empowered to regulate consumer fireworks. They used that premise to attempt to control companies that supply chemicals to hobbyist fireworks manufacturers, who they claimed were only interested in making illegal bootleg "M-80's". Most of these suppliers were small businesses, with fewer than 10 employees. To comply with the CPSC demands would limit the suppliers to the point that they could not stay in business. If they failed to "voluntarily" comply, the CPSC filed legal action against them. Defending against the CPSC lawsuit would break the company, as the average defense took several years and cost over $200,000. Keep in mind that there was no evidence of criminal wrongdoing on the part of these companies, only the assertion that someone could do something illegal with their products. An analogy would be allergy medications with pseudoephedrine could be used to make illegal narcotics.

10 years ago there were several chemical suppliers to choose from, with healthy competition and a wide selection of products. The companies that were targeted by the CPSC have either gone out of business, or have a severely limited product line. They are struggling to stay alive, and you have to order from several vendors to get what you need. Eight years ago the CPSC held one company up as the example of how the other firms should keep records and conduct their business. Two years ago, the same company was served with their CPSC lawsuit, and to date has spent more than $300,000 defending against it.

The CPSC is slowly strangling the industry. If this trend continues, the only remaining option will be to order from wholesalers, who sell by the ton, not the pound. Imagine trying to order your favorite flavor of e-liquid, only to be told that the minimum order was now 5000ml, instead of 5 ml, and you get the picture of how this affects people.

There is no powerful lobby like BP or BT influencing the CPSC in this pursuit. Just the standard "If it saves one life..." and "For the children..." mindset that we encounter so often.

My apologies for the long-winded, borderline off-topic post, but I see many similarities in two activities that I am actively involved in. A relatively small number of participants, unknown to most of the public, made up almost exclusively of small businesses with no powerful lobbying organization (such as the NRA for firearms), or war chest of funds to defend against government lawyers.
 
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Bill Godshall

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Cool Breeze wrote:

It might be interesting if Consumer Reports or the Consumer's Union took a look at vaping products.

I strongly suspect that CU would simply repeat the false and misleading propaganda from the FDA and other e-cigarette prohibitionists.

Please remember that then FDA Deputy Commissioner Josh Sharfstein held the July 22, 2009 press conference (where he knowingly and intentionally deceived the public about e-cigarettes) two months after I and others sent Sharfstein and other FDA officials another online petition (signed by 10,000 people) urging the FDA to not ban e-cigarettes (with thousands of testimonials explaining how they quit smoking by switching to e-cigarettes).

Everyone at the FDA (and at CDC, NCI, CTFK, ACS, AHA, ALA, AMA, ANR, Legacy) knows that e-cigarettes (and other smokefree tobacco/nicotine products) are far less hazardous alternatives to cigarettes. The problem is that if any of those folks truthfully stated (that smokefree tobacco products are less hazardous than cigarettes), they'd be fired immediately for subordination and/or for publicly opposing the policy of their employer. That's why they refuse to tell the truth.
 
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mg7454

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I Think a viral video via youtube would be a good start in the campaign for casaa....something showing tons of us and our stories, just getting to the point and asking for help to defend the right to vape.
I joined CASAA
and
I was at the Webinar last night.
They ARE making a film to promote vaping!
They need more members & more support!
Join CASAA now people!
Support CASAA so they can help us fight OUR FIGHT!
Donate to CASAA!
I KNOW you are saving big $$$ vaping instead of smoking!
Both on cigarettes & future doctor & hospital bills, right?
Everyone should donate something to protect OUR right to vape!
If you just sit there and do nothing but talk.... :shock:
Come ON people!​
 

throatkick

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very glad to hear this mg!

The approach should be multifaceted:

1. make videos to gain support
2. make videos exposing lies
3. try to approach famous people
4. show up in major numbers in Maryland to speak to the FDA
5. There has got to be someone here that knows a journalist or two.
6. There's got to be someone here that knows a powerful, successful lawyer or two.

Anyway, you get the idea....
 
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