resistance vs voltage and juice taste

[Nepherael]

Hi guys i put this here because i figure the modders know a bit more about electricity correlations. Feel free to move this post if it should be elsewhere.

ok here's the deal. I have PS atomz cartomizers. I haven't tested resistance on these but i heard they were 3.0-3.4. I have used these on a kr808(true 3.7v) PSace, a VV evercool, a 5v, and a Riva.

I get much better flavor on every single flavor i've used on my kr808 and riva and they don't taste very well on higher voltages but using the same flavors on a ~1.5ohm lr306 tastes much better.

Now here's the question: Is there some correlation between the voltage you're putting through something with X resistance and the way the juice tastes? Because i would think i would get same flavor from an atomz in HV device as i would get from a lr306 in a riva but it tastes so much better in riva. So does anyone know any technical things that would cause this or is it just my preference?

I ask this because i am going to build a wetbox type mod as i've decided for some reason my juice doesn't taste that good in my evercool top feeder and i'm deciding whether to make it 14500 3.7v or VV evercool style.
(this could be for any number of reasons, it's strawberry which is very light, it's a fresh batch from TV that hasn't had any steep time so i dunno it just hasn't tasted right)

Thank you very much ahead of time
Neph

 

[Java_Az]

Resistance is a key factor but ultimately i believe it boils down to the temperature of the atomizer also what juice your vaping. With my 2.7 ohm atomizers i find the sweet spot around 4.2 to 4.8 volts depending on the juice i am vaping. If i put in a different value atomizer as far as ohms that would change my preferred voltage. A higher ohm atomizer would need more voltage to get to the same temp and a lower ohm would need less voltage. Why it is tasting different is the temp the atomizer is getting to while vaping. If i crank my variable up to 5.5 volts i hate it, the vaper sucks big time and on the other hand if i vape at 3.7 volts it is too low for me. A LR atomizer @ 3.7 is pretty close to what i like. But to answer your question Yes it is voltage + resistance = temperature of the atomizer. Other things could have a factor also like how much air the style atomizer lets threw it while puffing on it. If your sure you like 3.7 volts build that, but if it was me i would want to variable even though it is less efficient there is no reason you cant run it @ 3.7 or 3.9 maybe even 3.5 it will give you the option to fine tune your vaping voltage. Also you might get one style atomizer that you might like higher voltages so you would be able to turn up the volts.

 

[Gummy Bear]

Add to this, surface area of the wick/coil. the amount of juice in contact with the heat source and air flow.
all of these things have an effect. change just one thing and you change the atomization balance. That will effect the throat hit, vapor production and taste.

Altering the surface tension of the liquid controls the droplet size. This is constantly being altered in several ways. 1, viscosity of fluid. 2, energy ( end result is the temp.) 3, quantity, (Area of the wick/coil,,, fluid in contact with the heat,,, fluid flow rate, ie: wicking). 4, Pressure doesn't really come into play with PVs atomization but air flow kinda comes into play here with density of the vapor.

We modders play with energy all the time with variable voltage units or different resistance of the atty.s. We use energy to adjust for the different viscosity of fluid (or subtle flavor additives, PG/VG and such) . Quantity is easily seen when an atty is flooded or dry, (either extreme will not taste good). But it plays a part in the volume of smoke produced. We see this a lot on the video reviews by watching someone blow out a ton of vapor when they exhale. (smaller droplet size= dryer vapor that doesn't stick to anything that it comes in contact with like my lungs or the air). It all goes back to how to alter the surface tension to find a balance that each of us would like. There is a happy balance that we all look for that's different for each of us and for different e-juices/flavor additives. ,,, and when we find it, damn it's soon gone, because one of those values just went out of balance.

surface tension of the liquids we use:
PG= 43.50
VG=64.00
Ethanol=22.10 (everclear,vodka)
All specs are @ 20c. there are of course temp coefficients for each.

 

[Nepherael]

Wow that was major helpful and informative. I know exactly what you mean.

On a side note I have a 901 at about 3ohms I broke in on this evercool and it tastes good. And I have a 510 that came with my riva that I'm sure is lower resistance. No matter what I do with the VV I can't get the same flavor from the 510 which is a little weird to me. I'm just not sure why. You would think that higher resistance u just dial up the voltage and you get same temp/burn as lower resistance on a lower voltage but I can't seem to ever get the same flavor from both of them while compensating voltage for resistance.

 

[Gummy Bear]

It's not all about the power, there's more to a good vape than voltage and resistance.

A good example is a test I run with 2 of my PVs.
PV1= 4volts, 1.7 ohm atty = 2.35 amps= 9.410 watts----- Standard 510 LR atty
PV2= 4.85v , 2.5 ohm atty = 1.94 amps= 9.409 watts-----10mm longer 510 mega atty

That's about as close as I can get them to match up with each other. same e-juice. Both attys are the same diameter
So one would think that they should vape about the same. Wrong, the 4.8 volt 2.5 ohm atty will blow tons more vapor.
but the taste is about the same. the longer atty has a bit cooler vapor temp.

As for what is making the difference, I don't know. I haven't taken them apart to see if the atty coils are very much different but that would be my guess. The gauge of wire, the number of and diameter of the coil loops. perhaps the wick too.

 

[Nepherael]

There we go. That is exactly what I was getting at and trying to confirm. That is how its working for me right now. So basically I'm guessing I'm gonna stay on higher voltages for sure and just try and test out different makes of attys/cartos with different resistance to find out what I like the most. Just sucks for attys when you're in the "find what you like" phase because they are amazingly more expensive than a carto.

Thank you again. I'm not that good with power stuff as far as conversions and what you just did but I understand once I'm told and you really brought some stuff to light for me.

 

[Gummy Bear]

If you want some more tech stuff, google up artificial smoke and smoke machines and read about the hang time of the smoke and how the size of the droplet affects the appearance and density. Their industry has been researching particle size a lot longer than the e-cig industry has. And for sure they don't care about taste but the physics are the same. From a physics standpoint, After we get a better handle on just why one atty makes a different amount/taste of the "artificial smoke" than another, then we will be better able to fine tune a mod to just what we want. mostly because taste is such a subjective thing. We are all looking for something different. Some like a strong throat hit, others, like me, want a strongish throat hit on the way in and a good taste on the way out with a ton of smoke to play with). I just love to play with the smoke as I exhale it, puff out some and re-inhale and blow out some more two or three times. I have read how some people look for more taste on the exhale than on the inhale. (me too). At this point we don't have any idea of just what the particle size is from a PV, much less how to control it. The makers of the different attys don't either. There are tools out there that could tell us this but I don't know of anyone doing this kind of research. (except me, and I'm not a scientist. just a very curious modder that doesn't have access to them).

 

[WillyB]

It's not all about the power, there's more to a good vape than voltage and resistance.

A good example is a test I run with 2 of my PVs.
PV1= 4volts, 1.7 ohm atty = 2.35 amps= 9.410 watts----- Standard 510 LR atty
PV2= 4.85v , 2.5 ohm atty = 1.94 amps= 9.409 watts-----10mm longer 510 mega atty

That's about as close as I can get them to match up with each other. same e-juice. Both attys are the same diameter
So one would think that they should vape about the same. Wrong, the 4.8 volt 2.5 ohm atty will blow tons more vapor.
but the taste is about the same. the longer atty has a bit cooler vapor temp.

Great info, but your watts comparisons and conclusions may also be atty manufacturer construction based. The various 1.5Ω LR atties, depending on the manufacturer, all have different vape characteristics.

 

[Gummy Bear]

Yes, that is my point. That one just can't simply dial in a given wattage and = the same vape.
However the big question is just what makes the difference?

 

[roadrash]

Originally Posted by roadrash
It's (510) particle size is much smaller thus a much dryer artificial smoke that doesn't stick to everything.

Gummy, does the 510 atty still have its mesh?
yes, why?

And just to beat the dead horse one more time:
The Army and guys that build artificial smoke machines have been studying this issue a lot longer than the E-cig industry has. There is really no difference between an artificial smoke machine and a PV, other than the amount of vapor produced and the flavorings. Go here and read about the difference between wet or dry smoke (vapor).
http://www.smokemachines.com/QandA.htm#6
in particular their last Q&A. I'll post it here. When you get to the part about "the greater its versatility for ducted applications" think LUNGS.

17: How do I judge artificial smoke quality?
The quality of artificial smoke is primarily a function of the diameter of its aerosol particles. The smaller the particles, the brighter the smoke’s appearance, the longer its ‘hang time’, the more multidirectional its distribution, the greater its versatility for ducted applications artificial smoke machine, and the deeper its penetration into tiny cracks. The particles of Corona "smoke" measure between 0.2 and 0.3 microns in diameter – the smallest particles produced by any standard generator in the industry (A micron is one thousandth of a millimeter).

I was thinking that with the mesh still in place on the 510 atty, the juice sieves through the mesh to the wick and when vaped the mesh also breaks up the vapor molecules on the way out. with the center hole in the cup, the air draw would come straight up the attiy through the mesh breaking up the particles Giving a dryer hit.

 

[Gummy Bear]

that sounds about right. I wonder about the diam. of a coil and the ceramic too. to much surface area and at some point you gonna need some pressure to break up the liquid.

 

[WillyB]

I was thinking that with the mesh still in place on the 510 atty, the juice sieves through the mesh to the wick and when vaped the mesh also breaks up the vapor molecules on the way out.

Sounds good, but many drippers prefer to remove the bridge/mesh and sometimes pull the wick.

 

[roadrash]

Sounds good, but many drippers prefer to remove the bridge/mesh and sometimes pull the wick.

Yes, I did that also. Seems to get better vapor and taste and TH, but the molecules may be larger, letting more moisture into the lungs.
If I have a good vapin day on a LR atty with no mesh or wick. At the end of the day I can barely breath. not like with ciggies though. No rasping, rattle of death. just a real shortness of breath. Although @ 10 to 12 mil a day I never put it down which may attribute to it some. LOL

 

[Gummy Bear]

I too go through 5 to 10 ml/day. and I know just what you mean.

Just a bit of rambling:

Think about a spray gun, it has 2 adjustments. one for more or less air and one for more or less liquid.
Crank them both wide open and you should get a good spray that puts out a lot of paint vapor. but now if you only turn down the air your going to get a spray that is too wet. The wick rate is not that adjustable after an atty is built. and that is = to the liquid adjustment on the paint gun. the wattage is = to the air adjustment. and the viscosity of the juice is the paint. Yea we do adj. that a bit, but some people don't. With a PV we use electrical energy to make an adjustment. either with atty resistance or battery voltages. but it is still only one adjustment, "Energy". Without puff puff, puffing we can only take in so much air. so what makes for throat hit or amount of vapor is particle density. with smaller particles we can get more of them into the limited space of our mouth/lungs. That's easy to understand but not so easy to adjust when we only have energy and to some small degree viscosity of the juice to play with. Something else is just how sensitive is this adjustment. The difference of only 1/2 a volt or 1/2 ohm makes a big difference in the vapor. What does a 1/2 mm of coil diam. do? or a 1/8 mm wider spacing between coil wraps do? There are maybe 1/2 a dozen things that will effect our vapor and only 2 or 3 things that we can adj.
The Genesis atty is a good example of this. The mesh count, wire resistance/diam., the SS wick's coil diam. and density, number of coil wraps and their spacing. Just how much effect does a 1.5mm coil diam. have over a 1.8mm coil when it comes to wick wetness? Raidy has told us the sizes to use to make one but, then we are back to how subjective taste is. He may have shown us how to build a big 'ol monster 4 barrel carb. and we are trying to use it on a 4 cyl. engine, (our dinky little lungs).

 

[Nepherael]

That is very interesting. It brings a lot of things to my mind that haven't been thought about. Unfortunately for me I will probably never mess with any type of atty mod. I made an evercool and I'm thinking about DIY juice (if I had more than a budget for 1oz of juice a month I would have by now). So It's just gonna be variable voltage and juice that I can adjust. Seems like if I built a few attys of my own I could tailor my entire vaping experience as I please

 

[Fernand]

I was thinking about the mega eGo atomizer vs. the 510. Obviously the mega has a bigger coil, but the resistance is about the same. If the resistance is the same, the bigger coil using a thicker wire has to be longer. Then for a given voltage the amperage flowing will be the same, and the Power applied, being wattage, is voltage multiplied by amperage, hence also the same. Yet intuitively, such a coil would be expected to produce more thermal excitation, on more wick, and more opportunity to make vapor. Yet the watts are the same?! Leaving aside issues of particle size, it's like we've run out of parameters to describe the difference. What am I missing here? The extent of the surface? The concentration of the thermal excitation, like we saw with closeness of the windings on the Genisis? And leaving aside the wicking effectiveness, the wick's mesh size or fiber count defines the size of the micro-domains, like separate little pots that the liquid is heated in. Plus as liquid is ejected and removed, each little pot also acts like a tube that capillary action is effectively applying pressure to refill, much like the regions on a leaf in the sun. A lot of stuff going on in what would seem to be a simple little resistive heater. Raidy's 2 dimensional graph for Vapour and Throat Hit would probably need a few more dimensions, or has he considered the particle size? It would be logical to design a different liquid for different atomizers.

 

[Gummy Bear]

Fernand,
It seems that you understand what I have so poorly been trying to explain.
I do think that Raidy has given much thought to this entire process. He is very clever. I do also think that he very much likes the results he gets now with the Genesis atty. Not just because he was the one to invent it. I'm sure there were plenty of configurations that he didn't like too. I have found the taste is not for me, but others here seem to love it. (some however are seeing a potential problem with the condensation). I will sideline the Genesis project until the "Part 2" segment. by adding PWM electronics to the big picture there may be more to this atty than I can see with just line voltage going to it. I will pursue a large tank mod for the C-E2 V4. It does everything that I want except last all day.

 

[Switched]

That is very interesting. It brings a lot of things to my mind that haven't been thought about. Unfortunately for me I will probably never mess with any type of atty mod. I made an evercool and I'm thinking about DIY juice (if I had more than a budget for 1oz of juice a month I would have by now). So It's just gonna be variable voltage and juice that I can adjust. Seems like if I built a few attys of my own I could tailor my entire vaping experience as I please

The best thing of a VV mod (moving away from techno) is the ability to vary the voltage. Although 4.2V might work one day, it maybe better at 4.3V the next day and 4.1V the following. It also depends on the time of day as well. This argument is of course using the same liquid and atty. A caveat not discussed to date is the maturity of the liquid vaped. A mature liquid is like a fine wine. Both fresh liquid and wine taste young and hence voltage will need to be varied accordingly. The latter is important as you embark on the DIY train.

Also, as the atty gets older voltage will also need adjustment. Our prefered settings are exactly that, a starting point with attys of varying resistance, then we fine tune for the situation. That IMO is the flexibility that VV offers us.

 

[Fernand]

I fear Variable Voltage is like having a car with a gas pedal, but no steering wheel or gearshift. If you drive, it's better than not having it, but not much of a final solution. I rather like public transport, like a train.

I'm not sure artificial flavors dissolved in propylene glycol and glycerine sitting in polypropylene bottles resembles the aging of wine too much. There's some evaporation and some interactions of course.

I thought that since we fully control the juice composition, it's a better control point than voltage. Gummy, have you tried looking at what it takes to make the most high-persistence fog? Is it possible Raidy prefers a specific type? Or is condensation an objective across the board sign of excess particle size?

 

[Gummy Bear]

Gummy, have you tried looking at what it takes to make the most high-persistence fog?

.3 microns should hang for hours. but I have no clue what micron size would be now in use among the various atty makers.