........ revealing some of how the biz works. Wow.

[supermarket]

I am not saying it is right but I do understand WHY this happens and why the manufacturers want the retail prices held up. Without minimum MSRP any company could sell the products at any price. This is good for the consumer but ONLY in the short term. What inevitably happens when this is allowed to continue is that the financially stronger resellers will severely undercut the competition. Prices will fall to or in some cases BELOW Wholesale costs until only a few, or even one of the resellers is left in business. At that point the survivor can jack the prices up to anywhere they want and the price gouging would be bad for the consumer and the manufacturer. As soon as a new reseller opens shop the original survivor can drop prices again to a point that the new competitor cannot sustain and they too are out of business. This is also bad for the manufacturer because they end up with less direct customers and their financial future then becomes directly linked to them. Minimum pricing from the manufacturer helps prevent this from happening.

Yea, that is cute in theory, but I HIGHLY doubt that is what is happening in this case.

fast tech isn't selling product at CHEAPER than they are purchasing it for, in an attempt to monopolize the e-cig industry and starve off the other online e-cig vendors.


1) They are probably buying in MUCH, MUCH, MUCH larger quantities than most e-cig vendors, and therefore getting it cheaper/can sell it cheaper.

2) fasttech is based in China......I'm sure much of the stock they get is manufactured in china as well, so they are probably avoiding shipping costs that many US vendors have to deal with.

3) Since they are based in China, obviously their employees aren't being paid the same as US employees. They save there.




Anyway, whether or not they are doing anything wrong, is strictly subjective, and opinion. Innokin threatened legal action, and by ALL means, good for them. Let them both battle it out in court, that is their issue, if that is what Innokin wants.


I say more power to them. E-cig products are over-prices as is.....I'm glad to company that is able to offer better prices.

 

[ScottP]

Yea, that is cute in theory, but I HIGHLY doubt that is what is happening in this case.

Fast tech isn't selling product at CHEAPER than they are purchasing it for, in an attempt to monopolize the e-cig industry and starve off the other online e-cig vendors.


1) They are probably buying in MUCH, MUCH, MUCH larger quantities than most e-cig vendors, and therefore getting it cheaper/can sell it cheaper.

2) fasttech is based in China......I'm sure much of the stock they get is manufactured in china as well, so they are probably avoiding shipping costs that many US vendors have to deal with.

3) Since they are based in China, obviously their employees aren't being paid the same as US employees. They save there.




Anyway, whether or not they are doing anything wrong, is strictly subjective, and opinion. Innokin threatened legal action, and by ALL means, good for them. Let them both battle it out in court, that is their issue, if that is what Innokin wants.


I say more power to them. E-cig products are over-prices as is.....I'm glad to company that is able to offer better prices.

While all of what you say is probably true in the case of Fasttech, I was saying why this practice in general was started. Also to note a LOT of what Fasttech sells ARE knockoffs. For instance, by their own admission their Evods are NOT Kanger brand Evods. I am pretty sure that Fasttech has close ties with a local factory who makes most of their products. In other words most of it is, essentially "factory direct", which is always going to be cheaper.

 

[holly9000]

VJ is da man

 

[Sm0kyBlue]

Okies.. think I missed the weblog.. who can pop up a transcription??

 

[supermarket]

While all of what you say is probably true in the case of Fasttech, I was saying why this practice in general was started. Also to note a LOT of what Fasttech sells ARE knockoffs. For instance, by their own admission their Evods are NOT Kanger brand Evods. I am pretty sure that Fasttech has close ties with a local factory who makes most of their products. In other words most of it is, essentially "factory direct", which is always going to be cheaper.

Yea, as far as in general practice, you are right about everything you said. I just meant with fasttech, I didn't see that to be the likely issue.

Also, I'm kind of split when it comes to "knock-offs" mainly because I've read that Joyetech and some other companies in the FIRST place knocked off designs that were brought to THEM to manufacture. Who knows?

When it comes to China, business practices are different than here where I live, in the US. So considering fasttech is in China, I wouldn't doubt most of the stuff is "knock off". That doesn't matter one bit to me, HOWEVER, I WOULD hope the quality would be the same. I've heard nothing about good things from fast tech products....HOWEVER, I have heard of people say things like not to get Vivi Nova knock offs, because they are more likely to leak, for example.


Anyway, I haven't ordered from fasttech, but I'm likely considering it, since the prices are so much better. If I HAD the money, I would just order inside the US. For shipping reasons and otherwise. When money gets tight , however.....

 

[HauntedMyst]

Interesting thread. I just bought a charger from Fasttech for $19.95 with free shipping. The same charger from my favor local vaping store, $49.95 + tax and from one of my favorite online vendors, $27.99 + shipping. Obviously, fasttech won out. The item was a commodity. None of the stores would have provided any service on the part so lowest price was the driving factor. On the other hand, I've purchased 2 hand made drip tips that ran close to $90 together and love them because they are hand made, beautiful things.

While we all love the consumer driven, lowest price mentality which allows us to have more stuff, we all hate a part of it as well. We want to support the local mom and pop shop but then also shop at Walmart or Target for our commodity crap.

 

[SouthernBliss]

While I really would love to support US shops and manufactures I just can't see that as a good reason for them to um.. ah.. take advantage of me price wise. If two pretty much identical products are made in the same country (same wage scale, similar prices for space rental and other overheads) but one is going to cost 3 times the other product then someone somewhere is taking advantage. In theory the cheaper product should be clearly inferior but thus far that just is not the case with Fastteck products I have ordered. More offensive is the reality that way to many US vendors are buying the exact same product that are no name or knock off and are charging twice as much. I can get over them having to charge x price for y brand. That I can actually understand to a point. But charging me $18 for the exact same noname product that I could get from fasttech for $7 with free shipping really urks me.

 

[Racehorse]

that way to many US vendors are buying the exact same product that are no name or knock off and are charging twice as much. I can get over them having to charge x price for y brand. That I can actually understand to a point. But charging me $18 for the exact same noname product that I could get from fasttech for $7 with free shipping really urks me.

So the US vendor should keep inventory, order it, unpack it, then take your order and ship it for the same price they got it for?

There is a lot of labor involved by any US vendor who gets their stuff from overseas. They have to buy in large quantity, and are also going to be "stuck" with inventory that doesn't sell. Which, at the fast rate the ecig technology has been changing, is a very real concern. They also have to buy packaging and postal supplies, labels, bubble wrap, etc. and perhaps pay an employee to get orders out, man the phone lines, email, etc.

For my computer needs, I pretty much just go on ebay and buy what I need like a new keyboard for my Dell laptop. They are the same keyboards that Dell is going to send me, because that is where they are manufactured. I just get it more direct if I order from China. Of course, I also accept the risk that it will be more difficult to return, longer shipping time, language barriers in communications should something go wrong. So I might buy a cordless phone battery or items that are smaller and lower priced that way.

If I am going to purchase a big ticket item, I shop local retail.

I like having as many options as possible.

If I were a craftsperson selling something like hand-painted silk scarves, I would definitely purchase 500 or 1,000 plain white silk scarves from China. Since I have to dye them and paint them anyway, the artistic "value added" is all in my labor, so there would be no reason for me to pay a lot for the raw material to begin with.

 

[gbojar]

While I really would love to support US shops and manufactures I just can't see that as a good reason for them to um.. ah.. take advantage of me price wise. If two pretty much identical products are made in the same country (same wage scale, similar prices for space rental and other overheads) but one is going to cost 3 times the other product then someone somewhere is taking advantage. In theory the cheaper product should be clearly inferior but thus far that just is not the case with Fastteck products I have ordered. More offensive is the reality that way to many US vendors are buying the exact same product that are no name or knock off and are charging twice as much. I can get over them having to charge x price for y brand. That I can actually understand to a point. But charging me $18 for the exact same noname product that I could get from fasttech for $7 with free shipping really urks me.

The point of the op, or Joe's blurb was regarding manufacturers requiring a minimum msrp that they must sell to the consumer for. This isn't about US retailers jacking up prices as it is about manufacturers upholding their policies and US retailers' hands being tied. If you read Joe's story he explains Fasttech isn't buying from the manufacturers, they are buying them from retailers who are charging Fasttech a small mark up vs US consumers a huge mark up, so if you look at it from that perspective the retailers are doing us a favor by selling to Fasstech.

 

[KerryK]

That was a fascinating Blog to read! Thanks for the heads up!

This guy nailed it:

[–]Bustopher26/12/2012 4 points 1 day ago

Innokin is located in Shenzhen the epicenter and wild west of consumer electronics. Their products are unique enough that I don't think they have been copied like Joyetechs stuff. I haven't seen anything like theirs on the usual places that carry the knockoffs.

What usually happens is that they hire people to work a full shift and produce what they produce. If it's more than the order it gets sold to someone else(Fasttech). Innokin probably doesn't have a clue or didn't care(sold to Chinese domestic market) until blogs, forums and here posted the MVP deal. Then a vendor complains to Innokin and they put out a press release.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were stag sales like the article says or after hours sales. The one thing I don't think they are are clones/copy's/fakes. Unless you are some big company like Apple with Foxconn. Your product will go out the back or front door without your knowledge. A company located in Shenzhen like Innokin knows this.

 

[kiwivap]

So the US vendor should keep inventory, order it, unpack it, then take your order and ship it for the same price they got it for?

There is a lot of labor involved by any US vendor who gets their stuff from overseas. They have to buy in large quantity, and are also going to be "stuck" with inventory that doesn't sell. Which, at the fast rate the ecig technology has been changing, is a very real concern. They also have to buy packaging and postal supplies, labels, bubble wrap, etc. and perhaps pay an employee to get orders out, man the phone lines, email, etc.

All of that applies to Fasttech too though - they have to do the same things. They are not manufacturers. They are running an online retail business. The difference shouldn't be about shipping - since Fasttech ship to customers for free so they add a cost to what they do.
I think the difference is that Fasttech have a large online business, probably buy in bulk, and sell worldwide. Whereas a smaller vendor doesn't buy such a large amount of stock and so marks it up higher to make a profit that way. BTW - some of these smaller "mom and pop" shops are doing very well and can be turning over a million a year or more.

 

[kiwivap]

I wouldn't be surprised if they were stag sales like the article says or after hours sales. The one thing I don't think they are are clones/copy's/fakes.

Fasttech have advised me the SVDs are original Innokin.

 

[ScottP]

The point of the op, or Joe's blurb was regarding manufacturers requiring a minimum msrp that they must sell to the consumer for. This isn't about US retailers jacking up prices as it is about manufacturers upholding their policies and US retailers' hands being tied. If you read Joe's story he explains Fasttech isn't buying from the manufacturers, they are buying them from retailers who are charging Fasttech a small mark up vs US consumers a huge mark up, so if you look at it from that perspective the retailers are doing us a favor by selling to Fasstech.

No ........ said basically that "They are buying large amounts of product using fake front companies" and then selling them on their website at what ever price they want instead of MSRP. They are not getting their stuff from retailers. That is probably true for any of the name brand stuff that they carry. Fasttech also either has close ties with, or operates a manufacturing facility in which makes all of the cloned items they sell. For instance the new Evods they sell are clones. These items are basically "factory direct" and of course can be insanely cheap.

 

[kiwivap]

Fasttech also either has close ties with, or operates a manufacturing facility in which makes all of the cloned items they sell.

Alibaba is full of wholesale knock offs, You don't need close ties or to operate a manufacturing facility. The reality is that the price of those items, even the originals, is very low to make. There are US vendors selling knock offs too, and vendors in other countries.
Can we keep in mind Vapor Joe was speculating. He's right on set MRP - but he was not giving factual inside knowledge about Fasttech. The set pricing happens across the industry - its not anything new. It happened with the Vamos when VaporBreak undercut other vendors and there were vendor complaints..

 

[gbojar]

No ........ said basically that "They are buying large amounts of product using fake front companies" and then selling them on their website at what ever price they want instead of MSRP. They are not getting their stuff from retailers. That is probably true for any of the name brand stuff that they carry. Fasttech also either has close ties with, or operates a manufacturing facility in which makes all of the cloned items they sell. For instance the new Evods they sell are clones. These items are basically "factory direct" and of course can be insanely cheap.

With all due respect, I believe this statement refers to retailers in addition to "fake fronts", or more specifically retailers creating the fake fronts themselves in addition to their normal retail practice, and selling to Fasttech. ... "Another company had to buy them from Innokin and sold them to Fast Tech because they didn't want to deal with these ridiculous fixed price practices." If not, to whom is he referring that are creating these false fronts other than retailers? i may be wrong, but I don't think he was saying Fasttech is creating fake stores as your post implies.

 

[Johnny Vonce]

Thanks for the information I didn't know that

 

[SolidStateLogic]

AWWW Snap! If your into this subject check out this podcast/radio show that featured vapor joe as the guest. Some of these vapers whine like children and Joe Handles them like a boss. LULZ Vapor Joes Click Bang Radio Interview

 

[MrStik]

I will retract the unheard of statement, but it does seem a little over the top with the amount of product most of the retailers are selling. Markups like that are more normal for things that don't sell in big volume so the need for big markups is there. With fasttech growing bigger the days of way overpriced may soon come to an end.

MAP pricing on things that do not sell volumes? I won't go into a high level look at an industry, but two specific products in general. The Galaxy S4 sold 10 million units in less than 3 months. Any iPhone will sell 2-5 million in just release day. These items are sold at MAP pricing and lowered with subsidizing. I do not know the exact markups, but if Samsung and Apple can boast upwards of 12 billion profit in a quarter, it is safe to say the markups are high (that profit is not exclusive to those 2 products, but they make a large chunk of it.)

 

[stormwench]

As others have said its how 'capitalism' and the free market has come to work in the modern times. Not that the old days were any better. Some of the games that wholesalers/retailers played on the consumer were so outrageous laws had to be past to stop the practice's.

I don't know that you could even call it a secret, although dirty might work once you notice whats going on and then get upset about it as a consumer. Its done every day to all consumers in any market. Even in your grocery store - that store brand may very well be prepared and canned by the same producer using the same ingredients and same equipment and the only difference is the label and the price. That brand name can can only be priced within a certain range not matter how low the cost was from the wholesaler while the same thing under the generic or store brand can sell for whatever margin the retailer wants. The brand name sells to many over the store brand because of the advertising out there to make you think it is better or the one to buy, and the manufacture counts on that, but either way they get their money as they probably are charging the wholesaler the same price. Granted you can also get some generic labels that are made by and off company and don't taste or perform as well and that ends up giving all but the brand name label a bad name.

Of course most consumers don't have the time or the wherewithal to chase down the store brand's origin to see if they are buying the same product or not so go with the brand in face of making sure they get the 'real thing', and most never stop to think that maybe that product that looks exactly the same is not a second rate rip off but the same exact product. We have been trained to believe in 'brands'.

the only problem with all this is that the 'brand' label does mean you are getting the authentic product. The generic label can be the authentic product or a rip off - hard to know without a lot of investigation and you might not even be able to get the real story so you may buy the off brand at risk. You can limit your risk, and expense, by getting a off label somewhere that has open returns - if you get it and its obviously not the same product under a store label then you return it and lose nothing but your time and trouble.

 

[kiwivap]

Its done every day to all consumers in any market. Even in your grocery store - that store brand may very well be prepared and canned by the same producer using the same ingredients and same equipment and the only difference is the label and the price.

Yep, and both can be sitting on the same shelf next to each other - they are where I shop all the time.