Salt?

[killnine]

I'm also thinking that after all is said and done, fooling with PH or additions of salt might be more work than something simpler, like a touch of lemon or a touch of good vanilla extract, which have the potential to have the same enhancement values without the negatives. I hate guessing though, and would love to see some experimentation. The safety of electrolysing salt in a water solution would definitely be an issue, but I'm wondering what affects the same in PG or VG would occur, or if salt would even create a conductive environment in these solvents.

 

[Lyndagayle]

I've been using salt in some of my liquids, mainly the bakery type flavors. I bought some pure sea salt with NO additives and mixed it in a bottle of PG. Most of the salt never dissolved but I still got the salty flavor. It takes very little of the solution to add that salty touch needed. I haven't noticed any negative effects on my atomizers and haven't seen any residue. It does help enhance certain flavors. I also use apple cider vinegar in all my juices to help maintain flavor.

 

[ajventi]

No, I did mean to say raise the PH, or increase the alkalinity in other words. This generally boosts flavor, or at least allows them to spread out a bit. A higher PH will mean possibly lowering some of the bright notes however. Too high of a PH would also cut some of the antibacterial properties of a low PH. I doubt it would matter much in the presence of high concentrations of PG or VG though. Of course I have yet to test any of this, but I do know that a higher PH usually means broader flavors. This would be counterproductive in an acidic mixture though, like citrus based, etc. I don't know how many of our juices actually have acidic mixtures in them though. It would be interesting to test some different kinds of juices. This theory about raising PH would really only apply to sweeter juices in my opinion.

Interesting, I just know about food and beverages, and how acid almost always enhances flavor. That's why lemon juice, vinegar and wine are so important in the kitchen, and can often be substituted. I haven't started using acid in my DIY, though I'm going to experiment with vinegar soon. I use very large amounts of Citric and Tartaric at work, but I'm hesitant to use them until I can find out a bit more information on their safety in vaping.

So far the only thing I've been able to come up with to raise PH would be either sodium carbonate or chalk. I think either would probably be safer than straight salt, but they still present the issues of crystalization or calcium deposits.

Salt will not raise pH, Potassium Carbonate or Potassium bicarbonate will both raise ph, and usually with less reaction than Sodium carbonate Here's a place I use when I want small amounts of stuff like this. In my work I cannot use anything with Sodium for health concerns. I don't have very much experience raising pH with anything other than bacteria, which probably is not possible with e-liquid.

I'm also thinking that after all is said and done, fooling with PH or additions of salt might be more work than something simpler, like a touch of lemon or a touch of good vanilla extract, which have the potential to have the same enhancement values without the negatives. I hate guessing though, and would love to see some experimentation. The safety of electrolysing salt in a water solution would definitely be an issue, but I'm wondering what affects the same in PG or VG would occur, or if salt would even create a conductive environment in these solvents.

I suspect salt will still be conductive. Both PG and VG and Ethanol can never be totally water free, they are also all hygroscopic so will have a tendency to gain water with air exposure.

It's funny you brought up the pH issue, I had thought about testing pH since I remember hearing the 'big innovation' that happened to invent cigarette tobacco was lowering the smoke pH, I guess tobacco has a high pH and that's why cigar, and pipe tobacco can't be comfortably inhaled. That made me wonder if there was a connection between pH and Throat hit, or the feeling of vapor in your lungs.

 

[GrimmTech]

Just a thought, soy sauce would make a nice salty flavor Also I noticed WizardLabs has bacon flavor. Has anyone tried it? Any salt flavor at all?

 

[daddytwigs]

Not to throw a wrench in this but
We use one of those evaporators in our home, and to get it to produce more steam I throw a 'pinch' of sea salt in it. Something about specific heat properties of salt water idono
Having an extensive culinary background myself, I get the whole flavor enhancing, softening, mellowing properties of salt.i don't think the atomizer gets hot enough, even with electricity, to split the NACL, but would the addition of salt produce more vapor?

 

[ajventi]

Not to throw a wrench in this but
We use one of those evaporators in our home, and to get it to produce more steam I throw a 'pinch' of sea salt in it. Something about specific heat properties of salt water idono
Having an extensive culinary background myself, I get the whole flavor enhancing, softening, mellowing properties of salt.i don't think the atomizer gets hot enough, even with electricity, to split the NACL, but would the addition of salt produce more vapor?

That's funny, I do the same thing with mine. I have really hard water, and somewhere I heard a pinch of salt helps if it doesn't produce vapor. I have to put salt in mine or it doesn't work. I actually was cleaning mine a few weeks ago because the years of calcium deposits were so built up it wasn't working anymore. I was thinking if I couldn't fix it I'd have to rip it apart and find the atty in it. But After some poking shaking and rinsing I got enough lime out that it works like a champ again.

I can't imagine the heating coil is not insulated (electrically) we would have probably heard of a handful of accidental electrocutions. I know the slit on the top of mine where the vapor comes out is surrounded by a hard surface that gets very hot. I think it may be ceramic which would both serve to wick the water and insulate the coil.

But I don't understand how the salt increases the vapor production.

Also I have an electrostatic vaporizer which I can't use since it leaves a fine white powder of calcium in the room due to the hard water. Just a thought but if they could make an electrostatic PV maybe it would give a more consistent flavor to the vape.

 

[Fishtec]

Dissolving salt will not be dangerous providing you do it in the correct solvent which I am sure it would have to be you might have luck dissolving it in pg or vg but not enough to actually fast anything my concern with dissolving salt is that when it hits your heating element the rest of the liquid will turn to vapor and the salt won't and clog up your atomiser extremely quickly you can indeed get salt flavouring in liquid form but again as salt is a mineral I'm assuming its purely dissolved salt in some sort of liquid base you will have the same problem good look with your hunt though and I shall certainly be bookmarking this post to see how you get along

 

[GrimmTech]

Have been doing a little reading this afternoon. Back to what I posted earlier, we NEED to know if there is a possibility of electrical exchange between the coil and any metal that the juice may be touching. If there is any path at all electrolysis will occur and produce chlorine gas. (IF salt is present) I cant imagine inhaling chlorine gas in any minute amount is okay. I'm relatively new to the hobby so I only have disposable clearomizers that cannot be opened or serviced without breaking them open of I would have already performed this test. This will probably not end the quest for salty flavor, only force it in a direction away from dissolved salt.

 

[GrimmTech]

Couldn't stand it any longer. I pulled the rubber top off of my atomizer and got a probe down to the coil. Even turned up to 6v, there are 0vdc and 0ma from the coil to the metal in the tank. My meter reads down to 1mv and 1ma. Feel free to vape salt water

 

[ajventi]

Couldn't stand it any longer. I pulled the rubber top off of my atomizer and got a probe down to the coil. Even turned up to 6v, there are 0vdc and 0ma from the coil to the metal in the tank. My meter reads down to 1mv and 1ma. Feel free to vape salt water

There are so many different types of heads to vape off of that's not good enough. A Stardust type clearo is grounded on the metal tube that runs right through the tank. Every atty I've had has no insulation between the ground connection and the metal body.

I did come across something today that I should have realized, though I suspected it was the case. The conductivity of an electrolytic solution is proportional to the concentration of the salt. So chances are anyone planning on salting their liquid would be adding a pinch, so the result will not have the high conductivity of the saturated solution I tested.

 

[GrimmTech]

I have a 510 connector and my tube is also part of the ground system. (checked impedance from tube to outer case on my battery, stainless case) I couldn't get both probes down the hole I had so I checked first to be sure I was seeing a common ground. I'm pretty sure the coil is conductive as well. You don't want it touching its self and shorting out right? That would change the length and impedance.
That being said, (although for some reason I didn't check) seems like the resistance of the coil should be able to be read to ground. The closer you are to the ground side the less it would read. Now I have confused myself.

Anyone know if the coil is coated? That wouldn't help if it flaked off though.

I agree that the final flavoring may not be conductive enough to matter though.

 

[killnine]

I did some testing just to see the difference and average conductivity of water vs salt and pg vs salt and bg vs salt. The numbers are really only useful comparatively. Straight water at about .5 inch between probes showed 5-7 mohm, with @.1 gm salt mixed in this changed to 1 mohm. With PG the meter read non-conductive. Adding salt, 2-5 mohm. VG also read non-conductive, and with salt, 8-15 mohms.

 

[GrimmTech]

PG reacts very good to salt. Almost more than water considering it started @ infinity and came down 2-5. Water had a 5-7mohm head start.

Good work!

 

[killnine]

PG reacts very good to salt. Almost more than water considering it started @ infinity and came down 2-5. Water had a 5-7mohm head start.

Good work!

Especially considering the amount of salt dissolves in water, but only partially dissolves in VG or PG, in any short amount of time (10 minutes of stirring). If it matters I used iodized salt as well. I did not crush or grind the grains at all. It would seem VG is the least conductive environment. Is electrolyzing the liquid going to really matter at .00000185 amps, for short < 6 second pulses? I don't know. Would we notice if we were inhaling sodium hypochlorite, chlorine gas, or sodium chlorate? I would think this would be noticeable. Sodium chlorate would be the most dangerous product, as it would probably be undetectable. All of this assumes a mixture of sodium chloride and water. There is likely to be some water in VG/PG, but whether the water would bond more quickly than the VG or PG, if they VG or PG mixtures bonded, what would they produce I cannot say. I don't have the chemistry knowledge to go any further with that speculation. Unless someone can show that the low current and time factor would stop this from being a possibility, I'm steering clear of it and moving on to something safer. I don't think there is an issue with the proportions of salt we would want to use in a juice, but once the juice gets low, and the salts start to stick around on the atomizing coil, there is a high chance of very high concentrations of salt leading to these reactions.

 

[MrSmith99]

I'm pretty sure it would destroy your lungs if it were strong enough to taste it:

1. Salt being a crystal may actually tear into delicate lung cells. Unsure about this. But I don't want salt crystallizing in my lungs! What if larger crystals form?
2. Salts being able to go into and out of solution may cause cilia (hairs in the lung) to quit working when salts built up. Your lungs wouldn't be able to remove the salts or other debris.
3. Salt raises havoc with moister (like in your lungs). I believe it would draw the moister out of soft thin lung cells.

I think using any kind of salt for vaping is a really bad insane idea that could hurt you badly! Please don't try that!

 

[Fishtec]

A idea might be to add some salt to various different types of base soloution vg water vodka ect make sure you weigh the salt first then boil the liquid off in any way you prefer then weigh the remaining salt to see if any has been carried off in the steam this will obviously require a decent set up of utensils but to me seems like the best way to determine what soloution will hold salt properly through vapor if at all

 

[ajventi]

A idea might be to add some salt to various different types of base soloution vg water vodka ect make sure you weigh the salt first then boil the liquid off in any way you prefer then weigh the remaining salt to see if any has been carried off in the steam this will obviously require a decent set up of utensils but to me seems like the best way to determine what soloution will hold salt properly through vapor if at all

No salt will evaporate if you boil it on a stove top. Some salt will be carried off by an atomizer, but not all of it.

Especially considering the amount of salt dissolves in water, but only partially dissolves in VG or PG, in any short amount of time (10 minutes of stirring). If it matters I used iodized salt as well. I did not crush or grind the grains at all. It would seem VG is the least conductive environment. Is electrolyzing the liquid going to really matter at .00000185 amps, for short < 6 second pulses? I don't know.

Keep in mind when I did my test I first tested the resistance of the solution and it was around 28-k, but when I ran the test and watched the current it showed an effective resistance of 5.8-ohms. I think there's a capacitive effect of the salt solution, so perhaps if you hook up an ohmmeter for an extended period of time you would also see this drastic drop in resistance.

Would we notice if we were inhaling sodium hypochlorite, chlorine gas, or sodium chlorate? I would think this would be noticeable. Sodium chlorate would be the most dangerous product, as it would probably be undetectable. All of this assumes a mixture of sodium chloride and water. There is likely to be some water in VG/PG, but whether the water would bond more quickly than the VG or PG, if they VG or PG mixtures bonded, what would they produce I cannot say. I don't have the chemistry knowledge to go any further with that speculation. Unless someone can show that the low current and time factor would stop this from being a possibility, I'm steering clear of it and moving on to something safer. I don't think there is an issue with the proportions of salt we would want to use in a juice, but once the juice gets low, and the salts start to stick around on the atomizing coil, there is a high chance of very high concentrations of salt leading to these reactions.

There's too many variables when you include PG and VG in the mix. Without looking too far into it, I'd say most likely the small amount of water would take front stage in the reaction since the ions involved have a very strong ionization potential, but I'm not sure. That's why I'm hesitant to even try testing a PG/salt solution. I can say I ran current through the saltwater for close to a minute, and I couldn't smell anything. But honestly it's not worth the risk for me, as I haven't really had the feeling that any liquid needed salt. The drying effect of vaping sometimes gives me a 'salty lips' feeling, and I used to get it on days I smoked too much, so I personally would like to try to find a way, other than reducing my vaping, to lessen that feeling.

 

[DigiManTX]

No salt will evaporate if you boil it on a stove top. Some salt will be carried off by an atomizer, but not all of it.

salt does not evaporate...the water evaps and leaves the salt behind... the boiling point at which salt would evap is 2575 °F...

 

[ajventi]

salt does not evaporate...the water evaps and leaves the salt behind... the boiling point at which salt would evap is 2575 °F...

That was my what I said, "no salt will evaporate" as opposed to how you read it "no, salt will evaporate".

I've been thinking about it, and here's the best way I can sum up my feelings on the matter:

I'm pretty knowledgable in housewiring, I know people who do things like rewire receptables or light fixtures without turning off the breaker. If I had to do it I could also do something like that. However I would not teach someone about housewiring and tell advise them not to turn off power and make sure it's shut off before possibly touching bare wires. I have a full understanding of the risks involved and the safety issues regarding electrocution. That being said even though I could rewire something while it's still hot, I choose not to I weight the risks of electocution against the reward of saving myself a few minutes of my time and decide my safety is more important.

So my view is if you want to try vaping salt you should realize there may be a hazard, try to get some knowledge about the potential risks, and weigh that against what benefits you may gain from it.

 

[Fishtec]

No salt will evaporate if you boil it on a stove top. Some salt will be carried off by an atomizer, but not all of it.



Keep in mind when I did my test I first tested the resistance of the solution and it was around 28-k, but when I ran the test and watched the current it showed an effective resistance of 5.8-ohms. I think there's a capacitive effect of the salt solution, so perhaps if you hook up an ohmmeter for an extended period of time you would also see this drastic drop in resistance.



There's too many variables when you include PG and VG in the mix. Without looking too far into it, I'd say most likely the small amount of water would take front stage in the reaction since the ions involved have a very strong ionization potential, but I'm not sure. That's why I'm hesitant to even try testing a PG/salt solution. I can say I ran current through the saltwater for close to a minute, and I couldn't smell anything. But honestly it's not worth the risk for me, as I haven't really had the feeling that any liquid needed salt. The drying effect of vaping sometimes gives me a 'salty lips' feeling, and I used to get it on days I smoked too much, so I personally would like to try to find a way, other than reducing my vaping, to lessen that feeling.

Was thinking more test tube / Bunsen burner type of set up but yeah I get what your saying I'm cynical that it will work myself can't see how a atomiser can provide enough heat to melt salt and as a mineral I highly doubt it could be vapourised atall but am interested in how it could work I'm sure there must be a way to make salt tasting flavouring but I doubt this is the way to do it was just a suggestion to see if any salt ( if at all ) will vapourise off as steam