SE, NJoy vs FDA -- Discussion
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Hi Jerry.Preaching to the choir my friend, but I hear ya. I know I've said it before, but if anyone has any doubts about how low the FDA can get, all they have to do is look into their history with Stevia and Vioxx. I haven't trusted them any farther than I can throw their headquarters for quite some time now. I guess with a changing of the guard, we can always hope though.
There was an ideologically driven mission shift in government regulatory agencies beginning a couple decades ago. This shift is why I have little hope that they will/can be trusted. Not to be overly partisan about it, but this shift was initiated by conservatives who felt that regulations were stifling business. Regulatory heads were instructed to consider the industries they regulate as "clients", replacing the more adversarial roles of the past. Their priorities were re-drawn from being watchdogs and "enforcers" to "facilitators". The concept of "self regulation" was born during this transition. It was applied to everything from the banking regulators to the EPA and the Corp of Engineers. As we speak, the watered down financial regulatory reforms passed by the last Congress are being fought tooth and nail by proponents of this "self regulation", business-friendly regulatory model.
I distinctly remember hearing a CoE official, over 10 years ago, saying that, starting now, their objective was to aid industry in the permitting process and facilitate approval of their projects, not simply to ensure that they adhered to existing processes and regulations. I got a bad feeling when I heard that, as it portended trouble ahead. A similar shift of mission has permeated all regulatory bodies as they have increasingly been staffed and headed by lobbyists and former/future executives of the very industries they were charged with regulating. A fresh example is a recent Wikileaks disclosure showing that the EPA aided Bayer in covering up studies that proved one of their agricultural pesticides was toxic to bees and should not have been used in certain applications. Another example is the Mineral/Mining Agency's cozy relationship with British Petroleum and the resulting permitting and inspection shams which culminated in the Gulf oil dump.
Similarly, the FDA considers BP it's "client". As long as regulatory agencies are expected to tow this new business-friendly line foisted upon them by conservatives; as long as the "watchdogs" are expected to guide the burglars, they will do whatever it takes to protect their clients. That includes protecting BP's market for smoking replacement or cessation products. Do not expect the "changing of the guard" to improve this situation. In fact, it will exacerbate it. The new Congress has a majority that believes strongly in self-regulation of industry and the agency/client model of regulation.
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One more thing. Over the last several months, I have read numerous posts that put forth the idea that somehow, if the "health-nazis" were replaced by conservatives or Republicans, e-cigs would stand a better chance against the onslaught of the FDA.
Let me remind you that there is a Republican conservative who, during a House vote to repeal tobacco subsidies, handed out checks from the tobacco lobby on the House floor. This Republican also counts as one of his most generous campaign donors, the pharmaceutical industry. This Republican is none other than the new Majority Leader, "Weepin'" John Boehner.
Do not expect cooperation from the new Congress in our war to liberate e-cigs. The e-cig industry is not nearly rich, large or well connected enough to compete with BP and BT for the affections of Boehner or, for that matter, the majority of Republicans.
The Democrats weren't much better, but they were natural enemies of BT and their objections to e-cigs were derived mainly from health concerns. If enough information could be pounded into their heads, they could be pried off of their misguided stances. But, there's a saying something to the effect that there is no one so immune to facts as one who's livelihood depends on not knowing them. That describes Boehner, and the other agents of BP and BT in the new Congress, to a "T".
If you expect cooperation in the cause, look toward those who do NOT receive support from BP and BT, regardless of party affiliation or ideological predisposition. At it's essence, this issue is first and foremost about money. Over time, the health issues can, and will, be ironed out. The money issues are a much greater hurdle to overcome and if that's not done, the health issues will be rendered irrelevant as there will be too little time or opportunity to resolve them.
Let me remind you that there is a Republican conservative who, during a House vote to repeal tobacco subsidies, handed out checks from the tobacco lobby on the House floor. This Republican also counts as one of his most generous campaign donors, the pharmaceutical industry. This Republican is none other than the new Majority Leader, "Weepin'" John Boehner.
Do not expect cooperation from the new Congress in our war to liberate e-cigs. The e-cig industry is not nearly rich, large or well connected enough to compete with BP and BT for the affections of Boehner or, for that matter, the majority of Republicans.
The Democrats weren't much better, but they were natural enemies of BT and their objections to e-cigs were derived mainly from health concerns. If enough information could be pounded into their heads, they could be pried off of their misguided stances. But, there's a saying something to the effect that there is no one so immune to facts as one who's livelihood depends on not knowing them. That describes Boehner, and the other agents of BP and BT in the new Congress, to a "T".
If you expect cooperation in the cause, look toward those who do NOT receive support from BP and BT, regardless of party affiliation or ideological predisposition. At it's essence, this issue is first and foremost about money. Over time, the health issues can, and will, be ironed out. The money issues are a much greater hurdle to overcome and if that's not done, the health issues will be rendered irrelevant as there will be too little time or opportunity to resolve them.
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Sailorman, can you tone down your politics just a little bit.
Or maybe even a lot.
You may not like Republicans and Fox news.
Well, I don't like Democrats and mainstream media.
You don't hold a monopoly on truth.
So take it Outside please.
Or maybe even a lot.
You may not like Republicans and Fox news.
Well, I don't like Democrats and mainstream media.
You don't hold a monopoly on truth.
So take it Outside please.
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Sailorman, I have to agree with DC2. You state your argument well, but it belongs in the Outside, not here.
O.K., O.K., I don't claim a monopoly on truth. I just get a little carried away trying to share my trickle of truth with those inundated by the torrent of Fox lies.
But it brings to mind a cartoon I once saw.
A guy is sitting at his kitchen table while a small child is walking in yelling "I'm hungry!"
The guy looks over at the kid and yells back, "Quit talking politics!"
Everything is politics.
If it is decided that PV are tobacco products, the FDA can sieze shipments in the US. They made it against the law to send tobacco through the mail. Correct me if I am wrong, I did not search out the actual law, but took this from a cbs news site.
The law, Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act was signed into law March 31, part of a growing regulatory crackdown on tobacco under President Barack Obama that has included bans on flavored cigarettes (except for menthols) and on cigarettes labeled as "light," as well as a broader Food and Drug Administration review that is expected to last years, but may result in sweeping new rules.
The mailing ban will extend to cigarettes, roll-your-own tobacco and smokeless tobacco. It does not include cigars.
The law, Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act was signed into law March 31, part of a growing regulatory crackdown on tobacco under President Barack Obama that has included bans on flavored cigarettes (except for menthols) and on cigarettes labeled as "light," as well as a broader Food and Drug Administration review that is expected to last years, but may result in sweeping new rules.
The mailing ban will extend to cigarettes, roll-your-own tobacco and smokeless tobacco. It does not include cigars.
Schadoe, you really should read any statute that you post about, especially if you are posting erroneous suppositions as to what it covers as if they were factual, and therefore misleading others.
I cannot count how many times I've rebutted that particular bit of misinformation here on this forum. The definitional provisions of the PACT Act very specifically lay out what products it covers - and ecigs would not meet any of them even if deemed tobacco products under the FSTPCA. Most particularly, ecigs would and do not fit within the specific definition of "smokeless tobacco" found in the PACT Act.
I cannot count how many times I've rebutted that particular bit of misinformation here on this forum. The definitional provisions of the PACT Act very specifically lay out what products it covers - and ecigs would not meet any of them even if deemed tobacco products under the FSTPCA. Most particularly, ecigs would and do not fit within the specific definition of "smokeless tobacco" found in the PACT Act.
I dunno. I enjoy Sailorman's perspective. Nice change from the "approved" company line here. And thanks again, Julie!
Sorry--nothing new to report. We get a flurry of activity, then nada.
As always, everyone is welcome. Checking the docket is such a small thing to do.
Stay safe and warm, everybody! (And those of you enjoying nice weather, don't rub it in.)
As always, everyone is welcome. Checking the docket is such a small thing to do.
Stay safe and warm, everybody! (And those of you enjoying nice weather, don't rub it in.
)
As always, everyone is welcome. Checking the docket is such a small thing to do.
And so important! So THANK YOU again!
Stay safe and warm, everybody! (And those of you enjoying nice weather, don't rub it in.
Ok, I won't ;-)
Of course, one sunny day here (finally!) in the midst of all our
flash floods and lightning storms is appreciated!
It's really not that hard. You go to Public Access to Court Electronic Records and set up an account. You need to provide your personal information and put a credit card on file. You get charged the princely sum of 8 cents each time you check the docket . . . and then if there's something of interest you want to see, you're charged 8 cents a page for that. Your credit card gets charged quarterly.
There are a few tricks to getting to the right file, but it's a no-brainer once you've done it a few times.
Pretty much anything that gets filed in the case gets reported on this thread and the entire document is uploaded so that folks can read for themselves and not have to rely on summaries provided by others . . . unless, of course, you want to rely on summaries.
These documents are all a matter of public record, and I know CASAA is good about making copies of the documents available on its website at CASAA.orgOf course, one sunny day here (finally!) in the midst of all our
flash floods and lightning storms is appreciated!
Well, since you've been suffering through lots of rain, you can be forgiven some nice weather. Of course, some of the folks up north may not agree with that.
No movement on the docket today.
Thanks Julie. We are expecting 12 to 16 inches of snow here tomorrow. I'm moving. 
Still, even at only 8¢ a pop, you're owed quite a bit by now—at least in time, if not accumulated pennies.
I just did a quick search and I don't see any posts regarding Banzhaf leaving ASH. Surely there's a giant thread around here where there's lots of celebration complete with happy dances and cheers? If I missed it, - and I must have because this news is a few days old - feel free to delete this, but if it hasn't been posted, here's the link:
ASH Announces New Executive Director
ASH Announces New Executive Director
Leave it to Banzaf to announce a new director and then have a few paragraphs, praising himself. 
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