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Second Hand e-Smoke

Discussion in 'New Members Forum' started by appzaholic, Jun 11, 2011.

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  1. appzaholic

    appzaholic Full Member

    May 2, 2011
    Los Angeles, CA
    Is second hand e-smoke bad for the people around me?
  2. WomanOfHeart

    WomanOfHeart Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Sep 19, 2010
    Doubtful. Exhaled vapor probably contains only 1% or less nicotine. The people around you will become addicted to nicotine nor will they develop any of the problems associated with second-hand smoke. The only thing that might happen is they would catch the slight scent of whatever it is that you're vaping. I haven't the slightest idea of who would complain about smelling chocolate, coffee or fruit.
  3. hairball

    hairball ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 17, 2010
    Other Places
    I second what WomanOfHeart says. I've had my daughter want to turn some of my liquids into airfresheners but no person in the house has ever said that they are having strange reactions to my using PV's. Even if a person would ingest some of the vapor, it would be minute in comparison to inhaling second hand smoke. Vapor is heavier so it falls to the ground faster.
  4. Khan

    Khan Full Member

    Feb 15, 2010
    NJ, USA
    "Second Hand Vapor" is about as harmful as a fog machine or one of those halloween decorations with "smoke effects", mainly because it's the same stuff. most of the nicotine is absorbed in your mouth when you are inhaling anyway, so the nic levels are going to be lower than (or on par with) that of a tomato (yep tomatoes have nicotine in them). Still, I wouldn't blow it in their face or anything.... that's just rude. ;)
  5. leannebug

    leannebug Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Mar 5, 2010
    the deep south
    I would guess they get little to no nicotine. If anything, just the pg/vg. We only get a small percentage of nic (as compared to what we got smoking) so after inhaling then exhaling.. I would have to guess there is very little left. Plus they would have to be in close proximity and/or an enclosed space.

    But Im not a scientist.. Just an educated guess from what I've read around here.

    Sent from my pod
  6. appzaholic

    appzaholic Full Member

    May 2, 2011
    Los Angeles, CA
    Thanks, gotta think about the family.

    The one bad thing I have to say about smoking e-cigs is I don't have to go outside anymore. I chain vape now :)
  7. MattZuke

    MattZuke Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 28, 2011
    A, A
    All objective information to date suggests the risk to bystanders is less than a glade plugin (HMIS health rating 2 - Moderate Risk) or unregulated paraffin candles. PG/VG in contrast have a HMIS health rating of 0. There is the NZ study that shows that 98% of nicotine is absorbed by the user, which would mean for a 2.6% solution (24mg/ml) would be equal to .52%, which typically used 1mg/time, which is dissipated quite quickly. Nicotine is still accepted as an organic insecticide up to 40% for general use, and that's volumes more in a short burst than 1-2ml over 16 hours. Not to speak of catsup or e-plant, which is more than what a bystander would be exposed to if they opted to suck your vapor.

    So the base material poses less risk than other things people use, the nicotine dissipates to trace levels, and the flavoring is FDA food grade, what you'd be exposed to cooking.

    But nothing is risk free, thus if someone wouldn't use scented paraffin candles, or scented detergent, or has a sensitivity to PG, it might be prudent to put down your PV.
  8. Panky

    Panky Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 12, 2011
    LOL, that tends to happen :oops:
  9. JW50

    JW50 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 31, 2011
    USA Kentucky
    You might take a look at this thread:

    When one vapes air is being drawn in and is mixed with the vapor that comes off the coil of the heater. I have not seen specific research on the issue but if comparable to analogs, the mix of air to vapor of what is draw into mouth will be on the order of 4 parts air to 1 part vapor. At the link mentioned you will find that it is highly probable that over 99% of the nicotine in that mix is absorbed by the vaper. So using these figures and assuming a use of 18mg juice (i.e. 1.8%), that 1.8% is diluted to 1/5 of that at draw in (0.36% now), then 99% is absorbed (0.0036% now) and 0.0036% of what is exhaled is possibly nicotine. So, maybe there is a little nicotine in the exhale - but not much. Just looking at nicotine, very,very small with "e-cig smoke". For analogs, situation is quite different when it comes to the nicotine in side-steam and second-hand smoke. If you go here: Clearing the Smoke: Assessing the Science Base for Tobacco Harm Reduction
    you will find that the nicotine in the side stream smoke is 260% to 330% of the amount of nicotine that the smoker draws in. Those 260% to 330% figures are to analogs what 0.0036% is to "e-cig smoke". The facts seem to be that second-hand "e-smoke" is about as bad as for the people around you as your exhale is bad for them.
  10. SonnyCrack

    SonnyCrack Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 22, 2011
    I can report that my mother in law was about 4-5 feet away from me and it irratated her throat.... I've vaped around a lot of people and she's the first and only to react that way.. (and no, she's not a bad mother in law or a liar lol)
  11. sierra22

    sierra22 Moved On

    Jun 11, 2011
    yeah, what they said, nothing to worry about at all.
  12. JW50

    JW50 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 31, 2011
    USA Kentucky
    There is always the possibility of special sensitivity by some to various chemicals. The chemicals need not be toxic to cause such reaction by some. The 4-5 foot distance mentioned suggests considerable dilution by its self. I would be inclined to think the sore throat has a different origin that the your exhale after vaping. But the special sensitivity is not impossible. What reaction does your mother-in-law have when in vicinity of ETS or tobacco smoke? If no similar reaction in later, I think one could rule out nicotine as being the chemical that has her sore throat.
  13. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    Not to play Devil’s Advocate here but doesn’t any exhaled vapor contain the same amount of Nicotine as the inhaled vapor?
  14. jj2

    jj2 Moved On ECF Veteran

    May 30, 2009
    Hundred Acre Wood
    I always figure the possibility is as possible as inhaling caffeine from a brewing coffee pot.
  15. WomanOfHeart

    WomanOfHeart Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Sep 19, 2010
    You have to consider the amount that's absorbed when you initially inhale it. What comes out is going to be less than what went in.

    And what if you stealth vape and don't exhale anything?
  16. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    Agreed. The amount of Nicotine that is exhaled is less than the Total amount that is inhaled.

    What I was referring to is that the vapor that comes out of a persons mouth when they exhale will have about the same amount of nicotine per unit volume as what they inhaled.

    I could be all wrong on this so it would be best to confirm or disprove it with some outside reading but here we go.

    The reason being is that about 98% of the Nicotine that enters a person’s body is done thru the mouth, throat and nasal passages. The lungs do not have the ability to absorb nicotine via moister droplets because the moister droplets are too large. It’s a good thing also because otherwise a person would drowned very quickly when they vaped. Or went out on a foggy day for that matter.

    This is also why when you vape there is a relatively low absorption rate of nicotine. Some say only 10% but from what I read I believe it is closer to 20%. If the lungs could absorb nicotine via vapor droplets the absorption rate would be Much higher. Exceeding that of cigarette smoke.

    So when you take a hit of your PV and exhale, what you see, and what you can’t see, is just unabsorbed vapor droplets which contain the same amount of nicotine as when you inhaled.

    I won’t comment on whether this “2nd hand vape” is hazardous to other because honestly I don’t think Anyone knows what the health risk is for the “1st hand vape”.

    Stealth Vaping would be the closest to not exhaling any nicotine at all. Since the absorption percentage approaches 100%.

    If a person is concerned, it would seem the easiest thing to do is to just not vape around any individual that they might not want to become in contact with nicotine or anything else inside e-Juice.

    BTW – You can choose any absorption rate from vaping that you feel is right. You don’t have to use 20% which I did. But what ever absorption rate you chose, consider that subtracting that from 100% is the amount of nicotine that is exhaled. If a person vapes 2ml a day of 18mg e-Juice, well, you get the idea
  17. JW50

    JW50 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 31, 2011
    USA Kentucky
    I think some the statements you make in your post are incorrect. To the statement just above - consider the breathing process. We inhale air. To keep things simple, air is basically a mixture of gases. The most important gas to us there is oxygen. (Air is mostly a mix of nitrogen, oxygen and argon) So, of those air gases we breathe in lets say oxygen represents 20% of the mix. In the breathing process, a substantial amount of the oxygen gets "absorbed" within our system. Our exhale will liking contain some of that air we took in but it will not include the oxygen absorbed. And added to that exhale will be some CO2 that our body created in its normal functioning. So, I don't think it likely that our exhale is going to have the same percentage of oxygen per unit of volume as what we inhaled. Same for the nicotine situation.

    I think in the context of e-cigs, I think 100% of the nicotine that enters a person's body is done thru the mouth. The lungs do indeed have the ability to absorb the nicotine. The unknown is how much of the vape that is taken in via the mouth makes its way to the lungs and how much nicotine is actually with that part of vape that travels to the lungs. Nicotine absorbed through the membranes in the mouth, throat, etc. (membranes before the lungs) will of course not be available for absorption by the lungs. Also, some vape may actually settle in the mouth, mix with saliva and be taken into the digestive tract. So, several possible ways exist for the nicotine that is with the vape to be absorbed in our body.

    The evidence to date is that a very high rate of absorption of nicotine occurs. One example would be an experiment done by one of the chemist members of ECF (Exogenesis) where he vaped in X amount of nicotine, then held the vape very briefly with no inhale in effort to minimally absorb and the exhaled that for tests. His test showed that 2/3rds had been absorbed. When this experiment is related to a set of experiments done in regard to smoke patterns (i'e. no inhaling, normal inhaling and deep inhaling), the results suggest that 99% of nicotine going in does not come out in the exhale. The 10% figure you mention relates to the nicotine that is in an analog that actually is take in in a puff of a analog cig. 20% - don't know where that might have come from, vapor droplets puzzling too.

    Just don't agree. Very, very little nicotine in the exhale if the vaper has taken a "normal" inhale into lungs. Not a great deal more nic even if no inhale into lungs.

    I think it is reasonably to look at the health risk of 1st hand vape as being closely connected to the health risks of nicotine. Same for 2nd hand except evidence seems to suggest there is very, very little nic in the exhale.

    If by "stealth" you mean hold an inhale vape in long enough so that there is no "smoke" when breathing out, I agree. In such a case, other parts of the vape (PG, VG, etc) beyond the nic have probably been absorbed.

    I agree.
  18. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    JW50... You could very well be right in all that you say.

    If the entire vapor droplet thing is puzzling to you might do some research on it. It is a very interesting phenomenon. It also lends itself to why the nicotine is basically only absorbed by the mouth, throat and nasal passages.

    I'm not sure if I believe that the nicotine absorption rate is 2/3 but I will defer to your information. Saying that the value is correct, Isn't then 1/3 of the nicotine inhaled then being exhaled?

    If, by your numbers, 1/3 of the nicotine is not being exhaled, where does it go?
  19. swedishfish

    swedishfish Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 28, 2010
    See this post
  20. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
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