Should Children be Allowed to Buy e-Liquids that contain Nicotine?

Should there be an Age Limit to Buy e-Liquids that contain Nicotine?

  • I believe you should be an Adult (18 Years or Older) to Buy e-Liquids that contain Nicotine.

  • I believe Anyone at Any Age should be able to Buy e-Liquids that contain Nicotine.


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renacer

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How do you Feel about Minors who Do Not Smoke using e-Cigarettes?

I'm kind of on the fence. I don't think nicotine is a particularly harmful substance when removed from all the chemicals in analogs. After all, minors can purchase caffeine.

But the thing is, kids are kind of stupid. I can see them burning themselves left and right with these things and worse.

I think a fine compromise would be to keep the laws prohibiting sales to minors over 18 but to let minors vape with parental permission.
 

Cavenerd

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Nothing is 100% safe, I disagree that vaping needs to be regulated any more than many other products people of all ages enjoy.

Here are a few articles/studies about nicotine, and it's lack of developed dependency in the absence of tobacco:
Nicotine, the Wonder Drug? | DiscoverMagazine.com

Professor: Nicotine does not cause cigarette addiction | The State Press - An independent daily serving Arizona State University

http://smokefree.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/mythsaboutNRTfactsheet.pdf

Here's one about actual sugar addiction, physical dependence, for comparison:
5 Clues You Are Addicted To Sugar - Dr. Mark Hyman

If you're still unsure, I get that, we've been lied to a lot, probably by both sides. I would simply argue that instead of being FOR an age restriction in the absence of evidence, one that would be near impossible to remove later, that we simply abstain from legislation until we know enough.

I could get behind the idea of postponing legislation if there was some mechanism in place to ensure that children were not allowed to purchase juice until any suspicion about possible adverse effects (of NIC as we use it) were dispelled.

It's a tall order though. Protecting children, I think, has a deeply moral impetus and also is an idea that pulls very deeply at a type of decision making which circumvents making rational choices. As a parent of a 12-year old (and you can call this adultism if you like) I will always err on the side of safety rather than "taking a chance" when my son's well-being and health are concerned. I have parental prerogative so I can manage many of the choices concerning my son. A sad but hard fact is that not all parents exercise that duty. DO these children then become lost IF one day we find out that there are health issues associated with vaping nicotine?

Again, not trying to argue, just asking what I think are relevant questions and/or are points that I have concerns about.
 

Lessifer

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I could get behind the idea of postponing legislation if there was some mechanism in place to ensure that children were not allowed to purchase juice until any suspicion about possible adverse effects (of NIC as we use it) were dispelled.

It's a tall order though. Protecting children, I think, has a deeply moral impetus and also is an idea that pulls very deeply at a type of decision making which circumvents making rational choices. As a parent of a 12-year old (and you can call this adultism if you like) I will always err on the side of safety rather than "taking a chance" when my son's well-being and health are concerned. I have parental prerogative so I can manage many of the choices concerning my son. A sad but hard fact is that not all parents exercise that duty. DO these children then become lost IF one day we find out that there are health issues associated with vaping nicotine?

Again, not trying to argue, just asking what I think are relevant questions and/or are points that I have concerns about.

Either way, some kids will fall through the cracks, there are always exceptions.

Not everyone will see it this way, but here's how I see it.

Without an age limit:
Yes it is possible, however unlikely, that younger children could buy nicotine e-liquid. More likely it would be teens who would otherwise be experimenting with smoking, but this may be a larger group than it would be with just smoking available. Even if more kids try nicotine, with the latest information, they won't be hooked into a lifelong dependence like they would be with tobacco smoke. Since the purchases will be legal, they would be able to buy from actual vape shops, who would hopefully provide usage guidance, and some consumer protections. (try returning a defective product to a back alley dealer) Teens who have already started smoking, without their parents knowledge, who CAN'T tell their parents, for whatever reason, will have access to a "safer" alternative to smoking.

With an age limit:
Children(by which I mean teens/preteens) will find ways to acquire e-cigs, illegally, possibly through less than honest dealers. Possibly fewer than if they were legal, probably not much fewer if the past history of smoking among teens is any indication. Those that do pick up vaping won't have the benefit of being able to ask knowledgeable vape shop employees for assistance. Technically they won't even be allowed to come here. The ban will never be lifted, even if vaping is shown to be more harmless than breathing regular air, that's how laws work, repeals are next to impossible. You'll start seeing the argument that, even vaping enthusiasts believe that kids should be protected from vaping, etc. etc.
 

Jman8

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The moral decision I alluded to is what was stated: children should not have access to purchase or possess NIC until it is proven and medically accepted to be non-habit forming and not addictive. To allow them to have access, I believe, is immoral and irresponsible, and until I can make an informed decision, I'll make a safe decision.

My responses:

1) You do not explain why it is immoral and irresponsible. The implication is that because it is habit forming (presumably for everyone), then kids should be denied access. Sugar is habit forming. Do you maintain consistency in this position by asserting that allowing kids access to that substance is moral and irresponsible?

2) Would it not also be immoral and irresponsible to allow access to adults on these grounds? If not, why not?

It concerns me that decades ago smoking was thought to be non-harmful and now, much later, we KNOW smoking is bad for you.

I strongly disagree with this statement, and anyone that either knows me on this forum or has read this thread, knows I'm going to challenge this assertion. You may "know" from personal experience that it is bad for you. I now smoke in moderation and thus have a different take on things, especially compared to when I was heavy/abusive smoker. I also have different take after researching the mostly ANTZ 'scientific' literature on 'harms associated with smoking' and welcome anyone reading this to post the data they believe backs up the assertion. I would just note that most substances (arguably all of them) carry with them a degree of harm. Abusively drinking water can lead to over dosing. Or put another way, everyone on the planet that has ever drank water has eventually died. Get a few ANTZ together, develop a strategic smear campaign, and voila, "water kills."

Do I think vaping is much less harmful. Absolutely. Am I convinced that there are no adverse effects? Not yet, but we've been studying vapor and vaping for only a very short time. I'm saying until we have all the information, from non-partisan sources, we should make the decision that protects, at the very least, children.

...by creating a black market for children? Knowing full well adults will use / enjoy vaping products, kids will be well tuned into this fact and like all the (ex)smokers reading this will desire to try it at an age that some adults (or is it adultists) have deemed as inherently bad / immoral for children to be using. But perfectly fine for the adult to form a habit and ingest the not 100% harmless substance known as nicotine.
 

Jman8

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See this is the Glaring Hole in the "Let's make it Legal for Kids to Buy Nicotine" argument. And those who are for it Don't seem to want to Answer a Fundamental Question.

Do we want to give Kids who Don't Smoke Legal access to Nicotine knowing that they will Buy it?

Absolutely. Does this answer the question you think some of us don't wish to answer?

The Pro Nicotine for Kids Argument is Also Flawed in that a Small Percentage of Kids are Smoking, when Buying Cigarettes is Illegal. So Why would these Kids who Can Obtain Cigarettes Illegally have any problems Obtaining e-Cigarettes?

They wouldn't have problems obtaining eCigs from the underground market. This is not a flaw in the pro-allowance position, but a serious flaw in the anti-allowance position.
 

Jman8

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As a parent of a 12-year old (and you can call this adultism if you like) I will always err on the side of safety rather than "taking a chance" when my son's well-being and health are concerned. I have parental prerogative so I can manage many of the choices concerning my son. A sad but hard fact is that not all parents exercise that duty. DO these children then become lost IF one day we find out that there are health issues associated with vaping nicotine?

Exercising parental guidance is not adultism. Obviously, that may be stipulated if "guidance" equals "controlling based solely / mostly on the belief that a child (or your child) is less than fully human."

The idea that nicotine may have adverse affects on health is not (really) the issue. I would readily concede that it does as there are zero substances on this planet that I am aware that do not carry with them adverse effects (depending on how they are used). There are many things that kids currently have access to that have well known adverse effects, sugar being at or near the top. The thing is, there are those among us who would just as well ban sugary substances from kids if the politics of the day permitted such a thing. Other than a few basic foods (i.e. fruits and vegetables), I think those amongst us who seek to forbid things from kids don't really have an end point to what they think should be forbidden. I'd like to think most people in this thread who think it is absolutely righteous to forbid nicotine from kids aren't of that mindset, but who knows? Once those campaigns get going and the harms are elevated to 'major concern for impact on health' then perhaps they will also be swayed to say this too must be forbidden to kids.

The actual issue, as I stated in an earlier post, is one of discrimination. But it isn't like discrimination of any other subset within society as everyone reading this was (I would argue still is) one of them. The rabbit hole on this issue goes deeper than I think most people realize. It compounds upon each generation and leads to a zealous version of 'protection' that routinely shows up as not working (so well) and laced with hypocrisy galore.
 

zoiDman

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zoiDman said:
Do we want to give Kids who Don't Smoke Legal access to Nicotine knowing that they will Buy it?

Absolutely. Does this answer the question you think some of us don't wish to answer?

They wouldn't have problems obtaining eCigs from the underground market. This is not a flaw in the pro-allowance position, but a serious flaw in the anti-allowance position.

Wow... That's Kinda Creepy.

I would ask you what Other things You would like to Sell to Children but Unfortunately I already know the Answer that that Question.

So the Readers Digest Version of all this is.

We should Sell e-Liquids that contain Nicotine to Children. But we Don't have any Information on the Effects that Habitually Inhaling Nicotine, Flavorings or Artificial Sweeteners causes to a Developing Body or Mind.

We have to Sell Nicotine to ALL Children Because a Very Small percentage of Children Smoke.

That Kids will be Forced to use the "Underground Market" to buy there Nicotine . But that the Underground Market is merely an Adult Purchasing Nicotine in the Legal Market. And then Providing it to a Minor. Which is How Kids are getting their Cigarettes Now. So Nothing is Going to Change.


And if we Don't Sell Nicotine to Children, then it is Discrimination and Violates Children's "Rights". Even though the Legal Concept of Adolescents "Rights" is Based on an Adolescent being able to make an Informed Decision. Which is Impossible because we have No Information for a Child to make such a Decision.

I can see why roughly 88% of Vapors who answered this Poll agree that there is a Need for an Age Limit on Kids buying Nicotine.
 

zoiDman

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I can't say it'd all be speculation

Everything is Speculation until it happens.

But some things the Average Person would consider to have a High Percentage of Happening. If there was No Age Limit for Children to buy Beer, do you think that Children would by Beer?

Of Course, your Answer, and Mine as Well, would just be Speculation. Because there is an Age Limit for Children to Buy Beer.
 

Jman8

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So the Readers Digest Version of all this is.

We should Sell e-Liquids that contain Nicotine to Children. But we Don't have any Information on the Effects that Habitually Inhaling Nicotine, Flavorings or Artificial Sweeteners causes to a Developing Body or Mind.

We have to Sell Nicotine to ALL Children Because a Very Small percentage of Children Smoke.

Mischaracterization. Should allow and should sell are not the same thing. But given the mindset of a) should forbid and b) should use the word should, it makes sense, considering the source.

.... the Legal Concept of Adolescents "Rights" is Based on an Adolescent being able to make an Informed Decision. Which is Impossible because we have No Information for a Child to make such a Decision.

Nor do we have information for an adult to make such a decision.
 
Everything is Speculation until it happens.

But some things the Average Person would consider to have a High Percentage of Happening. If there was No Age Limit for Children to buy Beer, do you think that Children would by Beer?

Of Course, your Answer, and Mine as Well, would just be Speculation. Because there is an Age Limit for Children to Buy Beer.

One thing we do know is that kids will try tobacco and alcohol and some may find they get sick or don't like it wouldn't you think the same would apply to using e cigs? But I doubt kids would go shelling out more than $10 to try an e cig (beer and analogs are much cheaper and therefore probably be more likely tried by kids) which is only really possible if it's one of those nasty cheap ones from convenience stores which even adults don't like possibly/probably shying them away from using them again all IMO though
 

zoiDman

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One thing we do know is that kids will try tobacco and alcohol and some may find they get sick or don't like it wouldn't you think the same would apply to using e cigs? But I doubt kids would go shelling out more than $10 to try an e cig (beer and analogs are much cheaper and therefore probably be more likely tried by kids) which is only really possible if it's one of those nasty cheap ones from convenience stores which even adults don't like possibly/probably shying them away from using them again all IMO though

Those are All Possibilities.

There is Also the Possibility that since e-Cigarettes do Not Leave the Tell-Tale Stink on people like Regular Cigarettes do, that Children will be More Apt to use e-Cigarettes. Because they know it will be Harder to get Caught.
 

Jman8

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Awww. But this is where the HUGE Distinction Lies.

Because an Adult in this Country has the "Right" to make an Uninformed Decision about matters of Health.

But an Adolescent Does Not.

Based on discrimination and not on what you were purporting before. I understand the distinction at work. Do you?
 
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