So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[TWISTED VICTOR]

They're going to have to make more room in that special place in Hell reserved for the the "quit or die" crowd...

Funny that they threw this in:

Prohibits the sale of electronic cigarettes to minors; prohibits distribution
or sale of any item containing or delivering nicotine that is not defined by
law as a tobacco product or approved by the United States food and drug
administration for sale as a tobacco use cessation or harm reduction product.

when they don't even recognize "harm reduction" in any way.

 

[kinabaloo]

moved ....

 

[tescela]

Funny that they threw this in:

Prohibits the sale of electronic cigarettes to minors; prohibits distribution
or sale of any item containing or delivering nicotine that is not defined by
law as a tobacco product or approved by the United States food and drug
administration for sale as a tobacco use cessation or harm reduction product.

when they don't even recognize "harm reduction" in any way.

Ok, hopefully everyone reading this thread stepped up and did their part to help with the proposed NYS ban.

Vapers lost the battle today, but the war is far from over. PVs have NOT been banned yet in New York State. There will be multiple more battles to be fought before that could happen, and this war is very winnable IF vapers continue to step up with progressively greater intensity.

In the meantime, back to the science!

 

[DVap]

A bit of progress on another piece of the WTA puzzle.

In anticipation of making a batch of WTA from a 16 mg/g snus, I worked up a test batch from a tin of General Loose snus (42 grams) with a stated nic content of 8 mg/g.

At 42 grams of 8 mg/g, and what appeared to be a very good extraction, I was expecting up to around 340 mg of alkaloids at the finish. I ended up with 150 mg of alkaloids, and this just didn't seem right (recovery of only 44%).

Checking further into the General Loose snus, the water content is 52%. So I ask myself, is the stated 8 mg/g based on dry weight? In other words, does the snus contain 8 mg/g of nicotine BEFORE the water is added to the snus? I don't know, but if this were the case, then my 150 mg recovery would be 93% instead of 44%. Maybe a good topic for someone to research?

As far as the alkaloids, the raw alkaloids smell and look exactly like the raw alkaloids obtained when using NAS tobacco. Mixed down to 30 mg/mL, the taste and throat-hit is identical to NAS.

Short of analysis, I can say that based on my experience, I would not be able to distinguish snus WTA liquid from NAS WTA liquid if a bottle of each were set side by side for me to compare visually and vape-wise.

 

[exogenesis]

Good to hear that going from snus doesn't totally skupper your extraction method,

I always thought it was mg nic. per wet gram,

Northerner states for Thunder Frosted :
"Nicotine (about) 16 Mg/g" for both 1 wet g ('normal' portion) & 0.5 wet g ('mini' portion)
and
'long' portion = "12mg per portion" for 0.75 wet g portion

So that tallies at 16 mg per wet gram.

And
"Nicotine (about) 8 Mg/portion" for 'General' (the make) portion snus.

Guess something did get in the way of efficiency then, maybe the NaCl / HCO3- / water ?
(there's quite a heavy content of salts in each portion).

 

[kinabaloo]

How about a different first step. Rather than a soak, a heat (slowly to say 275C) recondensing all that vaporises (water, alkaloids and a few others (such as terpenes); immediately leaves behind starches, proteins, salts etc. It is also rather like what happens in a burning analog (minus the combustion) and would give a more alike ratio of alkaloids.

But - might bedifficult to vaporise alkaloids at 275C without heat decomposition of proteins etc ??

Oh, and might the 90% loss of nicotine from heating in analogs as the combustion point approaches be that this fraction of nicotine was in a salt form not free-base form??

so for two reasons might be a non-runner, but thought i'd get your feedback (and perhaps spur another idea).

 

[hittman]

A bit of progress on another piece of the WTA puzzle.

In anticipation of making a batch of WTA from a 16 mg/g snus, I worked up a test batch from a tin of General Loose snus (42 grams) with a stated nic content of 8 mg/g.

At 42 grams of 8 mg/g, and what appeared to be a very good extraction, I was expecting up to around 340 mg of alkaloids at the finish. I ended up with 150 mg of alkaloids, and this just didn't seem right (recovery of only 44%).

Checking further into the General Loose snus, the water content is 52%. So I ask myself, is the stated 8 mg/g based on dry weight? In other words, does the snus contain 8 mg/g of nicotine BEFORE the water is added to the snus? I don't know, but if this were the case, then my 150 mg recovery would be 93% instead of 44%. Maybe a good topic for someone to research?

As far as the alkaloids, the raw alkaloids smell and look exactly like the raw alkaloids obtained when using NAS tobacco. Mixed down to 30 mg/mL, the taste and throat-hit is identical to NAS.

Short of analysis, I can say that based on my experience, I would not be able to distinguish snus WTA liquid from NAS WTA liquid if a bottle of each were set side by side for me to compare visually and vape-wise.

That is great to hear Dvap. I am surprised that the taste is the same. Would snus be a cheaper alternative to the NAS? I have no idea how much that costs but if we are ever able to buy the snus x buckets then it might be a good alternative.

 

[kinabaloo]

That is great to hear Dvap. I am surprised that the taste is the same. Would snus be a cheaper alternative to the NAS? I have no idea how much that costs but if we are ever able to buy the snus x buckets then it might be a good alternative.

In a way that kinda shows the extraction gets the essential alkaloids and leaves the additives (that contribute to making cig brands vary) behind.

Still, surprising so similar given that the tobaccos are different; maybe the 'taste' involves relatively few components that are fairly consistent across various tobaccos.

 

[exogenesis]

Keep meaning to say DVap,
hope the joint / disks operation goes well, sure we all wish you the best with it.

And hope you convalesce quickly, the sooner to get back to the WTA still.

 

[DVap]

Keep meaning to say DVap,
hope the joint / disks operation goes well, sure we all wish you the best with it.

And hope you convalesce quickly, the sooner to get back to the WTA still.

Thanks! It was pretty much a non-event except for the post-knockout drug hangover. They gave me the normal dose and I'm told I turned over and started chatting... so they had to hit me harder to keep me down. Now I gotta wait another day or two for the stuff to kick in and knock out the inflammation... still leaves me with a couple disks squeezing out through the torn annuli. If I may offer a word of advice to the younger folks out there, if you want to avoid a lot of aches and pains in life, make it a point to not live past 40.

I was doing some of the snus WTA yesterday as I lazed around recovering, and it didn't taste right.. of course NOTHING tasted right yesterday... more drug hangover, I suppose. The stuff tastes fine now.

I'm not inclined toward doing a first step that involves heating, re condensing, etc. Too much work for an uncertain result.

Cost-wise, The difference isn't that great, especially if the NAS routinely offers a better recovery... it's the dang solvent that's crazy expensive. I'll have an opportunity to see how the snus looks again when I receive the 16 mg stuff from the volunteer who's providing it. I might do some work with a one or two gram portion and confirm that my routine recipe for pH modification applies as well to snus as it does to tobacco.

 

[hittman]

If I may offer a word of advice to the younger folks out there, if you want to avoid a lot of aches and pains in life, make it a point to not live past 40.

Oh great, my life is over! I just turned 40 about six months ago. You could have kept that one to yourself. Just kidding.

 

[brokenbrains]

I'm not inclined toward doing a first step that involves heating, re condensing, etc. Too much work for an uncertain result.

Yeah. I tried the whole steam distillation thing. A lot of hours for not a lot of product. I probably need to do some more tweaking to the apparatus, but even then... Not for the impatient.

Was doing it to get around all the filtering and maybe reduce emulsions, and it worked great for that, but I'd rather just stick to decanting and NaCl as much as possible.

 

[Renro]

Renro - thanks! just a pity I'm not a biochemist and have no lab

It seems that smoking constituents have a positive effect on depression. Obviously not all smokers have clinical depression but many have stress, and for others its just an enjoyable buzz (and these are the take it or leave it ones - dont think this has been discussed but my sister is one, has one or two cigs a week!).

~~~

Had an idea - pure speculative stuff but wonder if it sparks with anyone else. If it is true that nicotine alone is not addictive (for anybody) then it is quite hard to explain why nic alone can work for some people. There are a few possibilities of course that we have discussed many times. But there is another, a bit off-beat, but who knows: that in some people nic can itself activate the reward system / act as or achieve in another way the amplifying effect that is proposed for MAOIs. In other words, nicotine might be more dramatic for some in and of itself, rather than those people don't need such a big effect. An individual difference factor, but an 'upside down' version. Hope that makes some sense.

As an example of how it might work, perhaps for some people cotinine does the MAOI trick sufficiently well. Perhaps for some, nicotine really is able (via metabolites) to create its own boost; the difference could be in the ratios of metabolites, or receptor group sensitivties, or ... After all, cotinine is plentiful with a long half-life too. [The cotinine angle is just one possibility though] If nicotine alone is addictive (and a successful replacement for smoking) for some, but not for others, this might be why. Some people need the minor alkaloids because they can't make their own, so to speak.

Kinabaloo ~ sorry for the misunderstanding. I had assumed that you were a biochemist.
It's gratifying to see you pursue this science nonetheless. You pose an interesting question.

I find this train of thought - to 2497 - very much in line with cancer researchers, their philosophies and approaches. My own thoughts on such reasoning is that both sides are valid and will push research further along as it has done with cancer. There are times that you can improve a condition without knowing the mechanics, and other times understanding the mechanics can facilitate huge leaps in applications and understanding.

 

[kinabaloo]

Kinabaloo ~ sorry for the misunderstanding. I had assumed that you were a biochemist.
It's gratifying to see you pursue this science nonetheless. You pose an interesting question.

I find this train of thought - to 2497 - very much in line with cancer researchers, their philosophies and approaches. My own thoughts on such reasoning is that both sides are valid and will push research further along as it has done with cancer. There are times that you can improve a condition without knowing the mechanics, and other times understanding the mechanics can facilitate huge leaps in applications and understanding.

I agree, but wish to add some comments.

There's no money in prevention or cure. A lot of medical research is basically a scam. Inching forward as slowly as possible while the the research grants are creamed off and used to devise lucrative 'treatments'.

Define successful cancer treatment as tumor shrinkage; devise poisins and radiation treatments and then misdirect that 'oh dear, the cancer has returned'.

Demean the essential roles of nutrition on disease creation and recovery.

Offer money-spinning long term palliatives that lead to side effects that 'require' more drugs.

Sure there are many well-intentioned researchers but many years from now we'll look back at these times in much the way we look at the medicine of medieval times.

This is not the result of eveil minds; just a the inevitable result of a flawed system. The appraoach that makes most profit has taken control of government health and research bodies. It has become itself the disease; health care replaced by disease care.

 

[DVap]

The appraoach that makes most profit has taken control of government health and research bodies. It has become itself the disease; health care replaced by disease care.

I say to that, Amen.

 

[Virk]

My 3 experiments with WTA below.

First, I've been reading these threads for a few months now and have been very interested in WTA. I was going to take up DVAP on the Swedish SNUS offer but I could not find any. Was going to do the whole WTA extraction from tobacco but decided a shortcut with SNUS would be so much simpler, so my experimenting began, a week ago. But before I forget, thank you so much to everyone for all the invaluable information in these posts, I'm adding my own experiences here so maybe it will be helpful.

Some background info to set this up:
~Ex-chain smoker 3 packs/day/30 years, Kools or Marlboro Menthol.
~Currently a chain vaper at 18-24mg, about 5ml/day, can vape up to 36mg not a big difference to me.
~Quit smoking 2 weeks after I started vaping. Almost 4 months now.
~Just before I quit, and for the last year, cigarettes did not satisfy me, I needed more and more.
~When I switched I decided I was fed up and would fight through the withdrawals, it was not pleasant for about 2 weeks but it worked.
~I am not a scientist or chemist but I am a guinea pig for my experiment, YOU are not my experiment, do this at your own risk!

Experiment #1 Marlboro Mint SNUS: Goal is to end up with a satisfying vapeable liquid that Nicotine only juice lacks.
First I tested soaking and extracting at room temp in VG/PG/alcohol/distilled water. Distilled water is my winner.
3 small containers of 3 SNUS each in 3.5ml of distilled water for about 2 hours. Just enough to submerge them completely.
Extract and repeat, squeeze out all the liquid on the 2nd soak and collect in a bottle. Toss the depleted SNUS into a Ziploc bag for use later, they still have a little life left in them

Filtering begins but this is not as easy as I thought it would be. Used a plastic strainer for the first pass, then a gold coffee filter but no dice. Coffee paper filter / gravity fed, nope. Finally a turkey baster forcing the liquid through the coffee filters a few times and the juice is now clean but very dark. Ok, 9 SNUS extracted (twice) = 20ml of clean filtered juice, I'm assuming this is now WTA in a base of distilled water at about 1mg nic, no idea on the other ingredients but I figure you guys know the answer to this. Assumption is the SNUS started at 4mg (36mg) and I end up with just over half extracted (20mg) in about 20ml, lets call it 1mg/ml. Very weak nic right? Or did I already make a math error?

And yes I actually tried to vape this lol, more like steam that made me dizzy and popped an atty. I figure you can only have max about 20% distilled water in the liquid so I add VG to bring the juice to almost 80% vg and almost 20% distilled water.. So 4 drops VG to 1 drop WTA which is distilled water. Anyone know the NIC content at this point? Negligable right?

Now I have what appears to be normal looking juice, still surprisingly dark, consistency is more like my 70pg/30vg juice, smells great so I drip 5 drops and vape away. Tastes great, not much throat hit but feels full. Not dead yet, no forehead hit like was mentioned earlier but wait for it... about 8 puffs and my hair starts tingling, a few more puffs to finish those 5 drops off and whoa, head / scalp feels numb, I kid you not, and a wave of total relaxation like hopping into a hot tub hits me like a truck. I stopped vaping and sat there for about 5 minutes. Earlier I mentioned I'm a chain vaper so 5 minutes is a long time for me. Effects starting to wear off, I grab my normal (nic only) vape and puff away and BAM! it hits again. I think this is the MAOI connection to Nicotine here. This lasted for a good 45 minutes and I did not like it but continued to vape (nic only) to see how long it would last. Ok, this is either really bad for me or it's just way too strong.

Next up, more dilution, 4 to 1 again, now the side affects only hit if I keep vaping this diluted WTA straight. At this point I don't think nicotine can even be measured which brings up the question, I thought my body needed nic?
Conclusion: with enough dilution, a daily vape can be made OR just add 2 drops of the first dilution per cart a couple times a day. This seems to satisfy my cravings and guess what, no more chain vaping. I literally am forgetting to vape now, within reasonable limits, i.e. 15 minutes for me is HUGE! This is definitely doing something for those cravings but is this liquid I've made harmful to me? More so than the regular nic only juices? This is one of my questions for you guys. Also, if the nic level really is this low and you need nic, just add it but apparently I don't need the nic or my math is very wrong.

My observations so far:
~Tastes great and more filling. I'd have to say it fills the void that nic only juice can’t.
~It is potent but extremely smooth juice with no TH which also leads me to believe the nic concentration is very low.
~Nic can be added to increase the TH, I haven’t done this since I usually just add a couple drops to my existing (nic) juice now and life is good.
~I vape a lot less.
~No more side affects after diluting but I'm still satisfied.
~Very very relaxing / calming, I may have figured out a perfect night time vape, more on that later.
~Remember the old "regularity" of bowel movements? They're Baaack!!!
~I'm not nearly as dehydrated because I'm not vaping as much?
~I don't think I'd use this as a daily vape, it's not necessary. Maybe just in the morning and again later on in the day if a craving hits would be enough. Still experimenting but I'm sure I can come up with the perfect dilution / concentration for the perfect daily vape. I love this stuff.
~This can be made inexpensively and relatively quickly, yeah it takes longer than regular DIY and longer than buying a bottle of premade, but honestly, the taste blows away any other juice I've tried so far and the satisfaction alone is perfect. I figure one tin will make 160ml of the strong WTA which can then be diluted again to make a daily vape. I'll be stocking up on SNUS.

Experiment #2 Ariva lozenge: like a Stonewall
Again distilled water dissolves these but they later separate into different layers of 'stuff' which is all just too full of particulates to bother filtering into a vape. Actually the top layer is ok but I have no idea what ingredients are in which layer so I just remixed it all back up with some vodka, pour into a dropper bottle and use like a breath dropper for that little craving I guess. Add a little vodka for giggles. Tasty stuff, Yum!

Experiment #3 Passionflower extract:
This stuff just tastes nasty and let me tell you it's hard to cover it up. So, I diluted 1 drop to 5 drops regular nic juice, and kind of got a similar but milder affect from my WTA, but I did notice within about 15 minutes I was ready to go to bed about an hour earlier than usual. I think I found a night time vape right here, if you can cover up the taste or happen to actually like it? I read there is a MAOI in Passionflower so figured I’d try it. I think it works but can’t stand the taste, I’ll experiment more with it later. It did make me sleepy. I can probably make this work with menthol but other than just before bed why bother now that I have my SNUS WTA. I'll save it for the rare nights that I just can't fall asleep.

Ok, sorry this was a book and if you're all still here, I have some questions:
~Are there any concerns with what I listed above pertaining to health, in comparison to regular e-juice?
~How much nic is in the base liquid, or how much is extracted per SNUS? I'm guessing about 2mg. I think I read that there is 4mg nic per snus?
~How much of the other ingredients and what are they, is it a concern?
~This little experiment has led me to believe that it's NOT the Nicotine that we crave at all; do you think I'm right?
~Do you think this is something more people would benefit from and actually want?

I realize that this is “uncharted” territory and nothing is completely “safe” in this area, I just want to know if there’s anything here that’s blatantly worse than our regular nic only e-juice. I seriously doubt there could be anything worse here than smoking was.

So what do you think? Do you think this could be a good alternative for those who still have that craving for something missing? Perhaps this addresses the issue of the missing MAOI’s that we all used to get and are likely addicted to. I sure ‘feel’ like it does.

Assuming this is not an insanely stupid thing I’ve done, I can’t figure out why this has not already become the most popular liquid on the market. Possibly due to the labor / time involved and maybe all the questions I asked. I already have enough concentrate to make about 200mL of this juice and will be making more after I read your comments about this. I’ll need to order some more empty bottles lol.

Thanks for reading and for leaving input, suggestions, advice and hopefully answers.

Virk

I’ll leave you all with a thought that someone here before me posted (I don’t remember who) and sums up my feelings about how this works for me, paraphrased...

It’s one thing to quit smoking but another thing entirely to Forget to smoke!

 

[kinabaloo]

Virk,

Thanks for the feedback / report.

Good reminder about the distilled water - must mention that on the other thread.

The 'forget to smoke' was Kurt.

Regarding the simple snus soak; yes 1mg / ml would be right. Very interesting that even at 0.25 mg/ml there is still an effect.

Even if we just think MAOIs, these can have their own effects beside acting as MAO inhibitors; can be mildly opiate-like, which I guess is something pleasant in a mild dose. It will be the combination that will be the real winner - nic plus extract.

There will be gums and proteins and such that will ash on the atomiser - not good, but not too terrible either; though not something to do long term. When proteins and sugars are heated together there is the chance for HCAs to form. We eat quite a bit of these; in the lungs might be worse, but only long term would be a possible hazzard.

If you have any handy, try some wine/beer finings to clear the liquid; might get a lot of the proteins and starches out (and any other solids in suspension. If this works well and the alkaloids are still present, then it would be worth checking a new atomiser for deposit levels after say 2 weeks use - if not much worse than with normal e-liquids this would alleviate some of the concerns wrt purity / unwanted stuff.

Some things that might still be in the liquid: terpenes (dont dissolve in water but might be present if there are still minute flakes of snus suspended in the liquid), flavonoids, sugars. The sugars would ash on the atomiser coil, not producing anything too toxic - a little CO perhaps.

When you say you tested the different solvents - just for color or did you try vaping them ? Color might not be a good indicator of desired alkaloid strength.

Thought of as an additive to e-liquid, the cost is excellent for the amount that can be made / little that is needed. Personally, I wouldn't be too worried about vaping it, especially in such small amounts.

We know snus has the 'missing factor' but not evryone would care for snus in its normal mode of use. If this simple preparation helps people avoid smoking, it's a good thing.

I am wondering now about something - if a 'WTA' at 0.2 mg / ml can have noticeable effect, suggesting that solvent extraction of some of these non-nicotine alkaloids is FAR more efficient than their release in a burning cigarette, why is snus not too powerful when just popped in the mouth? Could you be mistaking great taste for alkaloid effect? Or is there another explanation: Perhaps absorbtion by lung is much more effective for these alkaloids ?

 

[Virk]

Ok so my math was right, this is very interesting indeed.
The solvents, I actually went on color and did not test, I could not see anything happening with the PG or VG so dumped it and went to Distilled water. The alcohol was working slowly and I was impatient and switched it as well, never tested it.

Besides the first atty I popped on the 2nd puff of water lol, i know i know haha. It's been almost two weeks on multiple atty's, no buildup noticeable, I do clean / burn them when needed and just did an alcohol soak and dry burn on them about 5 days ago. I have 5 different atty's going at a time, they're all doing great.

Of course this is a quite diluted mix, anything stronger is just totally not needed and would be a waste. I'm vaping the 4 to 1 mix which I add 1 drop to 4 more nic drops, so very diluted. End result is this is diluted more than 8 to 1 for my daily vape.

I'm still so surprised at the lack of nicotine in this and I have no cravings whatsoever.
I have added nic for TH on occasion but it's really not needed.

 

[kinabaloo]

Ok so my math was right, this is very interesting indeed.
The solvents, I actually went on color and did not test, I could not see anything happening with the PG or VG so dumped it and went to Distilled water. The alcohol was working slowly and I was impatient and switched it as well, never tested it.

Besides the first atty I popped on the 2nd puff of water lol, i know i know haha. It's been almost two weeks on multiple atty's, no buildup noticeable, I do clean / burn them when needed and just did an alcohol soak and dry burn on them about 5 days ago. I have 5 different atty's going at a time, they're all doing great.

Of course this is a quite diluted mix, anything stronger is just totally not needed and would be a waste. I'm vaping the 4 to 1 mix which I add 1 drop to 4 more nic drops, so very diluted. End result is this is diluted more than 8 to 1 for my daily vape.

I'm still so surprised at the lack of nicotine in this and I have no cravings whatsoever.
I have added nic for TH on occasion but it's really not needed.

Must bear in mind that at least some people may not really need the nicotine at all, just whatever the other alkaloids do. This would still include MAO inhibiting action, but maybe not just that.

ps: I have added a lot more notes to my post above.

 

[kinabaloo]

Virk,

Seems you have converted 1 day's snus into 80ml (~30 days) vaping liquid (effectively minus the nicotine). This does seem too good to be true!