So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[kinabaloo]

????? wheeww, can't bluff myself through this one. I think I was almost comprehending something when I got to your note to Dvap. First, my eyes started to water, drooled a little, then my head exploded. Not sure what happened while blacked out, but my left eyelid is quivering and all the neighbors' lights are all on. ?? Thanks, though.

That last post is pretty technical. The p terms refer to the location of electrons and the strength of bonds.

Compounds are composed of atoms, which have protons and neutrons in the center and electrons around the outside. The electrons can be swapped or shared to create a bond between two compounds.

Some links that might be helpful:

Types of chemical bond: Chemical Bonds
Comaprison of ionic and covalent bonding: Covalent Bonds vs Ionic Bonds - Difference and Comparison - Diffen
Polar bonds and solubility in water: Chemical polarity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lone pairs: Lone pair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kinabaloo]

Oh, and DVap, your protonation comment about which N is more basic. The amine N has an sp3 lone pair, the pyridine N has an sp2 lone pair. sp3 has more p-character than sp2 (3/4 vs 2/3) and so reaches out more, like a p, and grabs protons more. pKb of amines are around 4, pyridine is I think around 10. So it is right in line with what I would expect as far as which is going to salt first. Plus alkyl groups tend to donate e- character, making the N even more basic than ammonia.

To understand what Kurt is talking about, have a look here:

CHAPTER 21: AMINES

 

[Kurt]

TV, just spend the last five minutes laughing non-stop!! Not sure if it is just a small picture of you, but you look like a long haired Nick Cage. So it was his voice I heard talking about whatever damage your exploding head did to the neighbors house. Thanks, I definitely needed the laugh.

Ya, I figured the comment to DVap might cause a reaction after I posted...just ignore it, he will understand. Chemistry information, unless you really know it well, can sometimes be for the recipient something just short of psychological warfare. All I can say is everything here is essential and as you put so well, revolutionary. Its not incredibly important for you to understand all the stuff I was talking about with MAO, but I can promise a helluva journey if you try! Personally I think people should know more chemistry than they do...and if there is a ban, and we want to continue vaping, then we all become chemists. Although these days with all the flavors I'm playing with, I feel more like a chef. And that's cool too.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Types of chemical bond: Chemical Bonds
Comaprison of ionic and covalent bonding: Covalent Bonds vs Ionic Bonds - Difference and Comparison - Diffen
Polar bonds and solubility in water: Chemical polarity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lone pairs: Lone pair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

CHAPTER 21: AMINES

Looking up now, kin. Thanks, still picking up pieces of hair, but, at least most of the neighbors' lights have gone back off.

 

[Kurt]

That last post is pretty technical. The p terms refer to the location of electrons and the strength of bonds.

Compounds are composed of atoms, which have protons and neutrons in the center and electrons around the outside. The electrons can be swapped or shared to create a bond between two compounds.

Some links that might be helpful:

Types of chemical bond: Chemical Bonds
Comaprison of ionic and covalent bonding: Covalent Bonds vs Ionic Bonds - Difference and Comparison - Diffen
Polar bonds and solubility in water: Chemical polarity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lone pairs: Lone pair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks Kin! These are great links! And very good to have linked here. Folks, if this stuff doesn't make sense, do not think you are stupid!! Chemistry takes a LONG time to understand well, and there are vast amounts I don't understand yet myself. Being in the field for many years though has taught me that when I don't understand it just means it is new, not that I am an idiot...of course that doesn't mean I'm NOT an idiot, just that the chemistry didn't make me that way. The '70s did.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

.

Ya, I figured the comment to DVap might cause a reaction after I posted...just ignore it, quote]
Too late...growth already stunted...damage already done.

 

[DVap]

This is what happens when I take a day off outta here to take my grandson hiking up in the mountains. I get reminded how much I've known that I've forgotten!

When I read that chapter on amine chemistry, I was feeling kinda dumb myself. I've studied every bit of that in the deep past and it all made perfect sense to me once upon a time. The benefit of a chemistry background is that when faced with incomprehensible detail, it's all familiar incomprehensible detail, and I know exactly to which chapter of exactly which of my old textbooks I'll have to turn to soak it all back in and remember the relevant nuances. The part that's kinda funny, it's not so much my organic textbook, or my inorganic textbook, or even qualitative or quantitative analysis that I need to revisit (and please, I never want to open my physical chemistry text ever again!). It's my first year chemistry I need to brush back up on. I knew a lot of this stuff better in high school than I do now... The university actually let me skip first year chemistry, but I had to sit down with the previous year's final exam to do it, and anything less than a 90 meant I'd have to take the course. I got a 98, went straight to organic chemisty, passed go and collected $200. And now, I can't remember half of it.

A little secret about chemistry that Kurt will probably agree with.. we study all these difference branches of chemistry, love some of them and hate others.. then we get our degree, go to work, and only use and grow our expertise with a small fraction of the stuff we spent all that time learning. We hardly think about the rest for years at a stretch. Fortunately for me, in the current context of dissecting vaping chemicals, analytical chemistry was the chemical discipline I kept up with year after year.

 

[DVap]

Just as a general FYI, after making 14.3 mL of 28 mg WTA in PG/VG, early Saturday, I shipped 7.5 mL off to my guinea pig who is so far generally anonymous, but he might raise his hand if he's inclined, it's really up to him.

I did specify "For laboratory use only, not for human consumption", and I leave it up to him to either honor the wise counsel of the label, or not.

This left me with 6.8 mL, and I sadly sacrificed 1 mL to confirm that the gravimetric and volumetric preparation of the WTA mix in PG/VG would actually test out at the level predicted by these measurements. It did, so it was a sad loss, but a valuable one. Now I was down to 5.8 mL and I figured I'd earned a good hard vaping session or two with an anvil in a velvet glove. I was very mellow when I discovered I had only 5 mL of the 28 mg WTA liquid left. So early Saturday afternoon, I cut the 5 mL in half with PG/VG, and now I had 10 mL of a 14 mg WTA liquid. This one is more my level, and it is the one I vaped the bulk of Saturday and all of Sunday (Including some relaxing vaping while I was climbing a steep and rocky trail with my 7 year old grandson trying but failing to drive me crazy.) Seeing as the boy was around the whole weekend, it was a lively weekend, and my vaping was more "just vaping" than spending time "thinking about vaping", I let the vaping spirit carry me where it would.

So here I sit after all of that.. with the WTA bottle that I used Saturday and Sunday. It started at 10 mL, and currently sits at 7 mL.

14 mg WTA (~12.5 in nicotine) - two days, 1.5 mL per day. My normal vaping of 12.5 mg nicotine is 2.5 mL per day. Still vaping at 60% of my normal pace, and still feeling good. Got that "Brick wrapped in a velvet glove feeling" in my throat and that groovy feeling going down in my head.

It will be interesting to see what my x-factor addicted guinea pig thinks of the WTA mix at 28 mg. Will he honor my labeling and keep it out of his atty? 8-o Stay tuned.

 

[kinabaloo]

This is what happens when I take a day off outta here to take my grandson hiking up in the mountains. I get reminded how much I've known that I've forgotten!

You really have been chilling since you made that new vape juice

Just two days, and forget chemistry, retreat to mountain !

lol

 

[IANAN]

Some more research and articles to help people understand this;

Effects of Nicotine on the body and an explanation of the smokers Paradox (The 4 group matrix DVap is explained by this) ;

Nicotine - Psychology Wiki

Basic summary: Nicotine in low doses works as a stimulate but it is unique as it also effects dopamine and serotonin levels in high doses working as a pain killer/sedative at high doses. Smokers Paradox is the fact that smoking does provide therapeutic benefits to the user for many aliments.

beta-carbolines as potentiating agents(The MOAIs in tobacco- Harmala alkaloids to be exact);
Neuro-Alchemy: Beta-Carbolines as Potentiating Agents

Basically it may be that the Harman in the tobacco smoke is potentiating something else in the smoke-- it could also be having a synergistic effect with the nicotine.

More on beta-carbolines; Interaction of beta-carboline inverse agonists for the benzodiazepine site with

An easy to read article on beta-carbolines, thier chemical structures, and links on whuch plants have them;

Cornell University Department of Animal Science
Cornell University Department of Animal Science

And let's not forget our friend chocolate.... it contains beta-carbolines also;

Tetrahydro-beta-carbolines, potential neuroactive ... [J Agric Food Chem. 2000] - PubMed result

 

[olderthandirt]

And again, good morning all.

I tend to get a similar reaction as TV when attempting to follow the more technical aspects of this thread. Saving grace is my lack of hair, less debris from exploding head syndrome. And there's the introductory course's to human biology and medical terminology I took a few years back. Introductory mind. I can successfully pronounce just about every word I see in this thread! Comprehension is an entirely different thang...

Hello Kurt, your input has certainly added to this thread! I do understand, now, that the articles you cite are meant for kin, DVap primarily. Possible secondary intent of causing more popped eyeballs for Twisted 8-o

Thank you IANAN for the article's that you've added here. I was actually able to follow those!

TV, I think the the right thing for you to do is simply give your neighbors fair warning before you start into this thread Me, I like making my neighbors scratch their heads in wonder at the maniacal laughter some of the more technical parts elicit.

OK, I'm going back to the peanut gallery now....

 

[Vaporer]

I have this great image in my head of the resident chemist hiking in the mountains with his grandson, vaping liquid analog, reminising mindfully of things past, unaware of much more than the pleasantness of enjoying the present more than he normally would and the world looking quite different at the time and not focused the least on why.
Just enjoying the moment.
A well deserved break there and with the grandson too.

You can insert tie dyed or paisley print if you so desire with the approiate music softly in the background.

Edit: The past few days of chemistry posts were deep reading to say the least. When done, I looked up and all I saw was the bottom of my socks weren't yellow from analog smoke that used to be in the carpet.

 

[Kurt]

Basic summary: Nicotine in low doses works as a stimulate but it is unique as it also effects dopamine and serotonin levels in high doses working as a pain killer/sedative at high doses. Smokers Paradox is the fact that smoking does provide therapeutic benefits to the user for many aliments.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11052752

IANAN, excellent links! Related: see my thread

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/health-safety-e-smoking/45324-nicotine-nerve-pain.html

Nic was originally for me a nerve-pain analgesic. I had Guillain-Barre syndrome, GBS (Guillain?Barré syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), and suffer from fundamental nerve pain. Opiates, like codeine and morphine, do not treat it. Nic, and a touch of THC, do. Nic is best, especially inhaled. Oral NRTs didn't cut it. Smoking works by far the best. Nerves are the first place I feel nic withdrawals when trying to quit smoking.

But since vaping for two months, and down to maybe 5 analogs a week, I've had no nerve pain issues at all. And my peripheral nerves know a placebo effect, and laugh at it. Typing is especially problematic for me, which is a problem because I do computational chemistry...all computer/keyboard, all the time. And I don't think anyone would accuse me of limiting my typing here. My 510 system, and 16-24 mg juices, are the best nerve pain medicine I have found yet.

But let's not gum up this thread with that...although it is interesting that tricyclics, like some MAOI's, are used for fundamental nerve pain treatment, so maybe it is ALL related to our blessed and holy WTA, hallowed be thy name...*sound of choir*.

 

[frankie1]

I am just lurking......better to be thought a fool than open my mouth and prove it! LOL

I seriously appreciate the effort put forth by all of you. I thought I was going crazy but maybe...I'm not sooo crazy after all.

After switching to a low tar cig (yeah, I know NOW) and working in offices where smoking was not allowed, I developed the habit of smoking very fast and all the way down. I wonder if the concentrates in that last 1/4 analog are making it more difficult to quit analogs even with the vape?

 

[olderthandirt]

I am just lurking......better to be thought a fool than open my mouth and prove it! LOL...

Hey! That's my line

How are ya frankie?

 

[DVap]

Hmm.. interesting. I was too busy with work for a vape since early in the morning. Just took a few swipes off the WTA at 14 mg. Felt all the cross-talk in my head from the day slip away and cue that sense of well-being.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

This is what happens when I take a day off outta here to take my grandson hiking up in the mountains.

Yah, Dvap, I think the class got a little out of hand, too. They were saying crazy stuff and all...

I knew a lot of this stuff better in high school than I do now...
.

My science teacher showed me how to make mini Hindenburgs using Lye, aluminum foil and balloons.

I figured I'd earned a good hard vaping session or two with an anvil in a velvet glove. I was very mellow when I discovered I had only 5 mL of the 28 mg WTA liquid left.

I agree, you've sure earned it. Teaser.

Possible secondary intent of causing more popped eyeballs for Twisted 8-o

...

Last one popped back in, still a little cockeyed, though.

Just enjoying the moment.
A well deserved break there and with the grandson too.

Ditto

I thought I was going crazy but maybe...I'm not sooo crazy after all.

quote]


Then again,.... At least we can keep each other company.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Hmm.. interesting. I was too busy with work for a vape since early in the morning. Just took a few swipes off the WTA at 14 mg. Felt all the cross-talk in my head from the day slip away and cue that sense of well-being.

Aaaahhh. So, you're hearing them, too, eh? Question: Now that you're feeling this, do you think that possibly you've suffered, to a lesser degree, the same effects as some of us? Just curious.

 

[Kurt]

Another issue I have been thinking about, and mentioned elsewhere here, is the paper used in US cigs now. It doesn't burn down on its own, supposedly to keep houses from burning down from sleeping smokers. They now generally go out if you don't keep dragging on them.

My point? You smoke a cig from beginning to end on a break. But now the cig doesn't burn down a little between drags. So in the end, more is going into you than before, probably 2-3x as much. Thus the Winston lights I was smoking two years ago deliver less of everything than the ones that can be purchased today. More of everything means more nic to get addicted to, and more nasties to die from.

If you have to regulate the amount of nic in the cigarette, and can't jack it up due to the FDA, this is a way around that...just spin it in terms of safety, and everyone says good job!! But this explains why quitting was so important to me this fall...cigs were making me feel sick and toxic, and now I know why.

In terms of this thread, this has implications on the actual amounts we are trying to simulate. Have blood test been done since the paper change? Or am I just making something up here?

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Another issue I have been thinking about, and mentioned elsewhere here, is the paper used in US cigs now. It doesn't burn down on its own, supposedly to keep houses from burning down from sleeping smokers. They now generally go out if you don't keep dragging on them.

My point? You smoke a cig from beginning to end on a break. But now the cig doesn't burn down a little between drags. So in the end, more is going into you than before, probably 2-3x as much. Thus the Winston lights I was smoking two years ago deliver less of everything than the ones that can be purchased today. More of everything means more nic to get addicted to, and more nasties to die from.

If you have to regulate the amount of nic in the cigarette, and can't jack it up due to the FDA, this is a way around that...just spin it in terms of safety, and everyone says good job!! But this explains why quitting was so important to me this fall...cigs were making me feel sick and toxic, and now I know why.

In terms of this thread, this has implications on the actual amounts we are trying to simulate. Have blood test been done since the paper change? Or am I just making something up here?

Da da dummmm. The plot thickens ! BT's not gonna be happy with Dvap.