So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[Vocalek]

If my mind is just playing placebo effect tricks on, fine by me. Though my opinion is you are playing a mind trick on yourself in believing that nicotine has that great of an effect on your personality. You are who you are. When you quit nicotine completely, sure you will be irritable as any other junkie without their fix. But as time goes on and your body and mind get used to no nicotine, you will return to who you are. You do not need nicotine to suck it up and be nice to someone, you will be able to do that all by yourself without nicotine (though none of us really want to).

Nope. Something is going on that affects patience. My husband quit smoking three years ago. Prior to that, he was a pretty mellow guy who took things in stride. That's the kind of guy he was all his life. Now, he is very prone to flying off the handle when we are out driving in traffic, and little things seem to get to him more than they ever did.

This is NOT a case of him playing mind tricks on himself because he did not notice this had occurred until I pointed it out to him a couple of months ago. If it is a case of waiting for the nicotine withdrawal symptoms to wear off, I would think that three years is time enough!

 

[frankie1]

Also, I'm sure many are dying to ask so I will answer for you. No, I'm not having severe after WTA cravings, but it was only a 2-3 day test. A proof of validity, not many years of daily usage.

Ahhh..that answers my question. There must be some build up or training of the brain from years of smoking or we could just quit for a month, go back for a few days, quit again for a month...etc.! LOL that would be nice. Might also account for some accounts of the ease of using the ecig...maybe some didn't smoke as long?

 

[Vaporer]

Kin,
I'm looking at it as less is more. Why add to the craving part with another substitute, even if less or unharmful?
I can see WTA or the main constituients used as a "vacation day" but regular use if it added that horrible craving back, I'd prefer to avoid if snus and dissolvables will get me through, vaping less in the mean time to boot.

You want your cake and eat it too may be more than you like in the long haul. Depending on which is the key and does it cause the effect.
Guess it's what a person is willing to live with.

 

[Stubby]

Vaporer: I'm sure you do know that the full spectrum of WTA is very likely in snus. Did you feel there was a difference in the effect of WTA e-liquid? The only thing I have noticed after 6 months of snus use is that my cravings don't seem to be quite as desperate. I can now get up in the morning and at least brush my teeth and take a shower before my first nicotine of the day. When I smoked I needed a smoke just to get out of bed.

I never allow my nicotine levels to fall low enough during the day to kick in cravings but my body is telling me my nicotine addiction is little changed (I could be wrong on this, but I'm not about try and temporarily quit all nicotine to find out). I'm really not all that concerned with my nicotine addiction, just the risk associated with it.

 

[kinabaloo]

Kin,
I'm looking at it as less is more. Why add to the craving part with another substitute, even if less or unharmful?
I can see WTA or the main constituients used as a "vacation day" but regular use if it added that horrible craving back, I'd prefer to avoid if snus and dissolvables will get me through, vaping less in the mean time to boot.

You want your cake and eat it too may be more than you like in the long haul. Depending on which is the key and does it cause the effect.
Guess it's what a person is willing to live with.

I don't get your point.

If using a satisfying product, no craving, unless you withdraw from using it, and nic alone does that too.

With nic alone, there is for some a partial craving that can only be avoided by the full alkaloids - whether WTA or maybe snus.

 

[316lvm]

I've read through this entire thread and people's thoughts on whether we're getting nic or not from e-cigs.

This is just my observation.

It appears there is a need for a reliable study done on the effects of e-cigs vs. analogs. Mere blood tests aren't reliable enough.

1. A study needs to be done on the DELIVERY system of the nic.

2. Isolate just the nicotine in an analog state and in a vapor state.

3. Determine the absorbtion rate between the two. Is nicotine delivered faster into the bloodstream via combustible gases or via vapor? Does one system desposit nicotine instantly, or slowly?

4. What is the half life of nicotine delivered via the 2 delivery systems? (how long does the nic last in the body over a perioed of time)

5. How is the nicotine metabolized in the body via the delivery systems?
For instance, suppositories are faster in delivering medicines vs. oral intake. IV inject is faster than intra muscular. Is combustiable gasses metablized faster than vapor in the body or lungs?

6. Repeat the process with different mg of nic.

This would establish a baseline data of strength, absorbtion, delivery system, and metabolism.

From there, one could use the baseline data and apply it to different analogs, amount of nic used or consumed, rates of consumption, etc.

There are studies that have been done that show that nicotine is a drug and that it does effect the brain. But how does it effect the brain? Does it alter the overall chemical balance or just certain chemicals and their receptors? What is the chemcial makeup of the brain on test subjects prior to study? What other chemicals effect the brain and nic relationship ie., aspirin, hormones, caffeine?

In the meantime, any "study" is merely supposition leading to much conjecture and a whole lot more questions.

That's JMHO.

 

[kinabaloo]

JMHO - only about 45% of the nic in eliquid reaches the body. Most of that is probably absorbed but quite a lot slower as the nic is in a liquid (and the particle size, droplets in the case of eliquid, are larger and so less reaches the lungs where it would be absorbed faster than in the mouth). Tobacco smoke contains other active elements beside nicotine (and all the dangerous stuff).

 

[DVap]

Where are we really with all of this?

The empirical observation that, "Nicotine e-liquids and NRT's are missing something", has gained a measure of credibility, at least among those following this thread, via the results of very limited testing that suggests if you put the whole tobacco alkaloids into an e-liquid, then the feeling of "something missing" subsides. Thus, the notion that nicotine is the "be all, end all" of tobacco addiction is challenged experimentally.

Some of us have used tobacco absolute, which represents the other side of the extraction process. I.E. Extract the tobacco, get rid of the alkaloids, and keep everything else. Those of us who have used tobacco absolute know that it provides flavoring, but little else.

I have no problem with speculation, because it is through this speculation that strong themes emerge. "Nicotine E-liquid is missing something", was, for awhile, a speculation that emerged as a theme to which many folks were able to nod in agreement. It was a speculation that could be put to the test by us here in this forum. Personally, I think we're coming toward the end of what we can demonstrate experimentally. The complexity of the next stage, dissecting the tobacco alkaloid spread, may be more challenging than we, the un-financed, can tackle.

We don't know a great deal, but we still know some things we didn't before, and considering that the medical and scientific community appear largely blind to what we've come to know, mainly that nicotine is not the "be all, end all" of tobacco addiction, we've done a pretty good job.

 

[olderthandirt]

...We don't know a great deal, but we still know some things we didn't before, and considering that the medical and scientific community appear largely blind to what we've come to know, mainly that nicotine is not the "be all, end all" of tobacco addiction, we've done a pretty good job.

Hear hear!

And another round of snus for all!

 

[Vaporer]

As I said DVap, the intention of the thread has been met IMHO and more.
I respectively reserve answering some questions in the public forum until round 2 is done and should soon start. It would be easy to implant unconsiencously ideas, thoughts and certain things the testers need to sort for themselves without any skewed comments.

 

[IANAN]

Adding the two together, whole body exposure would be 85 ng/analog or 1.7 ug/pack.

They'd have to be potent little MAOI's...

They are quit potent little buggers.... Not to mention they do more than just inhibit MOA

 

[IANAN]

I've read through this entire thread and people's thoughts on whether we're getting nic or not from e-cigs.

This is just my observation.

It appears there is a need for a reliable study done on the effects of e-cigs vs. analogs. Mere blood tests aren't reliable enough.

1. A study needs to be done on the DELIVERY system of the nic.

2. Isolate just the nicotine in an analog state and in a vapor state.

3. Determine the absorbtion rate between the two. Is nicotine delivered faster into the bloodstream via combustible gases or via vapor? Does one system desposit nicotine instantly, or slowly?

4. What is the half life of nicotine delivered via the 2 delivery systems? (how long does the nic last in the body over a perioed of time)

5. How is the nicotine metabolized in the body via the delivery systems?
For instance, suppositories are faster in delivering medicines vs. oral intake. IV inject is faster than intra muscular. Is combustiable gasses metablized faster than vapor in the body or lungs?

6. Repeat the process with different mg of nic.

This would establish a baseline data of strength, absorbtion, delivery system, and metabolism.

From there, one could use the baseline data and apply it to different analogs, amount of nic used or consumed, rates of consumption, etc.

There are studies that have been done that show that nicotine is a drug and that it does effect the brain. But how does it effect the brain? Does it alter the overall chemical balance or just certain chemicals and their receptors? What is the chemcial makeup of the brain on test subjects prior to study? What other chemicals effect the brain and nic relationship ie., aspirin, hormones, caffeine?

In the meantime, any "study" is merely supposition leading to much conjecture and a whole lot more questions.

That's JMHO.

JMHO-- We can answer some of these.

1. Health NZ did this study. It's being absorbed in the upper respiratory tract with the vaporizer. This was presented at the Dublin 2009 meeting of the Society for Research on Nicotine and Tobacco

2... Not sure what you are looking at on this one... This was looked at. We also looked at amount being delivered.

3. Health NZ did this study. We get a Tmax (Total max) of Nic at 14 minutes from the Cig, 19.5 Min from the PV, and 30 Min from the Nicorete Inhaler.

4 and 5--once we hit Tmax in the blood system the halflife should be the same as should the metabolism.

 

[IANAN]

(Cat's Claw) Day four;

1. Desire to smoke- Cravings more or less unnoticed while working- just find myself in areas at certain times where smoking occurs. Greatest desire to smoke is still in morning. Strong urge seems reduced but just find myself in areas at certain times in the day where smoking is occurring.

2. Mental Awareness state (Mental Fog)- No loss of volition in the morning. Loss of volition in mid afternoon-early evening when coffee and second dose of Cat's Claw was late. Smoking (Chain smoking) itself did not clear the mental fog nor did the consumption of tea. Only after coffee was administered did the mental fog and lack of volition cease.

3. Anxiety (Relaxed state) and restlessness- Slept soundly the night before . Period of excess energy similar to caffeine buzz not present. In general no anxiety. General feeling of well-being earlier in the day and after final dose of coffee and Cat's Claw.

4. Perceived GI (Gastro-intestinal) effects including effects on bowl movements- Much more frequent than normal.

5. Effectiveness of and frequency of vaping sessions to reduce cravings- Still most effective when drinking coffee or eating chocolate .

6. Number of traditional cigarettes consumed (If any)- 16

 

[rickghouse]

She's going to buy these compounds? And then make what, 36x dilution onto sugar spheres?

Sorry, I should have given a better explanation. My friend does not rely only on Homeopathy. Contact is being made with various laboratories, to research the possbilties of producing an alcohol based compound containing desired alkaloids in the same proportions as tobacco.

Naturally, this would be for laboritory experimental purposes only.

However, if some accidentaly got mixed with my 36mg ECOPure KRYSTAL, and I accidentally vaped it, wouldn't that be interesting!

Rick.

 

[olderthandirt]

Hi Rick
old guy here that's been hanging by on by his false teeth trying to follow this thread.

Your looking at replacing the alkaloid's/good stuff, (said I was hanging by my teeth), that have been removed from the liquid that we currently have available, achieving an end result similar to what DVap is looking at doing by hopefully leaving the natural components in place to begin with.

Is that any where close to correct?

Yep, I still get dizzy following this stuff but I keep coming back!

 

[DVap]

Hi Rick
old guy here that's been hanging by on by his false teeth trying to follow this thread.

Your looking at replacing the alkaloid's/good stuff, (said I was hanging by my teeth), that have been removed from the liquid that we currently have available, achieving an end result similar to what DVap is looking at doing by hopefully leaving the natural components in place to begin with.

Is that any where close to correct?

Yep, I still get dizzy following this stuff but I keep coming back!

OTD,

It appears that Rick is looking to use reagent chemicals to produce a mixture of....

1 nicotine (l- only)
2 nornicotine (l- & d-)
3 myosmine
4 nicotyrine
5 anabasine
6 anatabine
7 2,3-dipyridyl
8 N-methyl-anabasine
9 N-methyl-anatabine

...in similar ratios as can be found quoted in the literature to try to a) reduce the chemical soup, and b) to see if this reduction of the chemical soup might have efficacy in excess of that of nicotine alone.

 

[olderthandirt]

Uh huh...

I should know by this point to not even ask

And once again, I'm back to the peanut gallery....

thanks

 

[Kurt]

Sorry, I should have given a better explanation. My friend does not rely only on Homeopathy. Contact is being made with various laboratories, to research the possbilties of producing an alcohol based compound containing desired alkaloids in the same proportions as tobacco.

Naturally, this would be for laboritory experimental purposes only.

However, if some accidentaly got mixed with my 36mg ECOPure KRYSTAL, and I accidentally vaped it, wouldn't that be interesting!

Rick.

Ah, now THAT I like! Thanks for clarifying, rick! Would be most interested in hearing your friends views about all of this. I would say my use of nic is very UNhomeopathic. But this is right up the alley of a good naturopath, for sure. Seems a naturopath would insist on a WTA approach...it is for the most part naturopathic by definition. Please let us know what you find out!

 

[IANAN]

OTD,

It appears that Rick is looking to use reagent chemicals to produce a mixture of....

1 nicotine (l- only)
2 nornicotine (l- & d-)
3 myosmine
4 nicotyrine
5 anabasine
6 anatabine
7 2,3-dipyridyl
8 N-methyl-anabasine
9 N-methyl-anatabine


...in similar ratios as can be found quoted in the literature to try to a) reduce the chemical soup, and b) to see if this reduction of the chemical soup might have efficacy in excess of that of nicotine alone.

Rick,

I would toss in some;

10 acetaldehyde
11 norharman
12 harman

as well.

Acetaldehyde is found naturally in coffee (What you thought I put coffee in the Tx only for the harman and norharman - It was in the Tx for 4 reasons- when I write it all up I explain it all), baked bread, apples, onions, broccoli, grapes, lemon, citrus, and other sources and is known to have a synergistic effect with Nicotine. The only problem is that it is most likely a carcinogen based on animal data ....

Acetaldehyde's ROC (Report on Carcinogen's) Page http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/eleventh/profiles/s001acet.pdf

The ROC puts it at (980 μg/cigarette to 1.37 mg/cigarette)

 

[IANAN]

Found another goodie;

This one from;

Role of acetaldehyde in tobacco smoke addiction
European Neuropsychopharmacology, Volume 17, Issue 10, Pages 627-636
R. Talhout, A. Opperhuizen, J. van Amsterdam

Abstract

This review evaluates the presumed contribution of acetaldehyde to tobacco smoke addiction. In rodents, acetaldehyde induces reinforcing effects, and acts in concert with nicotine. Harman and salsolinol, condensation products of acetaldehyde and biogenic amines, may be responsible for the observed reinforcing effect of acetaldehyde. Harman and salsolinol inhibit monoamine oxidase (MAO), and some MAO-inhibitors are known to increase nicotine self-administration and maintain behavioural sensitization to nicotine. Harman is formed in cigarette smoke, and blood harman levels appear to be 2–10 times higher compared to non-smokers. Since harman readily passes the blood–brain barrier and has sufficient MAO-inhibiting potency, it may contribute to the lower MAO-activity observed in the brain of smokers. In contrast, the minor amounts of salsolinol that can be formed in vivo most likely do not contribute to tobacco addiction. Thus, acetaldehyde may increase the addictive potential of tobacco products via the formation of acetaldehyde-biogenic amine adducts in cigarette smoke and/or in vivo, but further research is necessary to substantiate this hypothesis.

In otherwords Harman is being formed by the Acetaldehyde in addition to being present all by itself. Would need to find out how much Harman is being produced from the Acetaldehyde plus how much is in there already...

Like I said Harman--- It's a potent little bugger.

Probably could take out the Acetaldehyde and just put more Harman in there.