So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[a2dcovert]

My dad died in 1999 with people thinking the same after a triple bypass in the 80's. He quit for 3 years, started running marathons, did the whole 9 yards. I never believed a nicotine craving drove him back to it (actually, he blamed me, but in a tongue-in-cheek way, sorta like saying the dog farted...he did that alot, too). I didn't understand about the maoi thing, but I did understand the calming effects that are unique to cigarettes, and saw that as something he needed that didn't come from exercise or diet.

That's some story. I was fortunate I guess. My Dad was a smoker and an alcoholic. He died while driving a tractor drunk, 2 weeks after I got married. Years ago I was a social drinker but luckily it never went any further. I was able to say one day that I just didn't want to drink any more.

A2D: Try Discreet. There are very few choices for domestic snus. Many find Camel and Marlboro too sweet and/or not strong enough. Discreet is tasty and has 7.4mg of nicotine (just about perfect). Online outlets like getsnus.com have Discreet at very reasonable prices (six new packs arrived in my mail today; strawberry and peach). They are mini pouches, invisible in use.

Thanks TB that gives me some guidance. I looked at OTD's score card and was kind of lost sa to what to buy.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Thanks TB that gives me some guidance. I looked at OTD's score card and was kind of lost sa to what to buy.

Just watch out for Discreet "Full Flavor". Gruesome, to say the least . And if you want to give 'em a try (might suit you) don't leave the baggie open unless you want to clear the room. A real maggot gagger for me.

 

[a2dcovert]

Just watch out for Discreet "Full Flavor". Gruesome, to say the least . And if you want to give 'em a try (might suit you) don't leave the baggie open unless you want to clear the room. A real maggot gagger for me.

Thanks for the heads up TV.

 

[DVap]

And I've tried soaking many kinds of tobacco in many kinds of liquids to create e-liquid. This just does not work. Sorry. Nic levels seem ridiculously low. The stuff stinks. It's dirty. Tars, etc., move into the liquid from the tobacco. This is not a route to take, in my opinion based on testing and Mason jars of black crap in my refrigerator.

Bob is exactly right about the standard approaches folks take to try to extract something vapable and efficacious from tobacco. They don't work, they won't work, and they can't work.

This is where I'm conflicted. On one hand, I know how to get what we want and leave behind what we don't want, but on the other hand, as much as I'd like to, I can't bring myself to publish a "how to" since accomplishing this involves technical work with safety concerns that I just can't brush aside. Compare producing WTA to working on a jet engine. I could follow the instructions, use the tools, and possibly get the thing put together with no extra parts left over, but would I want to fly in the plane I just worked on? No, I'm not a jet mechanic.

I've found that my latest alternate approach to WTA isolation (the first alternate approach was a steaming pile of failure) does work reasonably well. It eliminates a somewhat toxic material and replaces it with a far less toxic but highly flammable material. (I had a beaker with about 600 mL of this stuff ignite on me in college, it was not fun). Then there's the issue of knowing how much WTA has actually been isolated. At every turn, regardless of the procedure, isolating WTA involves some technical work best left to a chemist. There's really very little room for guesswork.

As far as getting WTA without smoking, Swedish snus is where it's at. It's (relatively) safe, commercially available, and has a sufficient variety available to appeal to most tastes.

Again, I hate to feel like I'm "holding back" but if nothing else, we've fairly satisfied ourselves that whole tobacco alkaloids represent the x-factor, and that being the case, we've been able to identify Swedish snus as the available smoking alternative that best provides it.

 

[Mister]

What a great story, Mister.

Thanks TropicalBob. And thank you for your many good posts on these forums. Forums like this contain a wealth of information for people who embrace "Search." I've learned that when I search for something and your name appears in the found messages, that's a post I want to check out. Your past posts are among those which continue to be interesting and useful to future readers.

 

[Mister]

Again, I hate to feel like I'm "holding back" but if nothing else, we've fairly satisfied ourselves that whole tobacco alkaloids represent the x-factor, and that being the case, we've been able to identify Swedish snus as the available smoking alternative that best provides it.

Please don't feel conflicted about this. You're doing the right thing. If you made the information public, the only people who would try it would be the ones who shouldn't.

You have made huge accomplishments for the vaping world. It may be that there's no safe way for amateurs to make WTA at home. Or maybe there is, in which case my money is on you to wake up in the middle of some night yelling "That's it!"

In the meantime we can hope that some e-liquid manufacturer (DeKang? EastMall? Might Totally Wicked be barely large enough to try this?) will come to you with a proposal to work out an economical industrial implementation of your process. From what we've seen in this thread it is high odds they'd take the vaping world by storm, including opening a door to many more ex-smokers.

 

[Vaporer]

a2d,
They pretty well covered the american type. Discreet will send you a free mixed sample. I emailed them after reading something here and got my first there. The full flavor or regular isn't very good, but the rest are. I like the blue and green packs. Ones ice and the other is emerald. Mint and wintergreen. The peach and strawberry are good too. Camel Frost I think is ok, kinda weak, but may be good for a first time tryer. I still keep it around. I like the flavor and it does work, just not as well for me, but may hit the spot for you. The Camel Mellow? tan tin .....I dont care for that flavor at all.
Flavor is very subjective. Odd most people don't like the regular flavors of those 2 though.

If you want a wider choice The Northerner ships Swedish from the US if it has an American flag by the product. The Northerner, Mini Portion Snus

I like the Thunder Frosted Mini and General Mini Mint. Very satisfying. Its abt $5 to ship so at $4 a "tin" you can get 4 diff kinds in 3 days for abt $20. They even list nic content and what he flavor is. Informative if nothing else.

I order from them, getsnus.com and get the Stonewall from the manufacturer (free shipping). Getsnus carries Discreet also I believe. So if and once you find some things you like you can get a variaty sent cheap right to your door.

DVap, I understand your point. When its not just a simple thing to do with safe materials, I wouldn't want to tell people how and have someone hurt from it. At least we know what it is and there is a source for it in snus. After trying both, if snus doesnt help, WTA isn't what they are missing, considering eliquid is leaving them hanging just partially or mostly satisfied. Granted WTA is more like an analog, snus does help and gets better with time of use. Your body must be adjusting to its new source.

 

[Vaporer]

Hmmmm.....Image of DVap waking up in the middle of the night with a new bride yelling thats it !
OMG! 8-o

 

[kinabaloo]

"Bob is exactly right about the standard approaches folks take to try to extract something vapable and efficacious from tobacco. They don't work, they won't work, and they can't work."

Nonsense! As I predicted, the guns are out for the simple tobacco soak.

You'll notice no logic in denying the usefulness and relative safety of tbacco soak e-liquid while supporting snus. There's no logic in that, just bs.

Snus tobacco might be 'safer', but it's still whole, whereas at least DIY e-liquid is an extraction. Simple soak is much closer to a 'perfect' WTA than some would have you believe; especially as not all alkaloids are necessarily 'good'.

The great majority of the harm from smoking is from combustion.

I could see where this was going and was right on target. Push a little and out comes such a ridiculous statement. Watch out for the disinfo ...

 

[exogenesis]

Umm, while DVap's re-diluted purified WTA+ concentrate is competely different
animal from straight tobacco soaks (water/ethanol/whatever),
it's evident that soaking gives you something - but useably vapable?, too weak?

Since snus work so well for some, it's obvious that a 'saliva soak' works
pretty well, at least in direct contact with the gum/soft tissues, i.e.
a useable release rate.


Talking of which I just recieved a 'top 10 try-out pack' from Northerner,

The Northerner, Try Out Boxes
quite a hidden cost in there, stated cost was 200 swedish krona = $28-60,
actual cost $31 + $12 tax + $11-50 tobacco tax + $11-50 delivery = total $66 (!).
They arrived extremely quickly though

And since some of the best snus experts are in this thread I though I'd ask

1 are the (non-'whites') supposed to be so wet,
- looks like someone's already chewed them!
2 Do the dark wet ones taste as disgusting as they smell & look
- (haven't worked up the courage yet)
3 what the hell does 'stark' mean, and 'purified' ?
but mainly:
4 which one should I try first, given I'm a lapsed vaper, 20+ cigs/day again:

(thumbnail)


left to right,top to bottom (dark & soggy & gross smelling, to pale & dry & nice smelling):
General, Thunder extra stark frosted, Nick & Johnny strong, Skruf stark, Grow,
Ettan original, Roda Lacket, Gotenborgs Rape, Catch (eucalyptus), Oomph 6mg (citrus menthol)

(don't think all of those have the US flag icon ?)

Mind you, the room smells guite nice now

 

[a2dcovert]

Wow, thanks to all for the info. Sorry for turning this into a snus thread. So, I officially return this thread back to it's original subject - Nicotine.

Lots of good helpful information.

 

[olderthandirt]

Hey exogenesis

"...
And since some of the best snus experts are in this thread I though I'd ask

1 are the (non-'whites') supposed to be so wet,
- looks like someone's already chewed them!

Yes! The portions have been pre-moistened with water or a water/nicotine solution during manufacture.

2 Do the dark wet ones taste as disgusting as they smell & look
- (haven't worked up the courage yet)

NEVER ever smell the can! The smell and the taste are two entirely different thangs.

3 what the hell does 'stark' mean, and 'purified' ?
but mainly:

Stark, Sterk = Strong nicotine. Purified = The portions and the snus inside are dry.

4 which one should I try first, given I'm a lapsed vaper, 20+ cigs/day again:

IMO start with the Ettan Original, it has the mildest tobacco flavor and salt content.

General, Thunder extra stark frosted, Nick & Johnny strong, Skruf stark, Grow,
Ettan original, Roda Lacket, Gotenborgs Rape, Catch (eucalyptus), Oomph 6mg (citrus menthol)"

Make sure you've eaten something before you try any of the ones labeled as Sterk or Ekstra Sterk

 

[a2dcovert]

What happened to all your stats OTD. Looks like you have reached ECF Vet. status but all your profile info is gone.

 

[exogenesis]

Great, thanks for that OTD

Will try that one first then, after a meal.
(mea also sorry for temporary conversion to snus thread )

 

[TropicalBob]

As much as I like Ettan for its natural tobacco flavor, I'd start with the Wise Citrus&Menthol. It's half the nicotine strength of Ettan and far more pleasant tasting.

Some on top row indeed smell -- and taste -- disgusting. Some people swear they come to love these. As for me, my nose is located where it is so I can smell when something is putrid and shouldn't be placed in my mouth. These snus fit that category. They can cause a gag response.

Wet snus reminds me of reusing a snus someone else has used. I use dry ones 95% of the time.

Stark might be too strong for you. I no longer think "more is better". I got my 17mg Oden's Kanal yesterday and it's disgusting and sickening at the same time. I could tolerate it no more than about 15 minutes. After that, I would have been drunk on nicotine -- a most unpleasant feeling.

BTW, Kin: That silly "the guns are coming out" rant was uncalled for. Way below the standards I've come to expect from you. DVap knows his stuff. Do you?

 

[Stubby]

Great, thanks for that OTD

Will try that one first then, after a meal.
(mea also sorry for temporary conversion to snus thread )

Come on over to the smokeless tobacco sub-forum and we can fill you in on all the goodies about snus.

Edit. I see TB has joined the party as I typed. So it goes. Still, there's always a big party going on down a notch.

 

[DVap]

"Bob is exactly right about the standard approaches folks take to try to extract something vapable and efficacious from tobacco. They don't work, they won't work, and they can't work."

Nonsense! As I predicted, the guns are out for the simple tobacco soak.

You'll notice no logic in denying the usefulness and relative safety of tbacco soak e-liquid while supporting snus. There's no logic in that, just bs.

Snus tobacco might be 'safer', but it's still whole, whereas at least DIY e-liquid is an extraction. Simple soak is much closer to a 'perfect' WTA than some would have you believe; especially as not all alkaloids are necessarily 'good'.

The great majority of the harm from smoking is from combustion.

I could see where this was going and was right on target. Push a little and out comes such a ridiculous statement. Watch out for the disinfo ...

Kin... if you feel you must call nonsense and disinformation on me, I guess that's your right. I tend toward keeping a reign on my stronger opinions, but seeing as you've decided to rubbish dialogue in favor of calling nonsense and disinformation on me, I can play that game too... even if to no end greater than to demonstrate that having a go at someone who's generally on your side doesn't accomplish much.

What haven't you predicted? Have you ever met a speculation you didn't like? Toss enough studies against the wall, and some of it's going to turn out on target. Is there anything you didn't think of first? To be fair, about three quarters of the stuff you come up with is pretty useful, but the rest of it is god-awful tedious crap. Then again, I guess all of us manage to waste a bit of server space with some of the stuff we throw out there.

Snus is a self-contained packet of WTA. The extraction occurs directly from the packet to the mouth, and an efficacious dose can be gotten from a single packet.

"Bob is exactly right about the standard approaches folks take to try to extract something vapable and efficacious from tobacco. They don't work, they won't work, and they can't work."

These were my words that elicited your responses including, "nonsense", "ridiculous", and "disinformation". I espoused no particular opinion about the safety of tobacco soaks versus snus, to do so would require me to assume knowledge I don't possess, so I'll call strawman on your assertion that I'm having a go at the safety of tobacco soaks. I also tied the concepts of vapability and efficaciousness, and for a good reason. I believe that it's not too hard to get a vapable product from a tobacco soak, especially considering that taste is a personal thing. If someone does a soak, and likes how it vapes, then he's succeeded... if all he's after is taste.

I'm looking at 1 gram of tobacco to which 3 mL of PG and 2 mL ethanol was added, a half hour soak gave up 2 mL of brown liquid that even if we generously assume 100% extraction of 1.5% alkaloids, is at only 3 mg/mL in alkaloids and I pity the poor atty. Actually, the short soak can't come anywhere near an efficient extraction, a couple days would probably be more appropriate. Maybe then I'll have something approaching 3 mg/mL in black goo (with even more of the liquid absorbed tightly by the tobacco).

Soaks... They don't work, they won't work, and they can't work... AFAICT.

I suppose you could wet a gram of tobacco with 1/2 mL of PG and wrap it all in a PTB and stuff it in an atty (similar to Bob's snus soak). Outside that, it will take an extraction and a concentration.

Now then, kin. You are welcome to either continue with calling disinformation on me, or you might choose instead to get off of your ... and offer some practical advice to let folks know how to get an efficacious liquid from a standard tobacco soak thus demonstrating that it's me, not you, who is full of crap.

------
P.S. I think it works better when we're on the same side.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Ok, Ok, boys....we're all on the same side here. Clash Of The Titan's and all is typical where great minds come together, no? Vaporer, I'm sure you can back me up here, that in a room full of engineers everyone has their own solution to a common problem and sometimes it can be near impossible to get everyone on the same page. kin' and Dvap, for the benefit of all us monkeys, give each other a good slap and carry on. Me and my very best friend have done this alot over the years, then laugh while cleaning up the blood and nursing our wound. DVap, I see where you're at and I agree that if making a truly effective home WTA requires one to enter the danger zone, I sure wouldn't want my name attached to it. By far, a large majority of folks trying it out could find themselves needing more than a smoke after the dust clears. In the future, after some time of stepping away from all the research, a simpler, safer solution may come to mind...or not. We all have moments of "wow, it was right there all along"...hard tellin', but let it go for now. You've a job well done . kin, you're on the track I want on, but at this point it's hard to argue the snus soak theory. The overwelming factor in WTA absorption of snus in the mouth is most likely enzymes in the saliva. A hard thing to duplicate, unless the particular enzymes are known and can be found in another source to aid in its extraction. The way I see it, this is more up your alley. You seem to be particularly keen in this area and I think you should keep pursuing that goal. I hope you read this and post your thoughts, good or bad . In the end, we really are all on the same side and in the same boat.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

a2d, you haven't derailed us. This thread has evolved from the beginning. What it's really all about is WTA and how to get it. After all, survival comes first, preference later. It hasn't turned into a snus thread, we're still in WTA exploration here, just another source. The ST threads hold the info we need to help us take that road, but the WTA satisfaction still belongs here as well. Just like IANAN and kin have posted much about natural alternatives as a means to replace WTA. They all have a place here. Snus recommendations, nic mg of portions, satisfaction with less vaping....they belong here as well as ST and we might find many things in ST that ought to be reposted here or vise versa. Right now, I'm enjoying new explorations into the ST world...the adventure. Whether I like a particular thing or not, it's still fun. Having said that, though, my goal is to some day be able to use and enjoy my PV in the same manner I used to smoke, nothing else. I hope that someday a WTA vaping liquid will be available and life will be simpler. The reason all this belongs here is because, as a group, we know what we want, as opposed someone living in the "modders" thread. So let's see where we go next .

 

[olderthandirt]

Speaking of which TV, have you received your snus order yet and if so...?