So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Speaking of which TV, have you received your snus order yet and if so...?

Funny you'd ask, OTD. I'm currently enjoying a Thunder Frosted mini. I chickened out on the order at the last minute, due to my previous experience with the domestic variety, and was afraid Swedish might be overpowering on taste or I might have to spit (a definite no-go). Also , I didn't know how big a regular portion was or how "discreet" it would be (tobacco Free not smoke free workplace), so I only ordered the Frosted mini's and a free can of General White. Haven't tried the General, yet, give me an your or so. I see, now, the Swedish snus is a world apart from the domestic and very enjoyable . I've already looked into Northerner for my next order, so yeah, it's going well.....'jya hear that, a2d .

By the Way, OTD, where's the avatar? you're not looking yourself, today. I like the new signature, though.

 

[olderthandirt]

...I'm currently enjoying a Thunder Frosted mini. ...

Now to find out if the snus works as well for you as it has for others!

Enjoy

 

[exogenesis]

TB, thanks for the info, I think I was tending in that direction,
was thinking work up to the 'mans' snus via the more pleasant ones,
rather then getting disgusted & walking away from it,
but having got these 'WTA packets' I've probably got to go thru the
same horror & joy experience with snus you've obviously been thru

Sorry about not coming over to the 'snus side' Stubby,
probably see you on the shortly....I hope.

DVap, I can see why your original sig. said 'Never annoy a chemist' ,
gotta say I feel 40/60, cos if a simple soak can somehow get a higher
alkaloid content than you've seen (a physical process? - e.g. less liquid per tobacco, heat,
microwave, much longer soak, sonicate, squeeze it - ?),
and a substantial degunk can be done, (filter, acidify, alkalize, a precipitate?, settle/filter?)
maybe there's still a chance...

But on the whole it's never going to even approach your WTA+, in terms of
cleanliness / vapability / strength.
However, did I get the feeling you were trying water/ether rather than MeCl2 extraction?,
if so does it work anywhere near as well (or at all usably)?
Can people get ether easily, is it 'safer' ?

TV : never come between a practical chemist & a knowledge-researcher
don't think saliva actually contain any enzymes except amylase (carbohydrate attacking enzyme),
not sure how that would help alkaloid extraction/migration, but you never know....

DVap just described snus as pre-packaged WTA, is implication is that the snus pre-process
does pre-extract the alkaloids c.f. loose tobacco, so they're more quickly available,
or it it just the snus usage time-frame (in the mouth) is vastly longer
and more alkaloid conducive (somehow) ?

 

[a2dcovert]

a2d, you haven't derailed us. This thread has evolved from the beginning. What it's really all about is WTA and how to get it. After all, survival comes first, preference later. It hasn't turned into a snus thread, we're still in WTA exploration here, just another source. The ST threads hold the info we need to help us take that road, but the WTA satisfaction still belongs here as well. Just like IANAN and kin have posted much about natural alternatives as a means to replace WTA. They all have a place here. Snus recommendations, nic mg of portions, satisfaction with less vaping....they belong here as well as ST and we might find many things in ST that ought to be reposted here or vise versa. Right now, I'm enjoying new explorations into the ST world...the adventure. Whether I like a particular thing or not, it's still fun. Having said that, though, my goal is to some day be able to use and enjoy my PV in the same manner I used to smoke, nothing else. I hope that someday a WTA vaping liquid will be available and life will be simpler. The reason all this belongs here is because, as a group, we know what we want, as opposed someone living in the "modders" thread. So let's see where we go next .

Good to hear TV, I just wanted to stay out of trouble. I'm with you in the goals you stated. I think I need to stay out of the modders forum. Just about to lose patience with some of those know-it-alls.

I don't know what's up with OTD. Not only is his avatar gone, his whole profile seems to deep sixed. So, what's up OTD?

 

[Vaporer]

Well.....guess its abt story time from Uncle Vaporer ...aka "lurkio" per exo. lol

I asked DVap many months ago in his original thread abt getting the flavor from RYO. Figured if they banned liquid, maybe the flavor would help me from going back and Nicotrol is an option for clean nic. Be nice to have a good strong Virgina flavor though.

He told me 70/20/10 PG/VG/ethanol I think. I tried it for 15 min and it had very little flavor. So I did a 24 hr test. It got darker and no more flavor. So...I got an apple and peach cigar. Should have a noticeable flavor. Nope. Then I tried a water soak, distilled.
It actually smelled like peach! To dilute after mixing. So I repeated this same test with each one. PG, VG, ethanol and distilled water. Tried dripping method after 15 min, 1hr....nothing. If it was there, my buds and senses werent gettin it. It took way more to soak it that you'd imagine too if you ever try this. Then if you force it back out of the tobacco not just drain it, here comes the color, crud to filter and you lose more liquid. Pre wetting the filter didnt help since I could still taste anything but a hint of flavor. With out nic in it, it wasnt mixable to more dilution. If the nic or WTA was there, it was to lame straight to be of much good. I read some other threads and they had came to the same conclusion except they felt the flavor was acceptable if not mixed. From Ettan , Nick & Jonny snus.

So, what to do. Ok, lets leave it a week. Wow, brown as crap. I cant see this as a good sign, but I tried it. Nada. The water batch had molded nicely though. I passed on it.
Now, if it is in there I can reduce the alcohol at less than 200* and maybe have something. It wasn't much and honestly I have no way of knowing what is in any of them. What solvent got what? Still reading all I can everywhere. did find out later that alkaloids aren't really water soluble unless converted to the salt form.

So...again, if something is in these at any time 15 (pretty clean looking) to a week ( flat dirty) how do I get it out? I havent a clue about reducing PG or VG, but I've never seen it mentioned and if I cant reduce it, its worthless.
I can rerun it with more solvent added, and tried but really didnt get any positive results I was willing to vape. I did try to vape the dark stuff and 2 attys died. From what I dont know, but one was new and it was clogged on disassembly. Bad thoughts here now. How can I drop the brown crap out? Don't know.

Thats as far as I can take it with my chemistry knowledge. More months of reading may help a little, but I wasnt seeing a viable answer to nic, flavor, what we now know as WTA, cig flavor....got squat to show for it, but I tried. I also ran the same tests with snus due to stronger flavor and nic levels. Slightly better, but nothing note worthy. A "liveable" flavor if liquid fell off the face of the earth.

WTA comes along and I'm happy as pie! Found snus & Stonewall in all the reading from researching the tests I was doing and it faired pretty well once I got used to it. Didnt take to long once I realized it slowed my vaping/craving a lot.

I was hoping like hell for a simple extraction method we could use. A lot of things appear to evaporate well, but leave stuff behind in traces. Not worth the risk. It might be worse than analogs for all I know.

Disappointed, sure I am......mad......nope. He tried and just because he can do it and I cant, well.... he's a certified professional chemist and I'm not. If I were going to put it out it better be darn well fool proof. Just because I post it right doesnt mean people will follow it, have the skills or won't try to substitute things or steps. Wouldn't want it on my conscience or in a courtroom.

As far as your theory on snus & enzymes....brilliant my boy! Added with a little off pH saliva and I think you nailed it TV!

Ok, story time is over.

Go to bed.

 

[Stubby]

DVap just described snus as pre-packaged WTA, is implication is that the snus pre-process
does pre-extract the alkaloids c.f. loose tobacco, so they're more quickly available,
or it it just the snus usage time-frame (in the mouth) is vastly longer
and more alkaloid conducive (somehow) ?

The PH of snus is purposely manipulated to about 8.5 for most swedish snus. It's made to be absorbed via the mucus membrane and the high PH freebases the nicotine. It still takes some time as absorption via mucus membrane is a good deal slower then via the lungs but still very effective, just slower.

There is no pre-extract of alkaloids but the end result is the same.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

TV : never come between a practical chemist & a knowledge-researcher

I don't know any better....usually didn't work in bars, either...

As I can recall.....many fuzzy days have gone by....I researched this years back for other purposes and seems there were a hand full of enzymes in the saliva that started the digestion process. I really don't know, though. Just throwing it out there.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Disappointed, sure I am......mad......nope. He tried and just because he can do it and I cant, well.... he's a certified professional chemist and I'm not. If I were going to put it out it better be darn well fool proof. Just because I post it right doesnt mean people will follow it, have the skills or won't try to substitute things or steps. Wouldn't want it on my conscience or in a courtroom..

I think that is what I was trying to say, thanks .

As far as your theory on snus & enzymes....brilliant my boy! Added with a little off pH saliva and I think you nailed it TV!

Shucks, twernt nuthin' . 'nite, uncle Vaporer .

 

[DVap]

However, did I get the feeling you were trying water/ether...

Ether? God no. Ether is a leading cause of orbital .... labs. No matter what one might be doing with ether, the cops/coroner just assume it was .... cooking.

Haven't touched the stuff in years since using it for organochlorine herbicide extractions, could go many more years without touching the stuff and that's fine with me.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Exo has this posted in another thread and I thought all might be interested in a look:

PillBox at TW was asking for (UK) volunteers to participate in a new study,
unsure of what the status is:
Preparation For a Smoking Cessation Trial In association With "UEL"

Doesn't really give much detail except that they're using eliquid to study smoking cessation. Wonder how long they'll track participants...1 month...3...6...1 year? I'd assume there's no other nicotine products allowed.

 

[Vaporer]

TV, had to do some back reading. Son had a ballgame tonight and I threw that post in and left.
How'd the Thunder Frosted do? It's one if not my favorite. I can keep a portion in for a couple hrs and really reduce my cravings and vaping.
Did you have any similar or good results from it? Hope so.
My latest order included General mini( forgot to make sure it was mint) A drop of Loranns peppermint or wintergreen, orange on a portion will fix the 5 roll till I finish them. Also got one container of Nick & Johnny, Goetenburg Rape, and Ettan.
Havent gotten to all them yet, but they seem to be popular. N & J was in the snus soak section for a decent flavor too for vaping. I'm sure I'll have to test it and the Ettan for a flavor soak. I have a good supply of flavorless high nic stocked. The snus I tried in the previous posting was Camel.....yawn......all I had at the time.

To stay on topic, all the Swedish stuff seems to give a decent WTA representation so far.
The Rape isnt a flavor I'd order again, it does get tolerable with usage though.

 

[kinabaloo]

As much as I like Ettan for its natural tobacco flavor, I'd start with the Wise Citrus&Menthol. It's half the nicotine strength of Ettan and far more pleasant tasting.

Some on top row indeed smell -- and taste -- disgusting. Some people swear they come to love these. As for me, my nose is located where it is so I can smell when something is putrid and shouldn't be placed in my mouth. These snus fit that category. They can cause a gag response.

Wet snus reminds me of reusing a snus someone else has used. I use dry ones 95% of the time.

Stark might be too strong for you. I no longer think "more is better". I got my 17mg Oden's Kanal yesterday and it's disgusting and sickening at the same time. I could tolerate it no more than about 15 minutes. After that, I would have been drunk on nicotine -- a most unpleasant feeling.

BTW, Kin: That silly "the guns are coming out" rant was uncalled for. Way below the standards I've come to expect from you. DVap knows his stuff. Do you?

The 'no way, no how, never' statement was and is ridiculous. This after just two days and no figures (for a standard VG / alcohol soak for 12 hours).

For some reason, it was the attempt to shoot down kill off the idea of using tobacco for e-liquid. That's an accurate description. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[olderthandirt]

...
Doesn't really give much detail except that they're using eliquid to study smoking cessation. Wonder how long they'll track participants...1 month...3...6...1 year? I'd assume there's no other nicotine products allowed.

Just read the thread over there. Interesting for sure. Still in the design stage, the initial intent is a 12 week trial with 3 groups, cold turky, "recognized" NRT's and PV's.

I put in my 2 bits for em consider or not.

TV, how are you enjoying the snus?

...My latest order included General mini( forgot to make sure it was mint) A drop of Loranns peppermint or wintergreen, orange on a portion will fix the 5 roll till I finish them. Also got one container of Nick & Johnny, Goetenburg Rape, and Ettan.
Havent gotten to all them yet, but they seem to be popular. N & J was in the snus soak section for a decent flavor too for vaping. I'm sure I'll have to test it and the Ettan for a flavor soak...
The Rape isnt a flavor I'd order again, it does get tolerable with usage though.

Agree on the Rape Vaporer, yeecchhh!
Which N&J did you get? I really like the N&J Black. It's the strongest per portion snus that I've found that I enjoy the taste of. Ettan is a great all day snus, mild flavor.

...
I don't know what's up with OTD. Not only is his avatar gone, his whole profile seems to deep sixed. So, what's up OTD?

Nothing more than a couple of days of hellish mood swings in the waaay down direction. Life events are conspiring against what little self esteem I have left.

Prompts the desire for the return to the womb.
Or a serious session with the 48mg.

Mommmmyyyyyyyy .........

 

[DVap]

The 'no way, no how, never' statement was and is ridiculous. This after just two days and no figures (for a standard VG / alcohol soak for 12 hours).

For some reason, it was the attempt to shoot down kill off the idea of using tobacco for e-liquid. That's an accurate description. Draw your own conclusions.

As long as that reason doesn't involve me somehow at the controls of a black helicopter or some nefarious motive, then it is an accurate description. Ridiculous? Been called worse, I call 'em according to observation. Hopefully we'll call off the pissing match and dissect soaks scientifically to try to fill the space between what we'd like to do with them and what we're currently able to do with them.

If standard soaks don't work (or in my more critical view, can't work), the solution then has to be a non-standard soak... simply something we've all not thought of yet.

The factors that line up against standard soaks are:

- Dilution

If we consider a cigarette to be a "dose" of WTA (actually 10 doses due to the lousy delivery efficiency of burning tobacco), how can we get those doses into dose sized liquid quantities? We might have 15 mg of nicotine and tobacco alkaloids in 1 gram of tobacco, and if we can get it all out, and we want 30 mg/mL, our solvent volume is defined rigidly at 0.5 mL. It's difficult to envision a soak that doesn't involve some kind of concentration step.

- Matrix

Time is the friend of a nicotine/alkaloid extraction, but it is also the friend of atty-killing gunk.

I'll just say it: The box everyone seems to be stuck in is simply this: The solvents such as water, PG, VG, alcohol... they're all polar.

Think non-standard, think non-polar.

 

[olderthandirt]

...Hopefully we'll call off the pissing match and dissect soaks scientifically to try to fill the space between what we'd like to do with them and what we're currently able to do with them.

Amen to that! PLEASE!

If standard soaks don't work (or in my more critical view, can't work), the solution then has to be a non-standard soak... simply something we've all not thought of yet.

The factors that line up against standard soaks are:

- Dilution

If we consider a cigarette to be a "dose" of WTA (actually 10 doses due to the lousy delivery efficiency of burning tobacco), how can we get those doses into dose sized liquid quantities? We might have 15 mg of nicotine and tobacco alkaloids in 1 gram of tobacco, and if we can get it all out, and we want 30 mg/mL, our solvent volume is ...

Hmmm, ya know DVap that's sounding a lot like chemistry talk.

And it is Saturday...

Honeymoon, Saturday night, couch... 8-o

 

[DVap]

Hmmm, ya know DVap that's sounding a lot like chemistry talk.

And it is Saturday...

Honeymoon, Saturday night, couch... 8-o

Relax, I know what I'm doing!

[he has no idea what he's doing]

 

[olderthandirt]

...
[he has no idea what he's doing]

And that ^, can be the fun part of the whole marriage thing!

Once again, congratulations and all the best to you and yours DVap!

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

How'd the Thunder Frosted do? It's one if not my favorite. I can keep a portion in for a couple hrs and really reduce my cravings and vaping.
Did you have any similar or good results from it? Hope so.

The Thunder Frosted mini seem to be a success, so far. Taste isn't potent,.. pleasant, actually, and mild. I experience a bit of a burning sensation when I first put it in, but that would be my only "complaint". Definitely on the reorder list. And vaping is reduced quite a bit. Over the last 24 hrs. I've felt much freer and the obsession is more like a recreation .

Agree on the Rape Vaporer, yeecchhh!
Which N&J did you get? I really like the N&J Black. It's the strongest per portion snus that I've found that I enjoy the taste of. Ettan is a great all day snus, mild flavor.

Noted the Rape, OTD, thanks for the warning. I don't really like the General White portions. The lemon/pepper seems a popular one, but doesn't set well with me, so far. I'll give it a go later on and see if I can adjust. I would like to get something more potent, though... Getsnus sent me a "menu" with my order, so hopefully that'll help..Looks like the N&J Black isn't going to be to my liking, either.

Nothing more than a couple of days of hellish mood swings in the waaay down direction. Life events are conspiring against what little self esteem I have left.

Prompts the desire for the return to the womb.
Or a serious session with the 48mg.

Mommmmyyyyyyyy .........

Self esteem was replaced by extreme humility in my case . Self worth...? I have many days I just can't seem to find any, but if nothing else, my wife still needs me as well as the kids, grandkids, and all those who continued to love me despite my behavior. Glad to see your "mug" back up, Friend. Just hasn't been the same, lately .

If standard soaks don't work (or in my more critical view, can't work), the solution then has to be a non-standard soak... simply something we've all not thought of yet.
Think non-standard, think non-polar.

Being a non-standard, non-polar kind of guy, this is how I feel, too. We know it's in there . It may be that it's only available in usable amounts through processes similar to the "cauldron/broomstick" DVap method, but if a snus can deliver......there's another key to the lock, somewhere around here .

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

And that ^, can be the fun part of the whole marriage thing!

Once again, congratulations and all the best to you and yours DVap!

Ditto, go live on love for a while...........Got a few drops of WTA left for a toast....Cheers!!

 

[olderthandirt]

...experience a bit of a burning sensation when I first put it in,...
And vaping is reduced quite a bit. Over the last 24 hrs. I've felt much freer and the obsession is more like a recreation .

...I don't really like the General White portions. The lemon/pepper seems a popular one, but doesn't set well with me, so far. ...
I would like to get something more potent, though...
Looks like the N&J Black isn't going to be to my liking, either.
...

Those Thunder Mini's are supposed to be 8mg portions, good trick for a mini. The burning is probably the salt and true to what others told me, you won't notice that in due course.

From what I've read as well as personally tried, General is a good across the board representation of "traditional" Swedish snus flavor.

As for something stronger, well, get the attention of isande or Stubby or bardic druid, to name just a few, and they'll probably be able to suggest some others to try out based on what you've already tried.