So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[olderthandirt]

Oh oh, the teachers watching. I told you guys you're gonna get in trouble screwing around like that.

Jeez ha, wake up OTD, and quit throwing spit balls.

Allriiiiiigghhht
m wake now
little

What? He's watchin'?

Hoorah! 'Nuther day with more fun ahead!

 

[olderthandirt]

I found a quite good document yesterday that profiles nearly all of the smokeless alternatives. It was produced in 2008 and includes pages on Ruyan's e-cig and those from njoy and Crown7, so it's as recent as we can expect. Everything we discuss here is in there -- including Stonewall, Camel and Marlboro snus, Swedish snus, and much more. This takes hours to read, but you'll find lots of "how much nicotine" data and lots of "why the FDA said no" information. Great material.

I copied it and moved it my web server. It's a PDF.

What I was searching for is the answer to "how much nicotine did Accord, Premier, Eclipse and Heatbar" deliver. Those used a cylinder of tobacco moistened with propylene glycol and then heated from the tip to produce vapor to inhale. RJR spent almost $500-million developing one failure.

The quick answer is some nicotine, but not as much as burning a cigarette. Good stuff. I figure the only people who would care about this are reading this thread, so I'll link from here:

http://www.karr-tv.com/PREPs.pdf

What did I say 'bout another day of fun?

T Bob comes along with a 109 page assignment!

'Spect I need to get crackin

Good morning Sunset. Take a stroll through the Smokeless Tobacco forum if you haven't already. Good stuff in there regarding snus and snuff.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Flashes of Lenwenski and clinton, a cigar and a blue dress.... Thanks dude like I WANTED that visual in my skull again..... GET IT OUT!!!

I'm glad someone else pointed that out. First, the "wet" one, then the "tampon" comes along from V...just didn't want to go there...

Yea, I let that slip without thinking. Sorry.

Purely "slipped", huh? My excuse for 7 kids .

Reminds me of the time I measured the growth of my thumb nail in miles per hour!

Bet my toe nails are faster.

Oh oh, the teachers watching. I told you guys you're gonna get in trouble screwing around like that.

Jeez ha, wake up OTD, and quit throwing spit balls.

Yes, some people got a little out of hand, I'd say .

I found a quite good document yesterday that profiles nearly all of the smokeless alternatives. It was produced in 2008 and includes pages on Ruyan's e-cig and those from Njoy and Crown7, so it's as recent as we can expect. Everything we discuss here is in there -- including Stonewall, Camel and Marlboro snus, Swedish snus, and much more. This takes hours to read, but you'll find lots of "how much nicotine" data and lots of "why the FDA said no" information. Great material.

I copied it and moved it my web server. It's a PDF.

What I was searching for is the answer to "how much nicotine did Accord, Premier, Eclipse and Heatbar" deliver. Those used a cylinder of tobacco moistened with propylene glycol and then heated from the tip to produce vapor to inhale. RJR spent almost $500-million developing one failure.

The quick answer is some nicotine, but not as much as burning a cigarette. Good stuff. I figure the only people who would care about this are reading this thread, so I'll link from here:

http://www.karr-tv.com/PREPs.pdf

Thanks for the leg work, TBob. Appears to be a must read, I just haven't read it yet.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

This is why I have to travel with a netbook... y'all think I'm not watching and ya's go all playground on the place! Iced in here with the missus in the NC mountains but we've got our liquid, our Chucks, and an exquisitely stocked bar in the front with 5 star dining in the back... so we can wait it out, somehow.

Now if there was just something to do...

And you, mister, does your wife know what you're doing? Chemists..sheesh! By the way, OTD and I are across the street. We'll be there in about a half hour to discuss our plan to send a2d to Cuba . If the wife doesn't mind and all. We weren't doing anything anyway .

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I'd also like to add, DVap, that when my wife and I got married we didn't get out of bed to eat for another 4 years .

 

[Treeburner1983]

[Short answer at end ]
Only read the first few pages of this thread, but just wanted to put in my $0.02. As a 15-year smoker, and a recovering opioid addict, and now studying to become a substance abuse counselor, I know a thing or two about addiction. I know the power of placebo, but I can also recognize physical and psychological withdrawal symptoms, and I can safely say I'm not experiencing nicotine withdrawal during my switch to vaping.

The bioavailability of vapor does seem to be much lower than that of smoking, but I haven't noticed any of the irritability, restlessness, moodyness or other symptoms I typically experience with nicotine withdrawal. In fact, I've been having some bizarre nicotine-induced dreams as of late, which suggests I've actually increased my nicotine intake, as this same thing occurred when using 21mg/day patches in addition to smoking around 5 cigarettes a day (since the patch wasn't satisfying my hand->mouth craving).

Before switching to vaping, I was rolling my own cigarettes using a good machine and high quality, "full flavor" tobacco (assuming 1.2mg strength although it's not labeled) and smoking around 20 a day. I'm now going through around 3ml a day of 24mg juice. This obviously doesn't add up: As noted previously the bioavailability is obviously lower.

As far as the other alkaloids contained in burnt tobacco smoke, I'm not sure if I'm experiencing withdrawal from them. If I am, it's slight, and is simply a decrease in motivation (mainly to play Everquest, an online game that's another addiction of mine). However, I think this may be due to the fact that I spend all day trolling these boards now trying to learn more about my new "hobby" (I hate to call it that, because I planned to just use vaping to replace smoking, but it's hard not to become infatuated with this stuff, there's just so much to learn!)

In short: I feel like I'm getting more nicotine than I need, as suggested by the nicotine-induced dreams and complete lack of any nicotine withdrawal symptoms.

~CTdl

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

[Short answer at end ]
As far as the other alkaloids contained in burnt tobacco smoke, I'm not sure if I'm experiencing withdrawal from them. If I am, it's slight, and is simply a decrease in motivation (mainly to play Everquest, an online game that's another addiction of mine). However, I think this may be due to the fact that I spend all day trolling these boards now trying to learn more about my new "hobby" (I hate to call it that, because I planned to just use vaping to replace smoking, but it's hard not to become infatuated with this stuff, there's just so much to learn!)

In short: I feel like I'm getting more nicotine than I need, as suggested by the nicotine-induced dreams and complete lack of any nicotine withdrawal symptoms.

~CTdl

Welcome to the thread CT . It is a very long one, isn't it? I'm a recovering alcoholic and former abuser of any mood altering drug I came across, so you're in good company, here . It's probably pretty painstaking, but see if you can get through the bulk of this thread as it deals with much more than nicotine. Oddly, I feel what you've described in the above statement mirrors my own experiences. The weird and vivid dreams seem to come from withdrawl of the alkaloids in tobacco, the psychoactive ones, not the nic. The symptoms you've described above are consistant with depression and, since you're a former abuser, could spirl out of your control and possibly land you back in rehab. This is serious stuff and, as we've found through the course of this thread, the nic isn't all some of us need. Also, to see a summary of this, click on DVap's avatar and read his blogs, especially the ones about "WTA". I believe you'll find them interesting and informative for you as a person as well as your chosen career. Come back and repost your input .

 

[olderthandirt]

Hi there CtDL

Oop, TV just said pretty much what I was going to throw out so I'll just say howdy and keep putting your $0.02 in the kitty!

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Hi there CtDL

Oop, TV just said pretty much what I was going to throw out so I'll just say howdy and keep putting your $0.02 in the kitty!

Sure sounds like somebody we could welcome into the crew, doesn't it .

 

[a2dcovert]

Hi CTdopeLove,

Welcome to the fold. You didn't say how long you have been off the cigs. If you are new to this then the fun is yet to come. I made it almost a month before I really started feeling that something was missing. Guess it was the honeymoon associated with thinking I had actually pulled this off. Look forward to hearing more.

 

[TropicalBob]

Sunset: The main man with Discreet is Tom O'Connell. Shoot him an email -- he won't mind and will answer you -- and ask any question you would like. I've worked with him for months now. He's reachable at tomttnb@yahoo.com

I'm getting the document printed in color tomorrow. It's really impressive and potentially of great use for those of us using alternative products.

 

[exogenesis]

Very nice condensed source of alternative-tobacco info TB.

Things & Devices in there I didn't even know existed, some are very strange.

Almost a 'history' of strange thing people will create (failed & still alive), given a market demand.

Certainly good info on the relative amount of TSNAs in different snus &
other things.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Well, poop, TB! This computer at work won't let me access the file.... I'll have to do it when I'm at home (almost never). Catscratch!!! Guess I might as well work, since I'm here anyway .

 

[olderthandirt]

Well TBob I just finished going through the whole pdf.
Interesting for sure.
Marlboro Nicotini cracked me up

 

[Caesarea]

Really informative, TB, enjoyed reading. Just wish that harm reduction was a more popular philosophy!

 

[Treeburner1983]

I will look through the rest of this thread over time, but wanted to respond to these two points now.

The weird and vivid dreams seem to come from withdrawl of the alkaloids in tobacco, the psychoactive ones, not the nic.

Strange, because I've never experienced this from going cold-turkey from nicotine, only from ingesting more than I usually do.

The symptoms you've described above are consistant with depression and, since you're a former abuser, could spirl out of your control and possibly land you back in rehab.

This I don't doubt, as this is one of the common symptoms of depression (losing interest in things which once gave you pleasure). However, other than this slight lack of motivation, I feel I've actually gotten a mood LIFT overall, so I think the stimulant effect (and accompanying euphoria, although slight) actually overpowers the depressant effect of the withdrawal from the other alkaloids, because overall I feel like I'm in a better mood and happier after having switched. Also, having never been to rehab, I don't expect to end up back there, especially since I'm not having any desires for opioids or other drugs (except my trusty mj, which is one thing that helped me get off the other stuff). On a side note, smoking less mj since I started vaping, another benefit!

~CTdl

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I will look through the rest of this thread over time, but wanted to respond to these two points now.



Strange, because I've never experienced this from going cold-turkey from nicotine, only from ingesting more than I usually do.



This I don't doubt, as this is one of the common symptoms of depression (losing interest in things which once gave you pleasure). However, other than this slight lack of motivation, I feel I've actually gotten a mood LIFT overall, so I think the stimulant effect (and accompanying euphoria, although slight) actually overpowers the depressant effect of the withdrawal from the other alkaloids, because overall I feel like I'm in a better mood and happier after having switched. Also, having never been to rehab, I don't expect to end up back there, especially since I'm not having any desires for opioids or other drugs (except my trusty mj, which is one thing that helped me get off the other stuff). On a side note, smoking less mj since I started vaping, another benefit!

~CTdl

Good to hear, CT. Not knowing how long you've been off the smokes I would like to add that I did well for about a month, then a nawing crave started that the nic couldn't touch ("something's missing" feeling). Being familiar with all the signs of depression, I was able to go down the list and check off most. The only thing that had changed was my lack of cigarettes. That led me to this thread and the rest is laid out here. A good possiblity that, through continued use of mj ( a good, natural mood enhancer), you'll be spared the fate shared by some. That is my hope. I would encourage a review of the contents of this thread, though, as case studies and analysis of addiction are prominant and may be an aid in future endevors. Good luck with all . And don't hesitate to post anything that you feel might be helpful to us. TV

 

[Vaporer]

Welcome CT.
TBob, tnx for the doc.
sunset, personally, I've found Swedish snus less in TSNA's than American from what I've read. What it comes down to is what will you use that has the best effect and the least harm. I've said before , flavor can be high on the importance factor list. If it tastes like crap, you wont want to use it If American is something you will use, it's still lesss than most NRT's and analogs.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Welcome CT.
TBob, tnx for the doc.
sunset, personally, I've found Swedish snus less in TSNA's than American from what I've read. What it comes down to is what will you use that has the best effect and the least harm. I've said before , flavor can be high on the importance factor list. If it tastes like crap, you wont want to use it If American is something you will use, it's still lesss than most NRT's and analogs.

I'm afraid you're right. The General White portions aren't doing it for me. Don't like the lemon/pepper taste. Getting used to it, but still not really caring for it. Same mg as the Thunder Frosted, which I like, but the satisfaction isn't there and the desire to vape is, although I already know if I take more than a few hits I'll feel oogey. A week ago, if I knew dog doodoo was safe and would satisfy me, I'da lit up a turd....not too sure, now .

 

[TropicalBob]

Some here can probably guess where I'm headed with my next experiment. I spent some time researching ring gauges of little cigars, Capri and Virginia Slims, etc., and believe snippets of Swisher Sweets and/or Capri can be soaked in PG or VG, inserted into an empty cart core and vaporized.

A few months ago, I found that mini snus portions worked well in my penstyle. They are like purified packaged tobacco in a teabag, and release glycerine vapor just as a polyfil core does. Now the question is: Will packaged tobacco in a cylindrical roll (a little cigar) perform the same way?

It doesn't take much research to find that little cigars contain higher nicotine levels than cigarettes, so I'm hoping enough transfers to the vapor so I get some mild nicotine lift. FYI: I smoked little cigars (Dean's) for years after taxes on cigs were jacked up. Loved them right up to the moment I quit smoking.

What inspired me was thinking of the Accord, Premier, Eclipse and Heatbar, all detailed in that document. Those devices use a kind of rolled cigarette moistened with PG, a heating element at the far end and a mouthpiece at the other. That's exactly what we have with an e-cig. We have a better, more reliable, tastier modern version of the Premier!

It was the kind of eureka I had when I discovered the 1940s tests on propylene glycol being an effective germicidal against bacteria. Researchers back then imagined using large machines to create a room filled with PG vapor. Today, we have a personal vaporizer. We have something they couldn't even dream of. (My fear is the FDA will use logic like this to ban e-cigs as medical devices).

Bottom line for me: I think my vaping is not only not harmful, but possibly good for my health.

Now let's see if we can convert a regular e-cig into a better smokeless cigarette than the half-billion dollar investments created by Big Tobacco. And if it works, it'll be sooooooo cheap!

If I succeed, you'll see a YouTube demonstration in a few days.