So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

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TWISTED VICTOR

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Thunder Frosted good?
Thunder Frosted is pretty potent, sounds good, though. The Thunder Frosted mini is 8mg nic, has a good, but gentle tobacco and spearmint flavor and the portion is tiny. I like 'em. I can use these all day and nobody knows ;). Just got some 02 from getsnus and I like it about as well. It's a full size portion, but they made it a little longer and skinnier for a more comfy fit in the cheek. Also less noticeable and it delivers mild tobacco flavor with a bit of a nutty undertone and 13 mg nic. A definite keeper. Haven't used the PV at all today, no desire to :).
 

TWISTED VICTOR

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Uh huh

Nice change up isn't gentleman
Man, it's freedom. Wasn't intentional, really. My order was sitting on the table when I got home last night, so this morning I popped the last mini with coffee, opened up the 02 and got busy around the house. Looks like the days of chasing a fix are over :). My daily duties at home are always hindered 'cause everytime I need a fix I stand there for a half hour hitting the PV and looking at what I need two hands and movement to accomplish :(. Yeah, the higher nic portions put me together quick and for a while :).
 

TWISTED VICTOR

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Ok, now I thoroughly confused. To me it's like the joke of who's on first and I don't know is on 2nd. I need a score card to know who is using what and all that. I hope to make an order this weekend.
a2d, these guy are right, this stuff will probably go far in getting you back on your mental feet. It may take a couple days of steady use to get it working in your system, but then you're cruisin' ;). As far as the shopping list, post how you feel about the flavors you've tried, do you like the stronger flavors like OTD or mild ones that lay there silently and do their magic? How well did the nic hit? The 8mg was ok by me, but I've found the 13mg really hits the spot. Post what you can and I'm sure you'll get some reliable responses. I'm new to this and can only offer a little :).
 

olderthandirt

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...do you like the stronger flavors like OTD or mild ones that lay there silently and do their magic? How well did the nic hit? The 8mg was ok by me, but I've found the 13mg really hits the spot. Post what you can and I'm sure you'll get some reliable responses. I'm new to this and can only offer a little :).

Well stronger is subjective ;)

a2d, FWIW my regular all day snus are both 8mg, regular portions.
General Wintergreen and Ettan original. I do use others occasionally but those 2 are reasonably mild in flavor and salt.
 

TWISTED VICTOR

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As I already posted, my taste tends toward the milder flavors. I don't know if it applies to the Thunder Frosted regular portions, since I haven't tried them, but the mini's perfect for me. Very mild flavor, but deliver the goods like a big dog. For more power in the nic punch the 02 is great, also. Mild tobacco taste without the salt, pepper, citrus flavor of the General White portions. Also, the 01 and 02 are a better fit than normal regular sized portions to me :).
 

a2dcovert

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It looks as though my tastes are similar to Vaporer. I'm not much into natural tobacco flavor. I don't like the salt taste too much.

I prefer Menthol, mint or something that resembles a real fruit.

At this point I think I prefer this direction. I liked the General mini Mint but the flavor didn't last too long. I'm also not sure if the 8mg in enough or not. I know one thing I have noticed is that if I vape with a portion in the throat hit is very good. I'm not sure what that means.
 
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TWISTED VICTOR

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It looks as though my tastes are similar to Vaporer. I'm not much into natural tobacco falvor. I don't like the salt taste too much.



At this point I think I prefer this direction. I liked the General mini Mint but the flavor didn't last too long. I'm also not sure if the 8mg in enough or not. I know one thing I have noticed is that if I vape with a portion in the throat hit is very good. I'm not sure what that means.
Ah, there's a good starter, V can probably give some good pointers ;). I'm luvin' this 13mg stuff, but after my current portion is spent, I think i'll drop back to 8mg for a while.....or the night. A really good fix, I'll say that :D. Kinda like to get a decent lung hit, but the 13mg treasure chest in my cheek says "NO".
 

frankie1

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I am going to have to agree with Vaporer....vaped snus tastes like snus. May as well snus and vape something that tastes better :( Today I got a really nasty taste from my snus soak....kinda like spoiled milk. I wonder if it molded?

Oh well, guess I am going to have to learn how to snus! I tried it once but it was kinda gross, but I may have no choice.
 

DVap

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I've burned through 30 grams of perfectly good NAS 100% organic tobacco on three different WTA work ups.. getting closer to something I could describe how to do but I really futzed up the last one. Ah well, back to it on Monday.. got the grandkid for the weekend starting tomorrow, and needless to say, all work stops when he's around.

More FYI, I've moved back away from the flammable solvent, and I'm back to the more toxic solvent.. it's simply a better solvent for this stuff. Have no illusions, this is not an easy procedure and it's not a cheap procedure. I'm finding it doubly hard for me to get the important points down in such a way as they can be followed by someone who might not grasp the finer points of what's happening.. We should probably forget any time frames I've mentioned... it will be ready when it's ready. I'm fighting a battle to balance simplicity with necessity... and necessity usually wins.
 

DVap

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DVap: While I anxiously await your results....enjoy that grandbaby instead!! We will happily wait. Merry Christmas!

Thanks :)

The thing I'm seeing is simply this: I do my full procedure, and things go "wrong". Well, not really wrong, but challenges arise in the cleanup, and I use my experience to deal with them as they happen. If someone without the chemistry background runs into one of these challenges, it can stop them cold.. so the challenge for me is to anticipate all these possible challenges in the procedure and bullet-proof the procedure so they won't happen.
 

TropicalBob

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Dvap is doing exactly the right thing with his caution. No one should release information for home users (just consider the intelligence level we see in some threads!) that might result in harm. If a foolproof method can be found and explained, fine and good.

If not ... just pop a snus in your mouth and settle back with vaping straight vegetable glycerine for the visuals and habit.

Many here (myself included) have found that a combination of nicotine sources works better than any single source besides tobacco cigarettes. If that's the route we must take to maintain our mental state and satisfy smoking addiction, then so be it.

I'd love to be able to homebrew WTA. I'd hate to die in the process.
 

DVap

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Bob, exactly.

I have to dissect the sucker step by step. The initial extraction of 10 grams of tobacco (theoretically there will be around 200 mg of alkaloids available) requires 150 mL of solvent to get back 110 mL of solvent, so immediately, we're losing a bit more than a quarter of the available alkaloids. I asked myself if using 200 mL of solvent would help. If I did this, I'd get back 160 mL of the 200 used, so I'd improve from losing 27% of the available alkaloids to losing 20% of the available alkaloids. Considering the high price of the solvent, this was not worth the additional solvent cost.

This is the sort of stuff I have to work out. In the end, it gave me a table for the extraction of 10 grams of well-ground NAS Organic tobacco:

50 mL solvent: 80% loss (40 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
100 mL solvent: 40% loss (120 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
150 mL solvent: 27% loss (146 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
200 mL solvent: 20% loss (160 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
250 mL solvent: 16% loss (168 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)

Considering the high solvent cost, I figured the point of diminishing returns was around 150 mL. The really surprising thing I found was that these numbers represent simply draining the solvent from the tobacco. Additional heroics like trying to squeeze out the tobacco to get more solvent only yield 5 - 6 mL extra, while forcing gunk out that makes life harder later on in the procedure.

I then had to rethink the table. What if I added 40 mL of solvent after all the solvent that could initially be gotten out was recovered. Since I know that 10 grams of the organic NAS will hold onto 40 mL of solvent, this additional solvent addition to the tobacco would allow me to recover half of what was left behind in the tobacco. Now the table looks like this:

50 mL + 40 mL solvent: 40% loss (120 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
100 mL + 40 mL solvent: 20% loss (160 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
150 mL + 40 mL solvent: 13% loss (174 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
200 mL + 40 mL solvent: 10% loss (180 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
250 mL + 40 mL solvent: 8% loss (194 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)

In this case, the extra volume is worth using, and with multiple solvent additions, a total of 190 mL of solvent achieves better recovery than a single addition at 250 mL. Multiple extractions generally do this for you, but you've gotta run the numbers and consider material costs at the same time to see if it's worth the effort or not.

Lately I've been dealing with the emulsion that forms during the preliminary cleanup of the initial tobacco extract.

When I'm working with this issue, I typically inspect it, and do any of a number of things to overcome the emulsion... each of which is tucked away in my "bag of tricks" gathered over many years.

When I consider what I'd tell someone else to do about it, I find that I can't, there's just too much experience that can't be simply described. So, I simply have to use a pretty rigorous "salting out" procedure, test that it works for the materials being used, and then describe how to do it.

This is why I've so far put 40 grams of NAS Organic tobacco to the task. Every time I come across something that could cause someone a problem, I have to come up with a sure-fire solution. So far, I'm on round 4, and every time I guess wrong about what action to take, I have to start over since I can't undo my dead-ends.

Even when I finally get it all worked out, more than a few will take one look at the procedure, and say, "I'll stick with the snus".
 

TWISTED VICTOR

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Dvap is doing exactly the right thing with his caution. No one should release information for home users (just consider the intelligence level we see in some threads!) that might result in harm. If a foolproof method can be found and explained, fine and good.

If not ... just pop a snus in your mouth and settle back with vaping straight vegetable glycerine for the visuals and habit.

Many here (myself included) have found that a combination of nicotine sources works better than any single source besides tobacco cigarettes. If that's the route we must take to maintain our mental state and satisfy smoking addiction, then so be it.

I'd love to be able to homebrew WTA. I'd hate to die in the process.
I agree with you, TB. I'd like to live with a modified version of my old smoking habit. Nothing else, keep it simple. But, I no longer feel my sanity hangs in the balance as I did before DVap's trial run on WTA. The bottom line for me is that now I understand what I need as well as where it can be found. I sorely need the psychoactive ingredients in cigarettes, not to smoke means an absurd downward spiral that can only be leveled with prescription drugs. I refuse, I'll start smoking and let nature take its course. The great thing is, now, I don't even need to do that. It may seem crazy to carry a doctor's bag of nicotine goodies everywhere I go, but it works. I can't emphasize that enough. DVap is working hard to set-up a program that's usable to anyone who can read and follow directions. Unfortunatly, in our current social climate, some are bound to attempt his proceedure who don't have the proper mentality to prepare a bowl of instant oatmeal. If DVap deems his simplified angle is too risky to post then so be it. I hope that won't be the case, but in all reality, I'd have to be honest with myself and ask "would I want to be in his shoes when Billy Bob substitutes kerosine as a solvent and the house goes up with the kids?" Not to say the danger is that great, I don't have a clue. I just know I get paid to clean up somebody's "oops" from time to time and most are downright stupid "oops'". I'll look forward to your recipe, DVap, but if it doesn't come, remember that we, as a group, repect the decisions you make :).
 

a2dcovert

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I agree with the benefits of diversity in getting our nic. I am still not fully a snus user yet. I hope to get settled into a couple of varieties that I like. I also have some Java Stonewalls to add into the mix.

Learned a valuable lesson today. Pure VG is not a good solvent for snus soak. I soaked 2 portins of General White Wintergreen snus. While I did get a lot of color I used too much VG, 4ml per portion. So the taste wasn't as strong as my previous attempt. Also something I didn't anticipate was that it's hard to filter vg, DUH. I ended up using a cloth cotton material. Even it was slow but it did a good job. My next trial will be probably be at least 25% PGA.

The mix was finished off by adding equal parts of commercial Virginia 24mg PG juice. The end product doea a good job of vaping and does have some of the tast of the snus. I get a lot of benefit from just the flavor alone. Maybe all in my head but anything that helps is progress.
 
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