Thank you, a2d. As a matter of fact, yes, I get to come to work.
That's a good thing to be able to say these days!
So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine
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That's a good thing to be able to say these days!
Thank you, a2d. As a matter of fact, yes, I get to come to work
Both getting older and going to work are both better than the alternative.
a2d: I like the new signature. Hope it redirects some folks.
I get sick of reading the clinical-trial literature on this stuff, because so many studies refer to "nicotine" and "tobacco"/"smoking" interchangeably when referring to use/dependency/cessation. As if they were the same thing.
Snus arrived....the day I had to start a new thyroid hormone regimen, and basically the instructions were to avoid changing any other chemical variables to see how this starts working (oh, and reduce my nicotine, to avoid cardiac jumpiness). Eek. If I really can't wait another week or two and need a cigarette, I'll grab the snus anyway. (My endo has an understandable blanket-hatred of all things tobacco, but my philosophy in three words is "What sucks less?") Fortunately, correcting the thyroid should make for a good antidepressant on its own...in theory.
(I was also concerned about the thiocyanate content of snus. Thiocyanate is a thyrotoxic component of tobacco smoke. Fortunately, I just found find one study that suggests it is exclusive to smoked tobacco. The study uses thiocyanate as a marker to distinguish smokers from smokeless tobacco users, since cotinine levels would not distinguish between the two. Now if only insurance companies could catch on to the difference and stop giving cotinine tests!)
Oh, and happy birthday Victor, and many healthy returns!
Yes. The realization that there are other mechanisms behind tobacco addiction is coming...very slowly...and only in some research circles. It takes years, even a decade, for new research findings to trickle down to the clinical practice level.
I get sick of reading the clinical-trial literature on this stuff, because so many studies refer to "nicotine" and "tobacco"/"smoking" interchangeably when referring to use/dependency/cessation. As if they were the same thing.
Snus arrived....the day I had to start a new thyroid hormone regimen, and basically the instructions were to avoid changing any other chemical variables to see how this starts working (oh, and reduce my nicotine, to avoid cardiac jumpiness). Eek. If I really can't wait another week or two and need a cigarette, I'll grab the snus anyway. (My endo has an understandable blanket-hatred of all things tobacco, but my philosophy in three words is "What sucks less?") Fortunately, correcting the thyroid should make for a good antidepressant on its own...in theory.
(I was also concerned about the thiocyanate content of snus. Thiocyanate is a thyrotoxic component of tobacco smoke. Fortunately, I just found find one study that suggests it is exclusive to smoked tobacco.
The study uses thiocyanate as a marker to distinguish smokers from smokeless tobacco users, since cotinine levels would not distinguish between the two. Now if only insurance companies could catch on to the difference and stop giving cotinine tests!)Oh, and happy birthday Victor, and many healthy returns!
I havent been feelin to good for a while. Not been on much. Have to stop in so I dont miss any new developments.
I can barely taste salt, pepper is a slight tingly sensation , not burning.....its weird.
I probably need to throw myself down the stairs again to move the brain tumor around.
I can eat anything the wife makes now........lol
I can barely taste salt, pepper is a slight tingly sensation , not burning.....its weird.
I probably need to throw myself down the stairs again to move the brain tumor around.
I can eat anything the wife makes now........lol
Madame, as usual you are a wealth of information.
Just saw one of Chantix's new commercials on TV. They are claiming that their success rate at 9 to 12 weeks is 44%. They also claim a 18% success rate with a sugar pill. I wish they would publish longer rate results. Their commercials no longer fit into a 30 sec time slot because of all the disclaimers and warnings take almost 30 sec.
Vaporer I hope you get over what ever has hold of you right now. Doesn't sound good.
Just saw one of Chantix's new commercials on TV. They are claiming that their success rate at 9 to 12 weeks is 44%. They also claim a 18% success rate with a sugar pill. I wish they would publish longer rate results. Their commercials no longer fit into a 30 sec time slot because of all the disclaimers and warnings take almost 30 sec.
Vaporer I hope you get over what ever has hold of you right now. Doesn't sound good.
Unfortunately, this is true and you have to really dig to come up with studies that left the cigarette unlit
.(I was also concerned about the thiocyanate content of snus. Thiocyanate is a thyrotoxic component of tobacco smoke. Fortunately, I just found find one study that suggests it is exclusive to smoked tobacco.
It was alway my understanding that thiocyanate was a by-product of tobacco combustion only. I wish I knew the sources, but I'm usually using the computer at work and unable to save or bookmark anything. Dang!!
Oh, and happy birthday Victor, and many healthy returns!
Thank you, MP
. A few more wrinkles today, but otherwise healthier than OTD's recently replaced teeth .
I don't know, V. Maybe you oughta see the doc. It may not be a passing thing and can be nipped in the budd early. I try not to be serious, but....I'm serious.
........
!!Happy Birthday TV. Sorry I missed that till now
I really dont understand how they can sincerely advertize Chantix in good faith as a product you should try then state all the side effects it has.
Most things have a few, headache, nausea......but Chantix's side effects arent minor problems. Be a good defense in court though.
I really dont understand how they can sincerely advertize Chantix in good faith as a product you should try then state all the side effects it has.
Most things have a few, headache, nausea......but Chantix's side effects arent minor problems. Be a good defense in court though.
I agree whole heartedly. Wow, with an alleged 18% success with a sugar pill maybe they should use that and stop hurting people with the drug.
Gotta love those disclaimers. They will do anything to keep their direct-to-consumer marketing!
(The birth control pill Yaz had to put out a whole new advertisement mid last year, just to explain why the FDA was smacking it down for essentially claiming in previous ads that it would eliminate PMS forever. I could think of many jokes here...)
On the 9-to-12 week thing: I agree, a2d. I believe the followups have been dismal for Chantix, not surprisingly...can't find them right now. (I have mixed views on Wellbutrin.) Clinical trials cost money, and the FDA doesn't require especially long studies even for "lifestyle change" drugs.
But-but-but... Changing a decades-long habit does not happen in three months. We know that, but the way trials are structured for drug approval doesn't give us the data we need on long-term success rates.
What smoking cessation research desperately needs* is a study equivalent to the STAR*D trials for antidepressants.
STAR*D was a massive multi-center, multi-stage, seven-year study following almost 3,000 participants with depression, publishing results in 2006. Lots of data produced, with pretty significant clinical implications.
The study was basically a series of sub-trials following an "algorithm" for treatment: If a patient didn't respond to the Step 1 medication (a standard first-line SSRI) they were moved into the next stage, and so on. It tested multiple classes of antidepressants and augmentation therapies.
So the algorithm for a multi-stage smoking cessation trial could look like:
Step 1 - Standard NRT --> if still smoking or smoking again by month 4 (or 6, etc.), move to:
Step 2 - Wellbutrin/Antidepressant-of-the-month --> "" "" "" move to:
Step 3 - PVs/"vaporized NRT" --> "" "" "" , move to:
Step 4 - Augmentation with safer tobacco-based alternatives
(Notes: Step 3 would include WTA liquid in an ideal world, at least as next-step augmentation.
Just as lithium and MAOIs are put in later stages of the STAR*D protocol because of their higher risk profile, I put the smoking cessation options with a perceived higher risk [by the FDA at least] in later stages--just my speculation on how it would pass muster.
For more on STAR*D, see this, this, or this. For a cynical take on the STAR*D's bias, which is probably what we'd see with any smoking cessation trial, see this brilliant psych's blog commentary.)
*If anyone knows of a multi-stage smoking cessation trial out there, I'd love to hear about it -- I've just never seen anything this methodical. I think it would show clearly that at least a significant number of smokers are not easily weaned on nicotine.
The "Prozac defense" has officially been successful for one guy at least...
Sorry to hear you aren't doing well, Vaporer. TV's right, getting it "triaged" by a call to the doctor is always a safe bet...Take care of yourself.
Interesting, and glad to hear it...
(And back on the convincing your wife front: sadly, my emotional persuasion skills are dead slow these days, along with most of the rest of me. I'm a softy, just allergic to meaningless drama, or as a boyfriend once said, "You're frighteningly rational for a woman." Never was sure how to take that...but it might explain why I'm not much help.
...Anyway, did you tell her yet?! Prime time for forgiveness is your birthday...)
Harvard now claiming Chantix is safer than thought:
InteliHealth:
A new study has found no clear increased risk of suicide or depression from a drug that helps people quit smoking. U.S. labels for varenicline (Chantix) warn that it could increase the risk of behavior changes. Depression, thoughts of suicide and suicide attempts are among the changes listed. The study used a database of 80,660 people.... The drug did not appear to significantly raise the risk of depression or suicide in more than 10,000 people who received it. Given the limits of the study, it appears Chantix is probably safer than we thought."
InteliHealth:
A new study has found no clear increased risk of suicide or depression from a drug that helps people quit smoking. U.S. labels for varenicline (Chantix) warn that it could increase the risk of behavior changes. Depression, thoughts of suicide and suicide attempts are among the changes listed. The study used a database of 80,660 people.... The drug did not appear to significantly raise the risk of depression or suicide in more than 10,000 people who received it. Given the limits of the study, it appears Chantix is probably safer than we thought."
Certainly look forward to your input and observations in the Smokeless Tobacco forum when you are able to use the snus Madame!
Was the loss of taste sudden or gradual V? Gradual = yer gettin' old, sudden = see a medico. Course you know that...
I imagine if your wife were to read through here you'd have no need to throw yourself down the stairs as she may just help you out!
... A few more wrinkles today, but otherwise healthier than OTD's recently replaced teeth
Hey now, keep in mind I've got MORE teeth now than before!
Madame, Totally Wicked is apparently preparing something along these lines. This post from the TW site forum gives an outline for a proposed cessation trial. I'm unaware of the status of this trial, didn't find an update.
I kinda think that including something with the additional addictive stuff in it would be essential early on. I'm firmly in the harm reduction camp at this point.
The first step with really figuring out what's going on would be isolating each component. then testing to see what effects each has and in combination. I'm thinking safer alternative to burning tobacco.. then later figuring out how to get unaddicted to it.
I tried a general mini mint yesterday and wow! Wasn't bad after you get past the initial burn and it did help a lot in terms of feeling not drugged and not in withdrawal. This morning I'm trying a general white. It had quite a burn too initially, but it's settled down now. This one tastes funky.
Madame: I would think staying out of withdrawal would be a good thing to keep that constant while seeing how the thyroid meds are doing. I would add the snus to the mix. My dilemma is that I'm still feeling too wired from vaping and from patches. From early results using the snus, it is looking like it will be the key to feeling normal (not drugged and not in withdrawal).
V: so can you pinpoint anything else that's changed. First thing I'd do would be to look up any prescription drugs I was taking. Did anything else change recently?
The first step with really figuring out what's going on would be isolating each component. then testing to see what effects each has and in combination. I'm thinking safer alternative to burning tobacco.. then later figuring out how to get unaddicted to it.
I tried a general mini mint yesterday and wow! Wasn't bad after you get past the initial burn and it did help a lot in terms of feeling not drugged and not in withdrawal. This morning I'm trying a general white. It had quite a burn too initially, but it's settled down now. This one tastes funky.
Madame: I would think staying out of withdrawal would be a good thing to keep that constant while seeing how the thyroid meds are doing. I would add the snus to the mix. My dilemma is that I'm still feeling too wired from vaping and from patches. From early results using the snus, it is looking like it will be the key to feeling normal (not drugged and not in withdrawal).
V: so can you pinpoint anything else that's changed. First thing I'd do would be to look up any prescription drugs I was taking. Did anything else change recently?
PVs are an excellent method to quit nicotine intake, IMO when you switch to a PV you instantly quit smoking, if you have the willpower and don't "slip up", for most people I know that wasn't an issue at all. No more bad smell on you, your car, and home. No more burnt clothes, carpet, etc. As far as the nicotine intake goes, it only makes sense to slowly cut it back which is easy, especially if you mix your own ejuice. Plus in the long run you can avoid the bans and Save a whole lot of money. Vaping gets real cheap when you buy gallons of pg and vg for about 20 bucks each and have a collection of flavors that rivals that of any candy making factory.
Greetings and welcome to ECF l3eNt!
Always nice to hear of folks successfully stopping smoking!
Plenty of folks can stop the use of inhaled combusted tobacco with the use of a PV.
There are more than enough that don't quite make it with that route that the following should be allowed consideration and merit.
Copied from a the blog entry http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/for...tml#comment788 by DVap
"On one of the threads, I divided smokers/vapers into four basic groups based on two theoretical criteria: 1) predisposition to nicotine addiction, and 2) predisposition to tobacco MAOI addiction.
Group 1: low predisposition to nicotine addiction, low predisposition to tobacco MAOI addiction.
Group 2: high predisposition to nicotine addiction, low predisposition to tobacco MAOI addiction.
Group 3: high predisposition to nicotine addiction, high predisposition to tobacco MAOI addiction.
Group 4: low predisposition to nicotine addiction, high predisposition to tobacco MAOI addiction.
Modeling on these these four groups:
We can expect group 1 to do fine vaping modest eliquid nicotine concentrations.
We can expect group 2 to do fine vaping higher eliquid nicotine concentrations.
We can expect group 3 to find vaping alone unsatisying. Supplementing vaping with some good strong Swedish snus, not that pale imitation Camel stuff, will likely calm these folks right down.
We can expect group 4 to find vaping alone unsatisfying. Supplementing vaping with some moderate strength Swedish snus, again not that pale imitation Camel stuff, should calm these folks right down."
I've tried a variety of atomizer/voltage/liquid combos since February of last year and I am firmly within Group 4.
And I'm smokeless!
I don't agree with this study for one good reason. One of the disclaimers now being disclosed is that anyone with depression symptoms shouldn't take Chantix. This was not stated earlier and is probably one reason why the issues with Chantix were happening. Apparently anyone with depression whether under treatment or not is at a high risk for issues Chantix. This group of potential high risk patients is a very large segment of the polulation. So, whether Chantix is directly or indirectly responsible makes no difference to me, it is still an unacceptable risk to a very large group of people.
I have heard many direct reports from users who experienced very pronounced side effects from taking Chantix. Chantix is not being fully represented for what it is, which is an anti-depressant. Doctors with no experience with this type of drug should not be prescribing it. Drug interaction is a potential danger with most drugs but Chantix can cause harm for patients with undiagnosed depression. How do you determine whether or not your patient has depression? Are the doctors even attempting to screen their patients before prescribing the drug? I think not. This drug represents an unacceptable risk in my mind.
Agree with you, a2d. Love how they qualify that summary with,
[Edited: text moved to the Chantix thread where it's more pertinent]
(ETA: Thanks for reposting that excellent summary, OTD, and for the link to TW's proposal -- very interesting. And welcome, bifff!)
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