So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[IANAN]

Btw, last month wrote this long article in the forums here about nicotine, MAOIs, absorption, etc., that predates DVap's extraction of WTA.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...bsorption-addictiveness-maois.html#post683086

Lots of links in there.

I think we hit similar hypothesis and hit a lot of the same research independently (As I never read your thread until just now)... Anyhow if I recall Tea's MOAI-s effect mostly MOA-B but tea has another useful mood enhancing alkaloid called caffeine ... The research I hit was MOA-A was what did it for the mice and the MOAI-Bs had no effect. The MOA-As in tobacco are beta-carbolines, and Passoin Flower, is an excellent source of those in the same alkaloid family no less. Beta-carbolines also have a potentiating interaction with other alkaloids.

Freebase Harman can be purchased over the Internet and these substances, from what I read, were never regulated despite their ability to cause hallucinations. I have no desire for hallucinations- it's why Caapi, Syrian Rue (It's a noxious weed and easy to come by), and Indian tobacco (This one was off for other effects also) were off my short list of supplements I'd be willing to try.

They have actually been studying MOAIs + Nicotine since 1996 and earlier.

From what I could tell they aren't sure if Rodalia contains MOAI... or if it just causes a rise in production of endogenous opioids. St. John's Wort - they aren't sure if it contains MOAIs either. It is why both of those were off my list as well. Ditto for Ginseng .

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

With the PV inhaling harder doesn't really result in a higher dose of nicotine. Dosing at high levels with the PV may never give the low stimulating effects... causing the mental desert feeling as they aren't getting the stimulant effect. Counting numbers of mouthfuls may be useful. I think the extra 5 minutes, and the suspected missing beta-carboline interaction, throws some people off so they may take more mouthfuls of a stronger fluid thus pushing the threshold over to sedation.... Using another stimulant (Caffeine perse- nothing wrong with a good cup of joe or strong tea) and fewer puffs at higher levels may be the ticket out of the mental desert feeling. A square or two of dark chocolate with a vape style with more mouthfuls when we are feeling stressed or anxious for the other end. Consuming both foodstuffs have other highly desirable health benefits.quote]


IANAN, I see your point and have tried said methods. Foodstuff is the only one that did make a noticeable difference. In regard to the high dosing level, in my experience you're right on the mark. In times of trouble when I've pulled out the big gun with armour piercing ammo my relief comes in the form of sedation, not satisfaction.
Just finished reading kin's report and am now convinced Pall Mall is the perfect drug. Carry on.

 

[Vaporer]

Twisted,
Your statement struck a chord with me. About sedation. Sedation is an end result in the case of addiction that substitute replaces what is lacking and preventing the normaling instance from occuring. Basically seen as the "escape route". I know cause I've been there. When nothing else works, "make it so I don't feel this way". If not subsided, panic soons sets in, accelerating the whole thing making it greatly worse feeding on itself. Hell of a place to be.

It can be mild to so severe, at some point, you don't care as long as it just goes away.............................

 

[RestrictedAccess]

I don't know - I'd like to think we are, but I'm starting to question it. I vaped for about three days, and each time I didn't feel the calming effect I usually got with a cigarette. Today I broke down and bought a pack of Marlboro's at work. Here's what gets me.

The night before I smoke a self-packed cigarette filled with pipe tobacco that my neighbor offered me. Between us, that's like offering a soda when one of us comes to visit. Pipe tobacco has less nicotine and more tar than regular cigarettes. I didn't really feel anything from the pipe tobacco cigarette, other than slight nausea from the harshness of the smoke.

Today when I smoked my first real cigarette in three days, I got that light headed feeling most of us experience when we smoke our first few cigarettes - before our tolerance developed. When I smoked, it felt as if a weight that I didn't even know existed had been lifted off of me. I just felt...better. Now, this could be because my lungs had gone three days without chemical filled smoke, or it could be from a lack of nicotine. I'm not 100% sure which it might be. However, if it's because of the lack of nicotine, that would explain why I never feel completely satisfied after I've vaped.

I'm beginning to wonder if, despite the 'high' labeling, perhaps there's practically no nicotine in my e-cig, not that I'm complaining. My ultimate goal is to get weaned off of nic. If I can get the feel of smoking without the nicotine, then that's awesome.

 

[RestrictedAccess]

I don't know - I'd like to think we are, but I'm starting to question it. I vaped for about three days, and each time I didn't feel the calming effect I usually got with a cigarette. Today I broke down and bought a pack of Marlboro's at work. Here's what gets me.

The night before I smoke a self-packed cigarette filled with pipe tobacco that my neighbor offered me. Between us, that's like offering a soda when one of us comes to visit. Pipe tobacco has less nicotine and more tar than regular cigarettes. I didn't really feel anything from the pipe tobacco cigarette, other than slight nausea from the harshness of the smoke.

Today when I smoked my first real cigarette in three days, I got that light headed feeling most of us experience when we smoke our first few cigarettes - before our tolerance developed. When I smoked, it felt as if a weight that I didn't even know existed had been lifted off of me. I just felt...better. Now, this could be because my lungs had gone three days without chemical filled smoke, or it could be from a lack of nicotine. I'm not 100% sure which it might be. However, if it's because of the lack of nicotine, that would explain why I never feel completely satisfied after I've vaped.

I'm beginning to wonder if, despite the 'high' labeling, perhaps there's practically no nicotine in my e-cig, not that I'm complaining. My ultimate goal is to get weaned off of nic. If I can get the feel of smoking without the nicotine, then that's awesome. I just wish I knew for sure, so that I don't have to worry about over dosing if I'm wrong.

 

[RestrictedAccess]

Oop, double post, sorry about that. Where's the delete and edit buttons on this board?

 

[Brewster 59]

I don't know - I'd like to think we are, but I'm starting to question it. I vaped for about three days, and each time I didn't feel the calming effect I usually got with a cigarette. Today I broke down and bought a pack of Marlboro's at work. Here's what gets me.

The night before I smoke a self-packed cigarette filled with pipe tobacco that my neighbor offered me. Between us, that's like offering a soda when one of us comes to visit. Pipe tobacco has less nicotine and more tar than regular cigarettes. I didn't really feel anything from the pipe tobacco cigarette, other than slight nausea from the harshness of the smoke.

Today when I smoked my first real cigarette in three days, I got that light headed feeling most of us experience when we smoke our first few cigarettes - before our tolerance developed. When I smoked, it felt as if a weight that I didn't even know existed had been lifted off of me. I just felt...better. Now, this could be because my lungs had gone three days without chemical filled smoke, or it could be from a lack of nicotine. I'm not 100% sure which it might be. However, if it's because of the lack of nicotine, that would explain why I never feel completely satisfied after I've vaped.

I'm beginning to wonder if, despite the 'high' labeling, perhaps there's practically no nicotine in my e-cig, not that I'm complaining. My ultimate goal is to get weaned off of nic. If I can get the feel of smoking without the nicotine, then that's awesome. I just wish I knew for sure, so that I don't have to worry about over dosing if I'm wrong.

Ithink we are getting some nic but no where close to an analog. Korea just aloowed ecigs and classified them as a low level nic delivery device. I personally still use my ecig but get my nic fix from snus.

 

[kinabaloo]

Restricted Access - The nicotine absorbed is lower than the label says as there is some lost in the atty. Then the absorption is slower. Then there is the fact that current e-liquid (and NRTs) contain only nicotine, and not the small amounts of other alkaloids that exist in tobacco.

For more depth, see: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...bsorption-addictiveness-maois.html#post683086

 

[olderthandirt]

The distinction between sedative and stimulant IANAN and Vaporer spotlight is yet another point I hadn't considered. But once mentioned, yeah, I understand and recognize those differing states. Probably always did, just not consciously. The roles that the different MAOI's play along with their variety of sources is catching my attention. I've a book somewhere around here, need to rummage and find.

The best current quick fix for my mental desert is chocolate. Specifically dark chocolate with chili's. Downside is that fix doesn't last very long. Sure tastes good though!

Distraction from newness, oh yeah Vaporer. Couple of those recent classified have been mine.

My perfect drug was always Rum. Preferably in hot chocolate. That would always get that sedated thing going on for sure. Sure is asking a lot of vaping alone to replace our various previous self-prescriptions of booze and Pall Malls!

 

[Vaporer]

OTD,
My favorite was Jim Beam neat and a smoke. Self medicate till you feel ok. I don't drink now at all.
I don't think any of us is constantly aware of the states, just a reflection back in time of deep thought considering it all. We know when they are there, just not identified usually for anything specific.
Guess overall its pretty simple. We are/were addicted and self medicate till we feel satisfied.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Doing my daily catch-up. Vaporer and OTD, with your keen insight you've done a good job of verbalizing what I've come to know about myself. The things you've posted will go far in helping all to look a little deeper into ourselves and what makes us tick, for better or worse, and also give a little relief to anyone that feels alone in the hollow room we've entered, just to set aside a stinky little burning stick. Admittedly, I've struggled to understand, with all the positive posts I've read about "more energy" and "feel great", why I seemed to be adrift in anxiety with less energy. Sure, my chest doesn't rattle anymore and I'm curious what kind of result I'll have on my annual pulmonary test for HAZMAT, but I've questioned if I've traded alot of quality of life for a little quantity. My hope is for both. Don't get me wrong, I've never lost a fight I stayed conscious for. But the thoughts and questions have been there since the newness of vaping wore off. You, along with Dvap, kin, IANAN, kurt, frankie1 and all who've contributed to this thread help yourselves when you contribute, but are also helping the rest of us immeasureably. I just wanted you to know. Thanks.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

By the way, my wise old friend, my problem fixer was Wild Turkey straight-up. Still puts my heart all aflutter if I smell it. Rum scares me. I hear people do crazy things after they've been in it, like mixing chocolate and chilli's, , arrrg, only a saltly ol' pirate as yerself seems fit to feast on. Shiver me timbers!!

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Vaporer, for today I'm hitting the 48mg/PG unflavored pretty much exclusively. The 36 has been fine, but today it isn't cuttin' the mustard. You know, just one a those days when my system seems to be revolting out of deprivation. I figure as it gets closer to bedtime I'll taper back to 36 and probably stay there tomorrow. I don't know if I'm excited, anxious, bored, happy.... Maybe it just bothered me to see dust gather on the bottle of 48.

 

[Vaporer]

Twisted, thank you. Not just for the words, but for sharing, as well as the others that have. Some ,maybe many, lurk but dont want to admit openly. Ok, thier choice.

I see it as in the begining of this and many other similar threads I was able to somethat keep up with the chemistry. Ok...thats gone now and trying to keep an understanding of whats going on if I can and will have to suffice. I'm not going to learn it to a workable level. But as I previously stated all input is good. It gives those with the knowledge facts to deal with that even though they may suffer the same thing , its not realized until read from anothers perspective. The relationship forms and becomes very evident.

To admits ones problems is not a weaknesses, but a tool of understanding that can be fought on a more level field. Especially with the help of others. Condemnation serves no purpose other than the "holier than thou" attitude. We may not all always agree, but that to me becomes a matter of perspective to each individual. Not a point to be dwelled on as it serves little purpose for the final outcome.

A big thanks to all the posters here !

 

[Vaporer]

I've had those days Twisted. My normal 18-24 just ain't gettin it and I'll top off with 36mg and eventually vape it all day. It's my way of trying to compensate for that something isnt right day that worse than the other less not something right days.
Slipping back to the Jim Beam would be bad for me....hard enough to stop once.

I personally think DVap is onto something including the others inputs too in the field.

Chocolate seems to come up a lot. If you read much on it it really jacks with the brain chemistry. One report said it triggerd the same chemicals as sex.
No wonder its so many peoples favorite flavor.

 

[olderthandirt]

Arrrr! shiver yer own timbers ye baft dastard! Eye'll show ye salty dog arrrr.

That's fun. stoopid, but fun.

I had to stop the drink as well Vaporer. Got to the point I could only drink at a bar because if there was a bottle in the house it was gone in a day. Headed for trouble for sure, grandfather's alcoholism for roadsigns I stopped. Like I said, there's a lot of pressure put on vaping when it's the only "med" I still have an occasional dark beer. Once in a long while...

I feel like I'm echoing you Twisted, today was a day for 48! Took a long walk through the neighborhood this afternoon and it was a focused effort to not stop at the local bar. Fortunately days like that don't come to often.

Look for IANAN to chime in about that chocolate and chili deal though. Not only tastes good but it does leave a mellow feeling once the burn subsides. Huge treat: French vanilla ice-cream with warm butterscotch and habenero sauce for topping. Ummm Good!

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Ah, Vaporer, you are a deep thinker as am I. Luckily, you find the words for us both. Sometimes I go exploring in my mind for hours and the trail goes on. Sometimes I get lost and can't find my way back. If I ever sound like a babbling fool in a post, that's probably where I went. I don't want to sidetrack this most important thread, but amid all the biochemistry ferver I can't help but to see a more simple underlining. And since simple is my specialty I felt compelled to address it. That being the good faith put forward by all and finally funnelled to the hands of Dvap. Starting with the first rambling OP it's come to a place of teaching, learning, council and most likely...RESOLUTION. Pretty darn neat. This thread has a unique fullness and I think anyone who jumps in at the end to read the answer will have deprived themselves of its most important parts. I'll go along quietly, now. I think I've found olderthandirt's cat, Igor. We'll lurk together.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Arrrr! shiver yer own timbers ye baft dastard! Eye'll show ye salty dog arrrr.

That's fun. stoopid, but fun.

I had to stop the drink as well Vaporer. Got to the point I could only drink at a bar because if there was a bottle in the house it was gone in a day. Headed for trouble for sure, grandfather's alcoholism for roadsigns I stopped. Like I said, there's a lot of pressure put on vaping when it's the only "med" I still have an occasional dark beer. Once in a long while...

I feel like I'm echoing you Twisted, today was a day for 48! Took a long walk through the neighborhood this afternoon and it was a focused effort to not stop at the local bar. Fortunately days like that don't come to often.

Look for IANAN to chime in about that chocolate and chili deal though. Not only tastes good but it does leave a mellow feeling once the burn subsides. Huge treat: French vanilla ice-cream with warm butterscotch and habenero sauce for topping. Ummm Good!

I still think you're not right.

 

[DVap]

I have initial feedback on WTA liquid from the person testing for me. Apparently he ignored my label that said "for laboratory use only".

His first impression at 28 mg/mL alkaloids (~25 mg/mL nicotine):

Satisfaction.

I'll find out if he wants to post his impressions himself, or whether he prefers to remain on the down-low. Either way, I'll try to have more for you all, either my summarizing his comments, or maybe he'll post them himself.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

, ,,, aaahhmmm. Well, (ahemmm) that's nice , Dvap. Bravo.