So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[IANAN]

Look for IANAN to chime in about that chocolate and chili deal though. Not only tastes good but it does leave a mellow feeling once the burn subsides. Huge treat: French vanilla ice-cream with warm butterscotch and habenero sauce for topping. Ummm Good!

Dark chocolate-- it has well documented positive health effects... including lowering your blood pressure and promoting a feeling of calm and well being;

Acute dark chocolate and cocoa ingestion and endothelial function: a randomized controlled crossover trial -- Faridi et al. 88 (1): 58 -- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition
JAMA -- Abstract: Effects of Low Habitual Cocoa Intake on Blood Pressure and Bioactive Nitric Oxide: A Randomized Controlled Trial, July 4, 2007, Taubert et al. 298 (1): 49
Dark Chocolate May Lower Blood Pressure

The process by which they lower blood pressure is a different process from the mood altering process. The blood pressure effect occurs within 30 minutes (or less) of consumption and last 6-8 hours. In addition it also lowers you chance for diabetes.


They contain Tetrahydro-beta-carbolines in addition to serotonin and tryptamine biogenic amines (Which as put earlier by someone else jack with your brain- I wouldn't put it that way). The Tetrahydro-beta-carbolines are in the beta-carboline alkaloid class and in fact are MOA inhibitors. It also has caffeine in it.

The darker the chocolate the more alkaloids are in it. If you consume the chocolate with milk (Or Ice Cream) the effects are diminished.

With chilis ... never heard of that one. Sounds kind of good though. never thought of chocolate covered jalapeños.

 

[Kurt]

DVap, now that's a positive piece of feedback!

I am particularly interested in some of the more physical, less psychological effects of the WTA. Case in point, the cholinergic effects. Not to get gross, but I am finding that unless I have an analog once a day or every other day, I get constipated. Others (igetcha) have commented about this. I smoke a real one, and immediately can take care of business.

This is a cholinergic effect on the smooth muscles, and I believe it is tied to the MAOIs. Kin, if you can contradict me, I'm all ears...or eyes...or something. It could be that for a brief period I'm just getting enough nic, after all too much nic leads to the runs...and after all nic mimmicks acetylcholine (and thus is also by definition cholinergic). But then so does too much PG or VG lead to runs, since they are lubricants. Too much MAOIs and the colon relaxes so much that it doesn't move. A little and it relaxes enough to unclench the fist, so to speak. My gut (pun intended) tells me it is an MAOI thing, but perhaps not.

I'm only running at 36 mg max, and most of the time around 16 mg. More than that and I start to feel nic-icky (nicky?). You know the feeling. Just putting this on the table because I suspect many are also experiencing this, but who wants to talk about taking a dump, or the inability thereof?? I guess I do. To me it is a red flag that something is chemically not the way it should be. BTW, this effect is independent of whether or not I get fiber every day, which I do as shredded wheat in the AM.

 

[firechick]

I have been reading this thread for some time. I am always amazed and encouraged by the efforts to find out what it is that we're not getting. I like to vape. Sometimes, I even love it........but.........I still want an analog.
I'm still panicky if i don't have one around. I got the trial pack from getsnus and hope that it might help. I have job requirements that demand I be mentally on the ball, and the mental wasteland is not an option.

I also wondered if perhaps tobacco absolute might provide some of the alkaloids that are missing in the juice. Any thoughts, oh chemical gurus?

I'm with OTD, rum, straight- no ice. Captain and cocoa is perfect in a NY winter.

 

[Kurt]

TV, thanks for the kind words! Always happy to spread the love of knowledge. Your contributions to bring simplicity to this subject are every bit as important as the hardcore organic and biochem...perhaps more so.

I noted in your avatar that you are from Lucerne, IN. Been through Lucerne several times. I did much of my teen growing up in Terre Haute...actually West Terre Haute. My Dad is originally from the Winamac/Star City area. I'm firmly east-coast now, but I still have very fond memories of hot summer nights parked with a pretty girl in my '74 Grand Torrino in a hidden end of a corn field, serenaded by cicadas and Robin Trower making his guitar cry on the car stereo. My folks live in Indy now, and so I get a taste of Hoosier life a couple times a year. What I really miss are the blue-gill and crappy fish fries with hushpuppies. And for you uninitiated, that word is pronounced croppy, and its related to the bass. And they are delicious, all five bites of them.

 

[Kurt]

I have been reading this thread for some time. I am always amazed and encouraged by the efforts to find out what it is that we're not getting. I like to vape. Sometimes, I even love it........but.........I still want an analog.
I'm still panicky if i don't have one around. I got the trial pack from getsnus and hope that it might help. I have job requirements that demand I be mentally on the ball, and the mental wasteland is not an option.

I also wondered if perhaps tobacco absolute might provide some of the alkaloids that are missing in the juice. Any thoughts, oh chemical gurus?

I'm with OTD, rum, straight- no ice. Captain and cocoa is perfect in a NY winter.

After googling tobacco absolute, it seems it is only the flavors and aroma compounds of tobacco. Its used in perfumes, and flavoring tobacco e-juices, but I don't get the impression it has alkaloids. Anyone else?

 

[Vaporer]

Twisted, many here are kindered spirits for what ever reason, spoken or not.
You are dead on abt reading the whole thread. When I find a thread that really sparks me, I'll read the whole thing. Some took me over a week of days, but if you don't, a lot is missed as you stated and the meaning can be much diff than the one from just jumping in and reading .

OTD,
I did the same thing if it wa here. I went the other route and stopped and didn't come home enough. Things had to change. I have 3 great kids and 2 grandsons. 'll mention some things to them when needed and appropiate so they can know I'm not just sayin "don't do it" , "I did this and nothing good can come from it" and tell them my story.
Upsets the wife when I do that, but it carries more meaning to them. They even told me so cause they knew it wasnt easy for me to tell them what dad had done in the past.
Many people can regulate into thier lives with no problems, I couldn't.

 

[kinabaloo]

A Note on Tyramine

Increased tyramine levels can increase blood pressure. So it might be advisable to limit tyramine-rich foods in any case (mostly aged food), but particularly if getting MAOIs from tobacco, WTA or, particularly, MAOI based drugs (for depression, bipolar disorder); at least if one is hypertention susceptible. No big deal, but worth noting.

Simple intro to the 'MAOI diet' (precautions when taking MAOI drugs):

MAOIs and Diet - Food Restrictions for Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor Antidepressants

Imo, mouldy cheese and cured meat is best avoided anyway, for other reasons.

 

[Vaporer]

Welcome firechick!
I make a lot of juice from absolutes. You get a rough harsh tobacco flavor that usually needs a little Maltol added. It's no diff in effects than eliquid. That I can assure you.
If you like a hard to explain tobacco flavor its not bad to vape at all. Just takes some fine tuning in the DIY area. Its tough to mix, needs everclear or 151 vodka then filtered.
Perfumers Apprentice has some from Burley and Sumatra has one from Spain from the Rustica strain that has a wonderful aroma and taste. I'll be glad to help by PM if you decide to try it.
Here is a good thread read on aboslutes if you havent seen it:\
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...t-attempt-tobacco-flavor-so-far-new-post.html

Kurt,
No ground rules here. Have to say what you're thinking or whats really going on so we can have an understanding. Some days that may be all I understand.....lol
The chemistry in here jumped some levels, but I still can achieve to find the concept of whats going on. At least I'll keep believing that.

 

[olderthandirt]

Last few posts project a sense of resolution, calm. Nice to hear labels were "ignored" and some satisfaction was realized.

So I look through todays posts and I get this mental image of a picnic like gathering.
The locale is somewhere in the midwest alongside a slow flowing river. Poles line the bank of the river, white and brown bobbers mark the point where their lines disappear into the silty, light brown/green water.

Folks are gathered round a small fire. Here is where they roast on forked sticks their catch from the river. Blue Gill, crappie, sunfish, a few small catfish smothered in a fruit salsa of peach, mango, cilantro, and serrano peppers.

All the while the group here gathered tends their feast, they share libations of Jim Beam, Wild Turkey, Bacardi.

As the sun starts to suggest an approach to twilight, and the black helicopters disappear in to the far horizon, rows of corn in the adjoining field part and the far trekking mage and alchemist arrives with that which all present have anticipated.

The long sought..... WTA

And all was calm, and, all were.....satisfied. ahhhhhhhhh







Waadaya mean I ain't right?!

 

[firechick]

After googling tobacco absolute, it seems it is only the flavors and aroma compounds of tobacco. Its used in perfumes, and flavoring tobacco e-juices, but I don't get the impression it has alkaloids. Anyone else?

Thanks, Kurt! I figured it was worth asking.

Twisted, many here are kindered spirits for what ever reason, spoken or not.
You are dead on abt reading the whole thread. When I find a thread that really sparks me, I'll read the whole thing. Some took me over a week of days, but if you don't, a lot is missed as you stated and the meaning can be much diff than the one from just jumping in and reading .

OTD,
I did the same thing if it wa here. I went the other route and stopped and didn't come home enough. Things had to change. I have 3 great kids and 2 grandsons. 'll mention some things to them when needed and appropiate so they can know I'm not just sayin "don't do it" , "I did this and nothing good can come from it" and tell them my story.
Upsets the wife when I do that, but it carries more meaning to them. They even told me so cause they knew it wasnt easy for me to tell them what dad had done in the past.
Many people can regulate into thier lives with no problems, I couldn't.

Vaporer, It's a good man who lays it all out there for the people he cares about. And here, you are all helping the rest of us with your ability to say what usually goes unsaid. We all have our issues, big or small, and we all struggle with things. It lifts some of the weight to know you aren't the only one dealing with those things. The sharing of thoughts and needs, and the work being done to help those of us who need "something more" than just nicotine is a labor worth gratitude. I'd like to say "thank you".

 

[TropicalBob]

Now I wish to suggest that we look at the bigger, whole-body picture and consider that full-spectrum alkaloids might be important (desirable) for balanced effects on the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems - 'rest and digest' and 'alert; fight or flight at the extreme.

Great little big idea that might explain so many of the reported "side effects" of using e-cigs or dosing on a nicotine substitute. I think you got it, Kin. And I can feel the nearness of the Holy Grail for me and my kind.

 

[kinabaloo]

Great little big idea that might explain so many of the reported "side effects" of using e-cigs or dosing on a nicotine substitute. I think you got it, Kin. And I can feel the nearness of the Holy Grail for me and my kind.

Hope so too TBob.

Here's what I think is going on (a small part of): the stress relief of having a smoke is two things - the satiation of the craving that builds up as levels dip after being raised, and a 'real' biochemical effect of relaxing nature (I will post shortly what I think that is). The nicotine only has mostly the former in terms of relaxation (though most of the alertness-raising effect of analogs).

 

[DVap]

I also wondered if perhaps tobacco absolute might provide some of the alkaloids that are missing in the juice. Any thoughts, oh chemical gurus?

I've messed with tobacco absolute, and it is a very thick material that smells to no end. However, the smell lacks any sharpness whatsoever. It is quoted at zero nicotine, which leads me to believe that the alkaloids were quite purposefully removed.

 

[DVap]

Here's what I can tell folks... The tester started exclusively on WTA eliquid Tuesday morning. Since he had been up vaping and rubbing snus into his belly until 4am prior to beginning the test, he wanted to give sufficient time to allow any remnants of the combo of vaping/snus to wear off, so the detail of his observations increase more as the day goes on.

He wishes to avoid undue attention until after he's finished testing, so he's sent me some observations to post. Once finished, I expect he'll be happy to respond to any questions directed his way.

________________________________________
9:30 A.M.

Testing begins with WTA as sole source.

First impression: Not as dramatic as expected, perhaps due to being up until 4:30 am vaping and snus'ing.

It taste unique, more like the flavors of an analog, even in the flavorless base.

As the day has gone on, I have noticed a high sternum (behind) esophageal/bronchial heaviness. Definitely more like an analog and not what I've ever felt from just vaping.

3:00 P.M.

Satisfied feeling with no hard cravings. Contemplating things around here to do. Seems I have more interest in doing things. Not thinking about vaping, just doing things. Thats unusual since I normally carry the PV to where ever I am in the house making sure I have it handy.

Due to the late previous night, I wasn't as low as normal and now its filling in the drop-off. The longer the day goes, the more I'm realizing it. The chest feeling is still present with each vaping period as well as the flavor.

Monday, I vaped over 3ml with heavy snus usage on a bad day. So far today usage is about 1 ml. (That's whats been used from the 3 ml I measured out, and remains that are in the cart. (3 ml measured out, 1 mL either vaped or still in the cart)

8:40 P.M.

More calmness settled in around 4pm and actually increased past 6pm. Very content right now. Bottle is about 1 1/2 ml full. Starting to really notice longer periods of not even thinking about vaping. Just doing things and happy about it. A contentment time. The heavy feeling dropped off just a little, but I'm not vaping much at all compared to my 4 ml plus add-ons yesterday.

The taste undertones of real analogs is still there. That's just nice, even in flavorless. I have on occasion missed the menthol. Sometimes more than others , but more when I actually think about it.

Been a more than normal productive day. Not stressed about it either. This is basically a liquid analog without the frills like menthol or extra flavors. If I do feel a little "off", I take 3-5 five second vapes and in a few minutes things return to this normal.

I'm not vaping more for more sensation, that is nice. This morning I was wondering if the 3 ml would see 6 pm. If it was good, more was better. Not so...that idea left at some point.

I do think the transition was longer than normal for seeing the full effect due to the carryover from a late last night. But, this is nice. No itch to scratch and if I feel the itch coming a few hits and I'm "OK, lets do this", and its much longer before I go back to the pv. If not, that 3 ml would have been history. By 8pm, this seemed pretty leveled out overall.

Vaping this stuff is very different than just eliquid. OK.. .Lets say vaping this is like the difference between driving a corvette and a chevette. They both get you where you're going. One is way more comfortable than the other. The radio (head noises) are much better in the vette. More power and a smoother ride and not aggravated getting there. Going from point A to point B is just much better with the liquid analog, plain and simple.

(I'm not telling you what you want to hear. If it sucked or was the same I'd say it).

 

[kinabaloo]

Interesting feedback - very encouraging. Seems the guinea pig was more relaxed yet also spent more time active on his/her wheel

Like the car / journey metaphors. Life is only jouney, after all.

Now I'd like to see a blind test with two bottles marked simply A and B, instructions to be 3 days on A, 3 days on B, report back. Maybe bump both with some absolut so taste the same.

 

[Vaporer]

And you dont plan on marketing this? No Menthol !
I know this is in the name of science and having all the many questions answered, but there will be a demand if it has these results on even 1/2 that try it.

 

[DVap]

Interesting feedback - very encouraging.

Like the car / journey metaphors

Life is only jouney, after all.

Now I'd like to see a blind test with two bottles marked simply A and B, instructions to be 3 days on A, 3 days on B, report back. Maybe bump both with some absolut so taste the same.

It would be hard to miss that "something is quite different" with this stuff.

The best I can describe it, something the tester and I were discussing... the liquid tastes like an analog without the smoke. Which makes sense. Nicotine in it's pure state has an odor that is a bit penetrating, but not much character. The total alkaloids in their pure state have a complex, penetrating, burning, and powerful odor. If we look at smoke from an analog simplistically as a mixture of alkaloids and tar, it only makes sense to conclude that the alkaloids make up a decent part of the taste profile, especially in the throat as the perceived "throat hit".

 

[Vaporer]

Question?
Wouldn't any product extracted from "tobacco only" be covered under the existing laws or does it go back to that you made it a diff shape nonsense?

 

[IANAN]

Every time I see this picture I want to bust out laughing.... Where did you get it?

 

[DVap]

Question?
Wouldn't any product extracted from "tobacco only" be covered under the existing laws or does it go back to that you made it a diff shape nonsense?

I have to believe that nobody can tell me I can't do what I want to tobacco, I could stick it up my ... for all anybody has a right to tell me I can't.

As far as having folks testing, I obviously label the stuff "for laboratory use only, not for human consumption". That's called CYA. Nobody will get their hands on this stuff unless they've been told what has been done to the tobacco to produce the liquid. I'm nobody's nanny... folks can read and decide for themselves whether to stop right there at the warning, or go ahead and try it out. It's no worse than the crap-flood of herbal extracts on the market, and probably better than most of them.

As far as a product produced for resale, I'm a bit less certain of the regulatory nuances. I would suspect that the "PTB's" tend to either ignore such things or not, depending on their whim and ulterior motives.