So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[kinabaloo]

A possible way to avoid the need for a volatile non-polar.

Strength of alkali is very important, enough to get most of most types of alkaloid, but not so strong as to get a number of destructive or complicating effects.

A very good choice is ammonium hydroxide (NH4OH). And because this is volatile, final acid-alkali cycling phase can be aqueous solution of the salt rather than freebase in non-polar solvent.

Which allows a wider choice of non-polar solvent

 

[exogenesis]

Phrase heard on TV this evening:
OK, maybe we've got the golden egg, but the goose is not being fed & could starve.
(or maybe wander off, at least)

If DVap has achieved the goal of making a possibly usable TWA (gaaah, TLA's!),
what would be his next achievable objective ?

Answers on a postcard


Vaporer, I'd love to gain some weight, in the right areas of course (no jokes please),
I thought that consumate nicotine satisfaction would cause weight loss due to less eating,
c.f. if you quit nicotine.
Certainly found I was eating less (or thinking of food) when vaping was initially full-on working for me,
even versus smoking. Thought I might waste-away while reading the forum.

Kin., nice ideas but DVap's input would be informative, from the chemistry/practical point of view.

 

[kinabaloo]

wasting my time

 

[exogenesis]

Er...... k

 

[kinabaloo]

Carboline MAOI alkaloids in food and tobacco

Relative exposure to beta-carbolines norharman and harman from foods and tobacco smoke.Herraiz T.
Spanish Council for Scientific Research, Instituto de Fermentaciones Industriales, CSIC, Juan de la Cierva 3, E-28006 Madrid, Spain. therraiz@ifi.csic.es

Norharman and harman are two heterocyclic beta-carboline (9H-pyrido[3,4-b]indole) alkaloids with biological and potential toxicological activity that appear in foodstuffs and environmental sources. ...

The levels found of beta-carbolines were highly variable. Low processed foodstuffs (i.e. milk, yoghurt, uncooked meats and fish) did not contain norharman and harman above the detection limit. Others, however, contained relatively high concentrations (at the tens of ng g(-1) or microg l(-1) level) depending on the processing conditions as, for example, 'well-done' cooked meat and fish. The highest amounts of norharman and harman were found in brewed coffee (29-207 microg l(-1)), sauces (soy sauce and Tabasco, among others; 4-252 microg l(-1)), 'well done' cooked meat and fish (57-160 ng g(-1)), toasted bread (42-160 ng g(-1)), and fermented alcoholic beverages (n.d.-41 mug l(-1)). beta-Carbolines also occurred in a high amount in the mainstream of cigarette smoke (207-2780 ng/cigarette), which is an important contributor to daily exposure to these compounds.

Based on these results, it is concluded that the daily exposure to beta-carbolines in humans might be from tens to hundreds of micrograms, with cigarette smoke, coffee, certain seasonings, cooked foods and alcoholic beverages, in this order, being the major contributors. Many other foodstuffs might also contribute with minor amounts of norharman and harman. Foods and tobacco smoke might be potential contributors to the reported endogenous presence of beta-carbolines in humans.

PMID: 15764332 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

~~~

In the absense of discovery of any other alkaloid candidate likely to be present in tobacco, we are left with MAOI effects of harman, norharman, anabasine (acetylcholine receptor agonist and close relative of nicotine), anatabine, and nornicotine (a secondary tobacco alkaloid that is produced by the N-demethylation of nicotine). And the calming effect due to higher dosage levels of nicotine.

If there is an endorphin release, perhaps it is the result of TH, a pain mediated response similar to that evoked by capsaicin.

~~~

Apparaently there have been patents granted related to MAOIs for improved NRTs :

United States Patent 6,350,479
Williams , et al. February 26, 2002

United States Patent 6,569,470
Williams , et al. May 27, 2003

United States Patent 6,929,811
Williams , et al. August 16, 2005

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Hi, Elf. During a coherent moment your posts came to mind and I thought I'd respond before it slipped back into the darkness . As I read I could feel your anguish, another tortured soul. But, maybe we can rejoice. So far the evidence suggests the missing link (X-Factor) has been found 8-o. If so, the next step would be to find a reputable liquid maker who sees the logic (and windfall of $$$) to produce and market it. As far as I understand, said reputable maker would have the capability already, just do a little recalibration to current proccesses. I hope (screaming to God) it happens and soon, before the FDA gets wind that next years tobacco tax revenue will be lower than expected . Until then, all we can do is wait (Please, God, Please...waaaa). It's not anything we can make at home unless someone prefers vaping gasoline . Until then, pull up a chair, eat some chocolate (dark is best, hold the chili's on mine) and join in the company of other tortured souls who feel your pain. Also, look into snuf, snus and anything by Tropical Bob to tide you over 'til the next generation of e-liquid hits the market .

 

[IANAN]

Fear of litigation too kept innovation from becoming reality. E-cigs could have been a reality decades ago (though would have been a bit chunky given battery technology back then). One can point the finger at 'politics' as much as the tobacco producers for the millions dead over those years. Is history going to repeat itself?

1997- It was when PM released their version to test markets. RJR had theirs out in the 80's and then relaunched it in the 90's ;

NOVA Online | Search for a Safe Cigarette | "Safer" Cigarettes: A History

It's more the FDA and health NGOs that are holding back progress since the BT companies lost their case...

 

[firechick]

I've messed with tobacco absolute, and it is a very thick material that smells to no end. However, the smell lacks any sharpness whatsoever. It is quoted at zero nicotine, which leads me to believe that the alkaloids were quite purposefully removed.

Thanks, DVap.

Anyone have thoughts on a relationship between age at first continued cigarette use and WTA dependency? For example, would a person who began smoking at a young age be more dependent (because their brain matured in a bath of alkaloids) than someone who started smoking regularly in their 20's?

 

[IANAN]

Carboline MAOI alkaloids in food and tobacco

Relative exposure to beta-carbolines norharman and harman from foods and tobacco smoke.Herraiz T.
Spanish Council for Scientific Research, Instituto de Fermentaciones Industriales, CSIC, Juan de la Cierva 3, E-28006 Madrid, Spain. therraiz@ifi.csic.es

Norharman and harman are two heterocyclic beta-carboline (9H-pyrido[3,4-b]indole) alkaloids with biological and potential toxicological activity that appear in foodstuffs and environmental sources. ...

The levels found of beta-carbolines were highly variable. Low processed foodstuffs (i.e. milk, yoghurt, uncooked meats and fish) did not contain norharman and harman above the detection limit. Others, however, contained relatively high concentrations (at the tens of ng g(-1) or microg l(-1) level) depending on the processing conditions as, for example, 'well-done' cooked meat and fish. The highest amounts of norharman and harman were found in brewed coffee (29-207 microg l(-1)), sauces (soy sauce and Tabasco, among others; 4-252 microg l(-1)), 'well done' cooked meat and fish (57-160 ng g(-1)), toasted bread (42-160 ng g(-1)), and fermented alcoholic beverages (n.d.-41 mug l(-1)). beta-Carbolines also occurred in a high amount in the mainstream of cigarette smoke (207-2780 ng/cigarette), which is an important contributor to daily exposure to these compounds.

Based on these results, it is concluded that the daily exposure to beta-carbolines in humans might be from tens to hundreds of micrograms, with cigarette smoke, coffee, certain seasonings, cooked foods and alcoholic beverages, in this order, being the major contributors. Many other foodstuffs might also contribute with minor amounts of norharman and harman. Foods and tobacco smoke might be potential contributors to the reported endogenous presence of beta-carbolines in humans.

PMID: 15764332 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

~~~

In the absense of discovery of any other alkaloid candidate likely to be present in tobacco, we are left with MAOI effects of harman, norharman, anabasine (acetylcholine receptor agonist and close relative of nicotine), anatabine, and nornicotine (a secondary tobacco alkaloid that is produced by the N-demethylation of nicotine). And the calming effect due to higher dosage levels of nicotine.

If there is an endorphin release, perhaps it is the result of TH, a pain mediated response similar to that evoked by capsaicin.

~~~

Apparaently there have been patents granted related to MAOIs for improved NRTs :

United States Patent 6,350,479
Williams , et al. February 26, 2002

United States Patent 6,569,470
Williams , et al. May 27, 2003

United States Patent 6,929,811
Williams , et al. August 16, 2005

Beta-carbolines... just like I said but yes... there was another study before that one that concluded it was harman and norharman that was the cause. Chocolate has Beta-carbolines also.

Mostly the list of plants and herbs I posted has Harman and Norharman in them. Passion Flower has a good source of it....

Oh yes. Harman and Norharman has an interaction with other alkoloids... it makes them do things they otherwise wouldn't do...

 

[kinabaloo]

1997- It was when PM released their version to test markets. RJR had theirs out in the 80's and then relaunched it in the 90's ;

NOVA Online | Search for a Safe Cigarette | "Safer" Cigarettes: A History

It's more the FDA and health NGOs that are holding back progress since the BT companies lost their case...

I saw something about a battery powered tobacco liquid vaporiser way back in the 50s. Should have saved the link.

Found it. Was 1963: http://www.e-cig.org/2009/11/07/new-invention-of-1963-the-smokeless-non-tobacco-cigarette/

 

[IANAN]

Yup... they been workin on it since the 50's....

It's only recently with the advances in rechargeable batteries in addition to ultra-high taxes on tobacco + low cost electronics from China that has made them viable. All those smoking bans also

 

[kinabaloo]

I saw something about a battery powered tobacco liquid vaporiser way back in the 50s. Should have saved the link.

Found it. Was 1965: New Invention of 1963: The Smokeless Non-Tobacco Cigarette | Electronic Cigarettes by Instead E-Cigarette

Real or spoof?

Sure it would have been awkward without modern batteries but is that the only reason nothing came of it?

Of course, adding the glycol fog makes it better.

 

[IANAN]

It would have cost too much back then... also keep in mind physicians were doing adverts and endorsing tobacco products...

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Thanks, DVap.

Anyone have thoughts on a relationship between age at first continued cigarette use and WTA dependency? For example, would a person who began smoking at a young age be more dependent (because their brain matured in a bath of alkaloids) than someone who started smoking regularly in their 20's?

Hey, firechick, I might be able to give you a laymans answer from a laymans understanding . While age would definitly be a factor, I believe it's more importantly determined by genetic predisposition. In my case, the more pleasing the effect on my body or mind the more I want it, crave it and ultimately need it to function correctly. Dvap was able to go long periods of time without a smoke and barely have his feathers ruffled. I, on the other hand would look more like Beatle Bailey after a beating from Sarge after 2 hours. Dvap seems to be level headed and able to maintain a good balance between his body, mind and environment (I still can't shake that picture of the bubbling cauldron and maniacle laughter out of my head, though ). Not needing to rely on something to be even keel. From my earliest memories I've had problems with axiety. The psychoactive ingredients in cigarettes helped to hold the pieces in check. There is the nic dependancy, but I think the real stranglehold comes from before mentioned alkaloids, and the strength of the hold depends on the chemical balance within each individual regardless of age when started. Duration, I think, plays an important role, but, I think a 5 year smoker can struggle just as much as a 50 year smoker. Then, again, there have been 50 year smokers that quit easier than some 25 year smokers. They just walk away and say "I'm done". Hope this helps. The expert will chime in if I screwed up .

 

[firechick]

Hey, firechick, I might be able to give you a laymans answer from a laymans understanding . While age would definitly be a factor, I believe it's more importantly determined by genetic predisposition. In my case, the more pleasing the effect on my body or mind the more I want it, crave it and ultimately need it to function correctly. Dvap was able to go long periods of time without a smoke and barely have his feathers ruffled. I, on the other hand would look more like Beatle Bailey after a beating from Sarge after 2 hours. Dvap seems to be level headed and able to maintain a good balance between his body, mind and environment (I still can't shake that picture of the bubbling cauldron and maniacle laughter out of my head, though ). Not needing to rely on something to be even keel. From my earliest memories I've had problems with axiety. The psychoactive ingredients in cigarettes helped to hold the pieces in check. There is the nic dependancy, but I think the real stranglehold comes from before mentioned alkaloids, and the strength of the hold depends on the chemical balance within each individual regardless of age when started. Duration, I think, plays an important role, but, I think a 5 year smoker can struggle just as much as a 50 year smoker. Then, again, there have been 50 year smokers that quit easier than some 25 year smokers. They just walk away and say "I'm done". Hope this helps. The expert will chime in if I screwed up .

A layman's opinion is very welcome! The chemical analysis is great, too. I think predisposition and anxiety are key elements as well. I am constantly stressed, and constantly wanting a smoke. DVap has my admiration. I haven't been OK with going more than a couple of hours (while awake anyway) since I was a teenager. OOOOh, deep and strange realization.........I have never been a non-smoking adult.8-o

Sure it would have been awkward without modern batteries but is that the only reason nothing came of it?

BT protecting profits even then?

 

[IANAN]

Firechick-- The e-cig is only economically feasible now because ;

1. Many of us are acutely aware of the downside to smoking-- it has been pushed in our faces more or less

2. Tobacco products have been greatly inflated by very heavy taxes on it... I read somewhere that the BT companies only make 1.40 or so a pack off us- the govt gets the rest.

3. Smoking bans.

4. Very low cost Chinese made electronics and e-liquids.

Look back a few pages to the Smoker's Parodox post and at the very front of this thread.... It goes into what TV is talking about.

 

[DVap]

First some day two comments from our fearless tester:
_________________________

Day two is starting off much like day one.

I'm somewhat surprised as I expected a more immediate heaviness on the sternum and a more immediate calming effect.

The delivery, at least for me, must require a higher level of WTA (for a more immediate effect). Adsorption is still noticeably slower than the analog but does develop more like an analog as daily use accumulates.

This leads me to believe I need an initial higher dose or my system starts the day more depleted than most, and the delivery system just needs time to catch up.

1:00 P.M.

As the day progresses , 4 hours now, The WTA effect are coming on as expected. Vaping intervals are getting longer, and the calming effect is increasingly noticeably. Usage does appear to be lower than day one.

4:00 P.M.

Today is turning out different than yesterday. I'm not craving as much during the time between vaping sessions, and sessions aren't as long. The liquid still tastes good and feel good, like an analog does. I added menthol to today's batch. I haven't used 1 ml yet!

A very nice day so far, content, less vaping, and not stressed at all.

 

[DVap]

wow.. a LOT of posts today.

My guess is that kin sent Exo some information on supercritical carbon dioxide extraction. Very attractive from an environmental perspective.

As far as the possibility of removing "junk alkaloids" from the extract, thus cleaning it up further, I've not got any strong opinion developed at this point.

To answer various speculation about where I intend to go with this, the answer might disappoint some. I don't particularly enjoy doing the tobacco extraction and purification. It is time consuming, expensive, and reminds me an awful lot of work. I've felt compelled to do some "off the clock" time on the job to make up for the resources (very modest, but still real) I've used from my job. I've got the single user test going on currently with very encouraging results, and I've got three folks lined up for a second round of testing. After the 2nd round of testing is done, and all the feedback has been received, I'm done with this. At that point, any entrepreneurial soul who possesses or can hire the expertise required to produce WTA extracts is welcome to meet any demand that might exist.

I might try my hand at isolating the alkaloids from some really colored "concentrates" that some suppliers sell to see if they strike me as less refined (containing more tobacco alkaloids), but I'm not committing myself to this at this time.

 

[kinabaloo]

Curious.

We are looking at a slow action alkaloid or just the usual slow absorption of e-liquid; probably the latter.

lol - Initially seemed interested in the extraction process. I still need to read through again but have a pretty good handle now on what to do.

Might go another route if I find out what the other important alkaloids are and a safer to handle source (possibly more unknowns though, needs caution).

Perhaps the colors, at least in the commercial liquids, are from alkaloid salts.

edit: never mind, perhaps some people with commitment and interest will come along

 

[Vaporer]

When I got to the one post, I thought we'd need the space shuttle to bring Kin back lol

DVap , you've been at it hard and much appreciated. Shame thier isn't a simple method to get the good alkies, even with a few of the extra baggage. Not like we didnt smoke them for yrs, but they would make the PV experience better.
No one could expect you to go on and on forever, but a fairly simple easily available portion WTA would be nice. Sounds like we'd all vape less and thats good. Let alone feel better all the while. All your time and effort is greatly appreciated.
Maybe a snus concetrate can be stripped a bit for a similar effect. At least its reduced TNSA's. If nothing else strip the atty gunking crap from it to add to our eliquid.

firechick, I'd say its in the individuals chemistry. Time has to be a factor somewhere as it can alter the bodies functions and needs, desires and cravings when something is removed. Some react harder than others. If the responsible constiuient isn't a major player for the person, the removal isn't as bad. Time could make the diff on when the body quit producing the substitute or when the substitute compound became recognized as needed and a normal state arrived.
Poor description but I think you see what I mean.

Kin, my perspective on slow adsorption has changed somewhat but its tough to justify my own reasoning. When I use Stonewall dissovables 4.5mg and then vape its no more than 3 min I get the hiccups from to much nic. Yet, on the other hand with just a PV alone and even high nic it seems much longer for any effect.
Kinda like flipping a coin and it landing on its edge.
It leads me to believe that the nic adsorbtion is being helped by the whole tobacco product add on. Only logical answer I can arrive at so far.
Both dissovables and snus have raw tobacco , less refined and either seem to accelerate the nicotine adsorbtion of the PV. snus has the WTA effect and the more refined dissolvables dont at all.