So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[olderthandirt]

No OTD, I haven't tried to a suppliment yet. The other side of my issue is that the higher levels of nicotine have a very negative effect on my acid reflux. My theory is that it doesn't matter how I receive the extra nicotine, it still has the same effect on my GI system....
Kevin

I see, makes it all the more difficult for ya I'm sure. The affects on "normal" GI systems, (like any of us are normal), has been brought up in this thread quite often. Kin and IANAN have significant insights on this particular aspect I think...

In response to the questions about reducing withdrawal symptoms, something well worth considering is GABA, which is reasonably easy to obtain. In general, it acts as a stress/anxiety reliever. Research shows that is has a very significant effect on reducing the craving for nicotine/something missing.

GABA is something I did take for a while myself many years ago for stress but I want to study the science more before writing more on the topics (the various ways that GABA (a major neurotransmitter) interacts with various receptors affecting dopamine levels and more. I noted one item of research on GABA and nicotine in the beta carboline thread. And there's more out there.

Obtainable in what ways Kin? Specific food sources perhaps?

 

[kinabaloo]

Obtainable in what ways Kin? Specific food sources perhaps?

GABA - Google Product Search

This is for people who really need something for withdrawal distress. And something useful for anxiety.

For those who enjoy nicotine use and want to add the 'something missing', GABA itself might work, but be more of a party pooper than a party enhancer, if you see what i mean.

However, The biochemistry of GABA in the brain will be a part of understanding the big picture.

 

[olderthandirt]

GABA - Google Product Search

This is for people who really need something for withdrawal distress. And something useful for anxiety.

For those who enjoy nicotine use and want to add the 'something missing', GABA itself might work, but be more of a party pooper than a party enhancer, if you see what i mean.

However, The biochemistry of GABA in the brain will be a part of understanding the big picture.

Oh. I see. Readily available and my own quick search has me nodding off...

 

[IANAN]

My bet is starting to tend toward the minor alkaloids (nornicotine, anabasine, anabatine) rather than the trace components.

Note that nornicotine's half-life is ~8 hours, compared to <2 hours for nicotine. If we assume 2 and 8 hour half-lives, and 90 parts nicotine to 3 parts nornicotine in tobacco, the following is interesting.

Assume a single acute dose:

t = 0 hours
Nic = 90
NNic = 3

t = 8 hours
Nic = 5.6
Nnic = 1.5

With more continuous intake, nornicotine levels will elevate further relative to nicotine.

I'm not a fan of nornicotine, btw.

I'm not a fan of nornicotine either

.... It's real hard to ignore the animal Acetaldehyde studies and the Norharman studies though. It really did it for our rodent friends. If the Aceteldhyde (BTW I don't recommend just adding this to e-liquid) is becoming Harman in our bodies + the trace amount of Harman and Norharman in the smoke in the first place it becomes more significant.

 

[IANAN]

OTD: I am lurking also Hoping when these guys get it figured out they just tell us...OK swallow this this and this and you will be all better! LOL

8-16 ounces of coffee every 2-3 hours on the nose... Don't dare try to vape or worse yet smoke through a fog like headache (Possible if you vape continuously for 20-30 minutes, I just did it earlier in the day, but leaves you with an ultimately relaxed but burnt feeling). Just break down and eat something with sugar or sucrose (Like a banana) and drink some coffee. Make sure not to miss your coffee.

A few hours left on day 5....

Want to see what effects Passion Flower will have.

 

[a2dcovert]

I am in the exact same GERD / Med situation, even posted a about it here:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...et-nicotine-sensitivity-bizarre-symptoms.html

I now vape mostly 11-14 mg but carry a second 510 loaded with a higher nic for "urge" situations. Since I started, I have been using it less and less. May not work for everyone, but so far so good for me. I also found the extra flavor varietys, IE some domestic juices loaded up with Loranns, aggravated the GERD far more then the thinner commonly available liquids.

It really is a work in progress for us. I'm making decissions that I shouldn't have to make. But, until the medical community catches up to us we may be alone. At least my GP is willing to work with me on this. I guess I am on the bleeding edge of science?

I see, makes it all the more difficult for ya I'm sure. The affects on "normal" GI systems, (like any of us are normal), has been brought up in this thread quite often. Kin and IANAN have significant insights on this particular aspect I think...

I know that there many out there with the same issues. Most probably quit trying and become another NRT failure.

Kevin

 

[rickghouse]

The plan is to formulate an alkaloid coctail of 8 ingredients:

1 nornicotine (l- & d-)
2 myosmine
3 nicotyrine
4 anabasine
5 anatabine
6 2,3-dipyridyl
7 N-methyl-anabasine
8 N-methyl-anatabine

Nicotine has been omitted, since the new liquid can easily be mixed with anyone's favorite e-juice.

My friend is not comfortable with adding any ingredients not naturally occuring in tobacco (as DVap wisely stated).

But here's the problem: she says the link (short list) & pdf (humungous list) only provided the proportions for some of the alkaloids.

Does anyone have this information?

And am I correct in assuming that these are indeed the alkaloids of highest concentration (next to Nicotine) in tobacco? Sorry, I couldn't find the post that I originally got the list from.

Thanks,

Rick.

 

[IANAN]

(Cat's Claw) Day five;

1. Desire to smoke- No desire to smoke in morning. No strong urges... more like small twinges.

2. Mental Awareness state (Mental Fog)- No loss of volition in the morning. Loss of volition in mid afternoon-early when coffee was not administered 3 hours after lunch. Slow build up to what would be called mental fog leading to slight pain surrounding the head (Headache). Smoking itself did not clear the mental fog. Very heavy vape session (around 20 minutes) cleared fog and left body in a relaxed but best described as a burnt-like nerve state. Only after coffee was administered did burnt feeling leave.

3. Anxiety (Relaxed state) and restlessness- Insomnia the night before. Period of excess energy similar to caffeine buzz, not present. In general anxiety only after coffee not administered at 3 hours after linch. General feeling of well-being earlier in the day and after final dose of coffee. Noticed that while vaping or shortly after session if the atomizer, while still warm, is placed on the hand between thumb and finger and allowed to rest there while warm, tends to have soothing feeling.

4. Perceived GI (Gastro-intestinal) effects including effects on bowl movements- normal.

5. Effectiveness of and frequency of vaping sessions to reduce cravings- Still most effective when drinking coffee .

6. Number of traditional cigarettes consumed (If any)- 8

 

[IANAN]

Rick,

Acetaldehyde, Harman, and Norharman are naturally occurring in tobacco.

 

[llcoolbeans]

I don't think the nicotine makes it to the bloodstream. I just had my first vape tonight. It's from a cartomizer of the high nicotine content variety. I haven't smoked a cigarette in 6 months. If I had a legacy cigarette right now I would have a ripping buzz. I have been sucking on this thing all night and I get no buzz from the cartomizer.

It's a very satisfying "smoke" though. I'm quite happy with this little device. It's like having your cake and eating it too. YES!!!

 

[rickghouse]

Rick,

Acetaldehyde, Harman, and Norharman are naturally occurring in tobacco.

Thanks, IANAN! I didn't know that.

However, we're aiming at just the top few in terms of percentage of tobacco. We're trying to keep this project from getting "crazy expensive".

 

[IANAN]

Adding the two together, whole body exposure would be 85 ng/analog or 1.7 ug/pack.

They'd have to be potent little MAOI's...

The estimate was at per Kg of body weight.....

 

[kinabaloo]

Although the second most prevalent alkaloid in t smoke, I don't have the feeling that nornicotine is part of the 'something missing'; perhaps because it has similar effects to nicotine, to the extent it has any.

Nornicotine self-administered by rats:

SpringerLink - Journal Article

Also because it has a number of harmful effects, such as causing aberrant protein glycation:

A previously undescribed chemical link between smoking and metabolic disease ? PNAS

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=166203

Then again, as a metabolite of nicotine it cannot be completely avoided; although a designed mix of alkaloids might choose to exclude it as a starting constituent.

It is however a minor metabolite (and/but the only psychoactive one):

http://www.scripps.edu/news/sr/sr2002/chm05.html

Nornicotine does have MAOI activity.

The beta carboline family seems to have the psychoactive activity we are looking for; and as far as I know, non-toxic (within limits obviously).

~~

On actetaldehyde: not a good idea, as I guess we all agree, so I won't go into details.

 

[IANAN]

Thanks, IANAN! I didn't know that.

However, we're aiming at just the top few in terms of percentage of tobacco. We're trying to keep this project from getting "crazy expensive".

Kin looked it up- it would add a penny to the total cost if the most efficient source is used.

Have your friend look through the list and sit down and explain the health risks involved with each of these alkaloids. Especially nornicotine.

 

[DVap]

Although the second most prevalent alkaloid in t smoke, I don't have the feeling that nornicotine is part of the 'something missing'; perhaps because it has similar effects to nicotine, to the extent it has any.

Nornicotine self-administered by rats:

SpringerLink - Journal Article

Also because it has a number of harmful effects, such as causing aberrant protein glycation

A previously undescribed chemical link between smoking and metabolic disease ? PNAS

Then again, as a metabolite of nicotine it cannot be completely avoided; although a designed mix of alkaloids might choose to exclude it as a starting constituent.

The beta carboline family seems to have the psychoactive activity we are looking for; and as far as I know, non-toxic (within limits obviously).
[more later]

The WTA liquid should preclude acetaldehyde, such that if IANAN's comments about acetaldehyde reacting to produce carbolines were to represent the mechanism behind the x-factor, then without acetaldehyde present, the WTA would not have worked so well.

 

[kinabaloo]

A study of adding minor alkaloids to nicotine

The study picked "five minor alkaloids found in tobacco smoke (anabasine, nornicotine, anatabine, cotinine and myosmine)."

The conclusion: "These results suggest that the minor tobacco alkaloids, particularly anatabine, cotinine and myosmine, may increase the motivation for nicotine"

The abstract (took some hunting down, this one) :

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=6382912

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

testing....testing.......posts not posting.....testing......this thing on......testing

 

[IANAN]

Dvap... and the beta-carbolines wouldn't have likely vaped either in that case either because of the temperatures required?

Interesting...

Curious how well the WTA would hold up to a 1 week or 1 month test. And no- I can't fund it. Just talking out loud.

 

[olderthandirt]

testing....testing.......posts not posting.....testing......this thing on......testing

He's baaacckkk...

 

[IANAN]

ODT... I am really shocked about the effects the coffee have had... Don't know if it is just the coffee or the coffee, nicotine, and Cat's Claw together.

I mostly drink tea, but yeah... I wouldn't have suspected that much effect from just some coffee... It really shocked me how severe the effects are if I am late dosing myself with coffee.