So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[olderthandirt]

ODT... I am really shocked about the effects the coffee have had... Don't know if it is just the coffee or the coffee, nicotine, and Cat's Claw together.

I mostly drink tea, but yeah... I wouldn't have suspected that much effect from just some coffee... It really shocked me how severe the effects are if I am late dosing myself with coffee.

Whole 'nuther thread in the makings there...
Coffee and Nicotine: The Awesome Duo, and Why We Love Them

 

[kinabaloo]

Boiling Points (or decomposition) of alkaloids of interest

anabasine: vapable, bp:136C
anatabine: vapable, bp:145C; dark yellow, orange brown color when oxidised
myosmine: vapable, bp:82C

cotinine: vapable, bp:250C

(nicotine: bp:247C)

(not sure, but harman and norharman might be around 260C)

The actual bp of the mix with a glycol would be lower (but complex); in short, though many alkaloids decompose before boiling (or even melting), the key ones to us are vapable.

So seems still on the right lines

~~~

Of note: MAOIs dramatically affect withdrawal period too

Elsevier

 

[kristin]

First, Kin, thanks for taking the time to find that TBob did indeed proffer the "something missing" notion in a thread more than a year ago. And I got clobbered for not being a true believer and evangelist for the First Church of E-Smoking.

Note on e-smoking soaked snus: I still like it. I do use the 801 cart and now use mostly tasteless Wine&Dine snus that I soak in Bickford Kahlua flavoring (just PG and flavor). Most other snus portions are too large for small carts like the 901 or 510. The General Mini Mint is excellent, though, and comes with its own flavor. I soak it in VG.

In terms of satisfaction in replacing my 30-a-day cig habit that I ditched more than two years ago: Snus, Stonewall Java dissolvables, pipe, e-cigs. In that order. The first three all are tobacco based. E-cigs, of course, offer just nicotine -- and something is missing that the other three alternatives contain.

OK, it took me two days, but I finally read this thread begining to end. (I confess I glossed over some of the more technical posts listing every element on earth, lol.)

This is some facinating and exciting stuff! Thanks to all of you who have been contributing so much time and effort!

Some of you may have read my situation with my husband - he is definitely in the "something is missing" group. We upped his nicotine to 36mg, added a huge amount of menthol, got HV liquid - all trying to scratch that itch. He is down to 1/2 - 1 cigarette a day or less, but he's frustratrated.

The alkaloids make sense. He does suffer from mild ADD, OCD, panic attacks and depression. Since alcohol is a depressant, it makes sense that his urge to smoke increases substantially when he drinks.

The reason out of all of these hundreds of posts that I chose to quote Tbob's is because my interest in snus is piqued. Since we don't have WTA to buy, that seems the only viable option right now.

I do have some concern about holding snus in the mouth and how it affects teeth and gums, as he already had dental issues I would rather not exacerbate. So, I'm interested in the snus/PG composite. It seems, though, that it doesn't leech any or enough alkloids from the snus to do the trick, as Tbob still uses so many other products, along with the snus, to satisfy his cravings?

Why would that be? Would it be better to soak the snus in something else, like alcohol, to make an extraction and then add that to PG? What are the other "bad" things in tobacco that occur even when not burned?

Sorry if this is a digression - but it seems in line with other ways to get the alkaloids, while waiting for WTA to become available on the open market...

I'm also wondering about the difference in Camel snus and Swedish snus - but I can check out the smokeless alternatives forum for that.

 

[olderthandirt]

Hey kristin
A couple to get ya started
Will Swedish Snus Give You Cancer? - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

Snus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kinabaloo]

Kristin -

Thanks - i forgot to point out before that most alkaloids are barely soluble in water but generally extract quite well in alcohol (ethanol, PG, VG). However, perhaps most of the alkaloids would be in salt form and so would be soluble soluble.

Vaping such an extract introduce heating though. Seems a reasonale idea, if the anount of active ingredients (e.g. the nic) was knowable. I'll leave it for others to pipe up on this ...

ps: a low dose (initially anyway) of GABA might be useful for your hubby (reduces smoking cravings and is anti-anxiety).

 

[kristin]

Kristin -

Thanks - i forgot to point out before that most alkaloids are barely soluble in water but generally extract quite well in alcohol (ethanol, PG, VG).

Vaping such an extract introduce heating though. Seems a reasonale idea, if the anount of active ingredients (e.g. the nic) was knowable. I'll leave it for others to pipe up on this ...

ps: a low dose (initially anyway) of GABA might be useful for your hubby (reduces smoking cravings and is anti-anxiety).

Thanks, Kin. (And Older - I did read those links.)

I vaguely remember GABA being mentioned - could you please refresh my memory, if you have a moment?

 

[kinabaloo]

In response to the questions about reducing withdrawal symptoms, something well worth considering is GABA, which is reasonably easy to obtain. In general, it acts as a stress/anxiety reliever. Research shows that is has a very significant effect on reducing the craving for nicotine/something missing.

GABA is something I did take for a while myself many years ago for stress but I want to study the science more before writing more on the topics (the various ways that GABA (a major neurotransmitter) interacts with various receptors affecting dopamine levels and more. I noted one item of research on GABA and nicotine in the beta carboline thread. And there's more out there.

http://www.google.com/products?q=GA...esult_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDIQrQQwAw

Kina

 

[a2dcovert]

I guess I appreciate all the technical discussion and research. I fail to understand how this will help the everyday smoker like me. None of the ingrediences I have seen will be available to someone like me. The chance of getting anything like this approved for use are somewhere between zero and nill. I guess it is a bad night for me, blame it on PMS (Post Smoking Syndrom).

Kevin

 

[kinabaloo]

All the ingredients required are in tobacco

We just need to be a little more careful to not throw the baby out with the bath-water.

 

[kristin]

In response to the questions about reducing withdrawal symptoms, something well worth considering is GABA, which is reasonably easy to obtain. In general, it acts as a stress/anxiety reliever. Research shows that is has a very significant effect on reducing the craving for nicotine/something missing.

GABA is something I did take for a while myself many years ago for stress but I want to study the science more before writing more on the topics (the various ways that GABA (a major neurotransmitter) interacts with various receptors affecting dopamine levels and more. I noted one item of research on GABA and nicotine in the beta carboline thread. And there's more out there.

GABA - Google Product Search

Kina

Thanks, Kina.

Am I looking for GABA exactly or L-theanine?

 

[kinabaloo]

L-Theanine also good (basically, the calming active in tea; and a MAOI).

Try theanine first. But GABA most likely to curb the cravings.

To see how the two relate to each other and the bigger picture, have a look for example here:

http://www.web-us.com/l-theanine_anxiety_reducer.htm

"Theanine has been shown to reduce mental and physical stress, and improves cognition and mood in a synergistic manner with caffeine."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine

Rather like the factor x - nic combo.

 

[DVap]

Thanks, Kina.

Am I looking for GABA exactly or L-theanine?

Theanine does cross the blood/brain barrier and up-regulates GABA and dopamine. While GABA is an important neurotransmitter, I'm not so sure it can cross the blood/brain barrier from the outside.

kin is probably better versed on this stuff, he Googles enough after all so he might be able to say more on the relative benefit of one versus the other.

 

[kinabaloo]

Somehow it works !

OTC GABA and the Blood-Brain Barrier

Might be that only what is needed is allowed in (somehow). The barrier might have some 'intelligence' (just because we tend not to think of it like this now doesn't mean it can't work that way). Skin absorbtion of some minerals is controlled in a way like this (as though some kind of intelligent homeostasis is at work); gut too, again in some cases. This probably applies, to the extent it does, if at all, only to those molecules that the body is familiar with.

I'm thinking that if it gets in only in cases of 'leaky barrier', perhaps that leaky barrier is what caused an internal imbalance leading to the need. Pure speculation of course, but interesting.

 

[olderthandirt]

Somehow it works !

OTC GABA and the Blood-Brain Barrier

OK kin, I read it, laymans terms?

 

[kristin]

My husband is a big energy drink user. Sobe Vitamin water (blackberry grape) and Gatorade (Tiger Woods) both tout containing L-theanine. I thought maybe a good way to get him started.

I'm a bit confused about the GABA vs. L-theanine because some article refer to L-theanine affecting GABA in the brain?

So, you can get a GABA suppliment or a L-theanine suppliment, then. The GABA is stronger or more concentrated, then? Or is L-theanine a type of GABA? So confused...

Thanks for trying to help, guys. I should get to sleep soon, my brain is fried! LOL

 

[a2dcovert]

All the ingredients required are in tobacco

We just need to be a little more careful to not throw the baby out with the bath-water.

Sorry if I sound stressed out, but I am. This is getting to be a very exasporating quest. To take any of these products I would have to try and determine how these natural suppliments would interact with the drugs I am currently taking for anxiety and stress plus others. If I decide to self medicate it would take a mountain of research. But, I will keep tuned to your discussions.

Kevin

 

[kristin]

Theanine does cross the blood/brain barrier and up-regulates GABA and dopamine. While GABA is an important neurotransmitter, I'm not so sure it can cross the blood/brain barrier from the outside.

kin is probably better versed on this stuff, he Googles enough after all so he might be able to say more on the relative benefit of one versus the other.

I think that I read, too, that L-theanine DOES cross the barrier and GABA taken orally may not?

Why do you believe GABA would possibly curb cravings better, Kina?

 

[kinabaloo]

I think that I read, too, that L-theanine DOES cross the barrier and GABA taken orally may not?

Why do you believe GABA would possibly curb cravings better, Kina?

I'm sleepy too (5:30am here!). It's complicated. My speculation is that GABA may work only for those who need it. Go with the Theanine first; less controversial.

These ideas are for people distressed with smoking withdrawal. An aside to the alkaloids and WTA main theme.

Earlier on TV: if atoms were collapsed so that the electrons were lumped in with the nucleus, matter would shrink in size quite a bit. In fact, a person, say, would become very very small. So very small, that 5 billion people would fit inside a sugar cube.

That's how strange our world is !

All the cat lovers out there, who are wondering why atoms dont collapse (as they should, no), can look up 'Schrödinger' and go from there. And if you work out the remaining inadequacies in our models, do post back

 

[kristin]

Thanks, Kina. That should get me started. I'm off to sleep now! (And back to lurking unless I can contribute or have questions - move over Twisted, Frankie & Olderthandirt!)

 

[kinabaloo]

btw, receptors (including smell) rely on quantum tunneling to work.

And photsynthesis also involves quantum physics effects, to be 99% efficient.