So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[DVap]

Thanks Bob.. and thanks to the other testers as well!

So now we have all the reports in. Between rounds 1 and 2, I'd call it three positives and a mixed.

I was really worried about the round 2 taste. I didn't like it myself. I'd been pointed to the tobacco by the clerk at the tobacco shop. He led me to believe it was an RYO cigarette tobacco, but it was actually a pipe tobacco.

I've since done a batch with additive-free Natural American Spirit (the one in the dark blue can), and it produces a better yield and a cleaner liquid than the previous batches. I could easily make 500 mL of my preferred 15 mg/mL with just a pound of this stuff.

The round one test was done at 28 mg/mL WTA, and round two was done at 30 mg/mL WTA. Three of four testers reported good to excellent effectiveness at either replacing other alternatives entirely or cutting them down significantly, while one of four reported only limited effectiveness.

Other than my comments above, I'll leave it to folks to read the impressions of the testers themselves and draw their own conclusions.

Now I'm gonna kick back and relax for awhile!

 

[Vaporer]

Twisted, I've done the nasal snuff before. Thats why you never carry a white handkerchief.

TB, what a time to try it. Think I would have held off.
With what you went through, I think I'd sit back with a stiff drink and inject the WTA!

Ad parody, NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

 

[rickghouse]

Now I'm gonna kick back and relax for awhile!

You deserve it, DVap. What a great contribution you have made to the vaping community!

Now we need a manufacturer to pick up on it. And why wouldn't they? Meeting the needs of consumers is always profitable. We could be on the verge of a whole new era in e-cigs, thanks to DVap.

Rick.

 

[kinabaloo]

TBob - with you on the study. Was thinking the same thing as I was reading though your report, so happy to see you mention it - this is definitely worth a study.

What I know about mouth bacteria is that those that can aggravate decay (by acid production) fight for territorial supremacy with those that can aggravate gum disease. So most people tend to one or the other.

PG is a good candidate for promoting oral hygiene. I'd like to see the testing. If it killed most bacteria but not the most harmful ones (for teeth or gums) it would be counter-productive. Yet I am hopeful it will be found effective.

VG, on the other hand, might be bad for oral health - depends on whether the alcohol or sugar nature predominates. My guess is that once diluted, the anti-bacterial property of its alcohol nature will be ineffective, but the sugar nature will feed oral bateria; so bad news. But again, only testing will tell us for sure.

 

[sunset]

DVap,

"I've since done a batch with additive-free Natural American Spirit (the one in the dark blue can), and it produces a better yield and a cleaner liquid than the previous batches. I could easily make 500 mL of my preferred 15 mg/mL with just a pound of this stuff."

Thanks! Now American Spirit is one I'm really interested in, since it doesn't have additives. Which, of course, is what I'd like to get off of as much as possible.

From what I'm understanding, the previous posts are based on a different type for those results ( and of course, you did just stated some for American Spirit). But, more results might be coming is someone wishes to share on this type?

Thanks again for all you done and to the others for the information/feedback.

I'll be lurking along(s).

 

[kinabaloo]

sunset - a similar protocol to DVap, to isolate and purify just the alkaloids?

 

[unmatter]

Great job DVap! As an aside, you can buy American Spirit tobacco directly from them a lot cheaper than in stores with free shipping. Just call the number on the label to order.

 

[DVap]

DVap,

"I've since done a batch with additive-free Natural American Spirit (the one in the dark blue can), and it produces a better yield and a cleaner liquid than the previous batches. I could easily make 500 mL of my preferred 15 mg/mL with just a pound of this stuff."

Thanks! Now American Spirit is one I'm really interested in, since it doesn't have additives. Which, of course, is what I'd like to get off of as much as possible.

From what I'm understanding, the previous posts are based on a different type for those results ( and of course, you did just stated some for American Spirit). But, more results might be coming is someone wishes to share on this type?

Thanks again for all you done and to the others for the information/feedback.

I'll be lurking along(s).

The additives likely get mostly excluded during the processing to isolate the alkaloids, but judging from the aftertaste of the batch made with pipe tobacco, perhaps not entirely (or the pipe tobacco alkaloids had a different taste profile?).

My experience with this has been that when you're doing a lot of work to produce a small volume of material, the stronger tobacco, the better. Some improvement has been via using a stronger tobacco (NAS), and some improvement has likely come with repetition/experience.

At this time, were I to consider producing/selling, the cost for 30 mL of 30 mg/mL WTA liquid would be shocking. This is due to the process I'm using and the purity of the solvents I'm insisting upon. Use cheap dirty solvents, you produce dirty WTA liquid. The idea is harm reduction, not replacing one harm with another. Most extraction procedures you'll find at places like sciencemadness.org always get caught on two extremely troublesome issues: really terrible emulsions during extraction and really poor recovery. I'm disinclined to share the specifics of how I overcome these problems, but it works nicely. On the other hand, the solution to the problem of sloppy emulsions and poor recovery is the reason for the prohibitive cost. To produce that 30 mL of 30 mg/mL WTA liquid requires around $50 in raw materials plus hours of work. On the other extreme, I could produce maybe 225 mL of 30 mg/mL WTA from a pound of tobacco (much more and the process gets unwieldy). The raw materials scale a bit better at this amount, but the work multiplies. It wouldn't be worth my effort selling at less than $90 for just 30 mL of 30 mg/mL WTA. Suffice to say, it's an expensive process. I could consider alternatives that would be far cheaper on raw materials, but this would put me back in the realm of the procedures that are already being thrown around on the Internet... along with their problems.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

TBob, I'm amazed you did so well under the curcumstances. While reading half way through your review I was wishing I had a cigarette to calm my nerves 8-o. Ya know, the test is best performed in real world situations, not extreme conditions . I'd be interested to to know, if there's enough WTA left, how you fare when the dust settles a bit.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Twisted, I've done the nasal snuff before. Thats why you never carry a white handkerchief.

TB, what a time to try it. Think I would have held off.
With what you went through, I think I'd sit back with a stiff drink and inject the WTA!

Ad parody, NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

So, you're saying no to my IV drip method .

 

[TropicalBob]

I agree on real-world, and hope I have enough to use when normalcy returns to my mouth!

But, on the other hand, how many ex-smokers are driven back to cigarettes at the exact moment of a crisis? They can handle day-to-day events right up to the moment their lives are impacted. Then they need a cig -- and go get one.

I actually used far less alternative nicotine during my WTA test period, so it made a dent in my nicotine needs.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I agree on real-world, and hope I have enough to use when normalcy returns to my mouth!

But, on the other hand, how many ex-smokers are driven back to cigarettes at the exact moment of a crisis? They can handle day-to-day events right up to the moment their lives are impacted. Then they need a cig -- and go get one.

I actually used far less alternative nicotine during my WTA test period, so it made a dent in my nicotine needs.

Aaah, good point. Through adversity you still underdid your normal intake.

 

[Vaporer]

TB, thats when most people do go back to smoking. Anything that puts heavy stress on a person is likely to drive them back. Same with alcohol. Easy to slip when your thinking is disturbed and you are emotionally vunerable.

All in all, The results from round 2 are pretty much what I would expect. Knowing what I do abt the testers.
Also, THANK YOU to all round 2 testers!

More later.

 

[Vaporer]

Ok, here we go.

As tester 1(round 1) the WTA was set right in my ball park. Intentionally or by chance I dont know. But I feel thats why it suited me so well. I normally vape 18-24mg, but have gotten by a day without major problems with 12-16mg from testing additives. So, the 28mg WTA was right at my normal level or just slightly above.

Tester #1 I felt would see a big benefit due to his description(chat) and the fact he used more nic to try to compensate. So, if he felt any positive benefits from the WTA MAOI's he would be happy, but maybe a little nic short. I wasnt sure of his normal daily vape strength.

Tester #2, I know he likes nic at 36 -48mg and I wondered if DVap had considered this when making the batches. It would have been more work for him, but the results were pretty much as expected. He would feel better from the WTA, but was starting off nic low and used to snus and getting some MAOI's from them. This batch was set for 30mg and he started off short of his daily amount. It slowed his comsumption in the begining, but he felt the need to catch up. He wasnt happy with the flavor. Well, that can be a big part of the experience.

As ex analog smokers we all had our favorite brands and when we had to buy a different brand, we didnt enjoy it as much or smoked as many as normal.

Tester #3, uses a wide range of products. Some high nic and low MAOI (Stonewall) , snus and nasal snuff, both not great in nic, but being whole minimal refined tobacco products are high in the MAOI dept. So he is accustomed to high in both. His results were a reduction overall, which would be expected, but nothing near complete abstinence from all he uses. For him it would be like a more complete addin to his daily routine. I think thats what we see overall. A redduction due to more completeness.

I'm not meaning any of this to be critical of the testers in any way shape or form. Just the data presented and the results seen and I applaud thier willingness to participate.
I think the results would have been better yet if the nic/WTA would have been more matched to the testers daily nic intake. We can't expect everything and are lucky to have what we do here. Hindsight is always 20-20 and it would have been more work for DVap. So much has been learned from all this.

So, what do I see form all this? If WTA were to be produced for commercial purposes I could see different levels of it in diff nic/WTA combinations. Actually not much different than we see presently with analogs. Some will like the high nic with low WTA, others may want low nic and more WTA ratios. It comes back to filling the individuals needs.
Many would find the WTA/nic ratio the standard analog has very satisfying. Others would prefer the effects of WTA and not be as concerned with the nic. Actually I think people would chose the WTA satisfaction 1st, then up the nic level till satisfied all in a flavor they enjoyed. I could also see using this method a reduction in scripts for anti depression, anxiety and similar types of medications as this would fill that void.

And that folks is my take on it. If the PV and eliquid arent banned, the company that doesnt pick it up is gonna give away a lot of profits.

 

[kinabaloo]

moot post ...

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Good observation, Vaporer. I found the WTA amount fine. With a little higher mg nic vaped once in a while I could live on it, I think. Although, my system was completely depleted of the associated alkaloids at the time, so with continued use I'm pretty sure a higher WTA would possibly be needed stay even. As you said, it would most likely be a ratio in sinc with the mg of the nicotine I feel comfortable with. For OTD and TBob the alkaloid content was just too low compared to what's normally floating around in their systems. Actually, I was really surprised TBob took to it as he did. I've read many of his posts and watched 1 video and sorta got the impression he is a walking, talking alkaloid. Has to be. With a bad tooth. Also, I agree that this has real medicinal use for treatment of depression, but, sadly, Big Pharma will see that never happens .

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Vaporer, where'd your observation go ? My response seems a little weak, now.

 

[newkirk]

TBob - thanks for trying and documenting, and you have my sympathy for your personal hell. After reading your post I had a few questions and thoughts.

Could you discern whether your need for snus et al was more seeking nicotine or the 'something else'? IIRC you usually vape stronger e-liquid, right? I'm wondering if you might be better served diluting the WTA with a higher-nic flavorless, possibly getting enough nicotine and enough of the 'something else' WTA includes. (would have the potential benefit of diluting the flavor as well)

You said the second day you used 2 mg - you do you mean 2 ml, right?

You said the first day you used 1/6 your usual snus and 3/10 your usual stonewall. That sounds like a very positive outcome, especially with the ordeal you're enduring.

After reading the "smells like a cigar" comment, I'm thinking that anyone trying to capitalize on this might be well-served by looking into excluding the more aromatic components to see if they're necessary to the 'something else' or can be excluded readily.

One of the big advantages of e-cigs is satisfying hand-to-mouth habits and so on - what about snus? Do you think there's a similar non-biochemical habit that you satisfy with snus? If you were to get all the nicotine and other alkaloids you 'need' would you still reach for the snus occasionally?

j

 

[kinabaloo]

Vaporer, where'd your observation go ? My response seems a little weak, now.

I think maybe my saying 'well said' unnerved him

It was all good points. Might not be when it reappears though?

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Ok. I must be going crazy. Maybe WTA has side effects.