So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[TWISTED VICTOR]

In my case the WTA really put me back together. The nic was a bit low, so a supplement of higher octane made it just right. What I wondered about at the time was if the WTA would sustain me in the long run. Hard to say, but I do seem to have a high tolerance for anything that alters my moods/emotions. As I stated in my review, my system was completely void on all tobacco alkaloids, not having smoked for over 2 months and never having used any ST products. I'd speculate that eventually the alkaloid content would need to be higher. Just like, if I were to take a couple shots of Wild Turkey I'd feel pretty buzzed, but, within 24 hours it would take a 5th to tickle my fancy (frankly, I've repeated this pattern many times). It was similar with prescription antidepressants, several weeks of raising potency and dosages to multi scripts (not a path I care to ever repeat, either). During the testing period I never stopped chain vaping the WTA. Maxed out and normal. But if I was excited or interested in something I felt the need for a "boost", the same as how, when smoking, I'd light up even if I'd just put one out. Not an option when I'm already chaining. Although I believe the "boost phenomenon" will always be experienced due to slow absorption, I feel a higher alkaloid content would have kept it non-existent unless the situation or my emotion was more intense (letting the dog out to pee usually seems less than celebratory). That said, WTA, in whatever ratio, is surely "what's missing" in e-liquid and all current NRT's. I think DVap's theory now has proof to back it up, and even though I feel the current ecig is the most successful NRT (unofficially) out there, without the associated alkaloids most NRT users are doomed to failure at some point. It might just take a little longer for ecig users .

 

[DVap]

Snus is effective. Look no further than the smoking rates in Sweden compared to the rest of Europe.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Add to my last post: In my opinion, any ecig user that is struggling (and I believe there are many on this forum that won't admit it), even when using high nicotine liquids, and is serious about staying off the smokes, would be wise to consult the vast postings of Tropical Bob, The Wiz, Dredbull and others who have done the Lewis and Clark into the smokeless tobacco frontier. Unless or until WTA liquid is produced by a savvy manufacturer, ST seems to have the glue that holds the pieces of our frail psyche in place. My friend, olderthandirt, is my example. If it helps someone that old and crazy there's no reason it can't work for the rest of us . Cheers!



P.S. Trog, I think DVap finally answered your question, hope you've been following along...and let Jason know when you see him. Next time he's apt to bring some Benson and Hedges in liquid form that'll hit the sweet spot .

 

[Vaporer]

Excellent points Twisted.

Long term and short term use shows even PV users go looking. I think flavor is a very important part too. You should know you're gonna enjoy it when you reach for it, not just something to use to feel better.
Many will start off using any flavor they can get thier hands on. Some may enjoy that, but I feel they are looking to find the missing part and where we found WTA in one way or another, we tried higher nic, I did the flavor thing and its all to fill the missing void. Everyones mind has been so conditioned thats just nicotine. So untrue.

There just isn't a hard line one fits all solution. (hahaha punny)
I'd render a guess that it can be off a certain small % and the body will adjust.
I don't know if I'd say they wont admit it or they just dont realize it.
You'll see more than you though in the classifieds saying "it isnt' for them", "I give up", "selling my liquid, bit gonna hold onto the equipment".
So they are there. It's amazing how many of the analog habits a PV and eliquid covers.

 

[olderthandirt]

....My friend, olderthandirt, is my example. If it helps someone that old and crazy there's no reason it can't work for the rest of us . Cheers!
...

I believe I resemble that remark.

The snus isn't the end all be all just yet for me. Held off with no vape for 6 hours today, snus/snuff only. No longer though, had to get a hit.

I almost enjoyed feeling/watching the vapor curl up past my face more than the taste and TH and such...

 

[Vaporer]

OTD,

The list of things that wouldn't resemble us would be shorter.
Nice snus score card !

 

[TropicalBob]

My problem seems to be that I so enjoy all of my alternatives. I have some new 48mg WTA liquid that I've been using all day. And I just sniffed Toque Blueberry Menthol nasal snuff. Go figure.

I've also used my regular Java Stonewall pellets, first thing in the morning with coffee and after all meals. Smoked a pipe at mid-morning. But I will say the new 48mg WTA is super-powerful. The throat hit is excellent and this vapor can be felt in the lungs. I had that same reaction to some tasteless 48mg nic liquid, however, so it's most likely heartburn I'm experiencing.

To counter any vasoconstriction, I'm dosing 500mg of sustained-release niacin daily. I still feel the flush, the headache, the skin itch!

So far, no nausea. I did get overdosed the other night to the point that I couldn't get off the couch when the football game ended. I was doing snus and the WTA liquid while watching the game.

I've said before that my task is to find the right combination that leaves me satisfied but never overdosed. I know my WTA supply is limited, though, so whatever I discover with it will apply only to the science that dVap and kin develop from all this.

Kin, I began taking 1,500mg daily of GABA yesterday. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I think flavor is a very important part too. You should know you're gonna enjoy it when you reach for it, not just something to use to feel better.

Yes, very true. Not only does it add to the "treat"/"reward" feeling, I'd also think it would add a little serotonin to the mix .

I don't know if I'd say they wont admit it or they just dont realize it.

I believe some don't realize, yet. I know I didn't 'til on down the line. Most likely I never would have if my mind had the ability to make the turn instead of going straight at the curve...if ya know what I mean..... What I was referring to, actually, is the almost religiousness found in the dedication to the almighty PV among the general forum. In what I'll call "general population" to openly suggest your not satisfied regardless of equipment or nic level is akin to blaspheme. Take, for instance, the "fly-by" we had several posts back when the poster jumped in at a time when maoi's are being discussed and suggested what was needed to make things right was a higher voltage mod. Ok, . No, make that !!! And he's been here for a while. Strangely, though, he's starting to hang out in the smokeless forum these days....

I believe I resemble that remark.

I hope you do. I think you do. Kind of a "I came, I saw, I conquered, I hope I regain feeling on the right side of my face" sorta crazy. Something I was afraid I'd outgrow someday. Guess not .

Kin, I began taking 1,500mg daily of GABA yesterday. Thanks for the suggestion.

Hey, TBob, I'm also interested in the effects of GABA, solely due to kin's postings, and plan on giving it a try if I have any money left after the holiday's (7 kids, 5 grandkids, inlaws, outlaws, the list goes on). After some time letting it build up in your system post your opinion or PM me. I think it would work well for me, but my job duties require me to be alert and able to make quick decisions in response to emergencies. Shouldn't effect the slacker part of the job, though .

 

[a2dcovert]

You know, it seems to me that it should be very lucrative for any one or any company to develop a smoking replacement product that actually works. Maybe they know that nicotine alone doesn't do the job on most hard core smoking addicts. Their agenda may be strictly to keep the tobacco money flowing and they have no intention of developing a viable alternative for cigarettes.

I think that the medical community believes that they have done all that can be done or they simply don't care to kill the goose that is laying golden eggs. I know that my doctor has no idea of what needs to be done to relieve my withdrawal symptoms. He still believes that I'm not getting enough nicotine. It may be that the work you guys are doing is our only hope.

Keep up the good work guys.

Kevin

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Well, all things considered, I'd say Big Pharma knows all about it. It's a win-win for them. They can sell NRT's to aid in smoking cessation, then sell us antidepressants to help us feel somewhat human again, followed by a whole slew of other drugs to ward off the evil spirits brought on by antidepressants. FDA isn't bothered by the failure rate due to the billions in tobacco tax revenues each year. Party!! The way I see it, ecigs, even with their growing popularity, aren't a threat, yet. The FDA's been stirred a little, but if (hopefully when) some manufacturer starts producing WTA, the real threat begins. I have no doubt WTA will be the "be all, end all" for those who want to stop smoking. I'd venture to say that not only will it work for most, but it'll also work quickly and permanently. Not to mention the windfall of cash to the manufacturer once word got around. Big Pharma will loathe this and the FDA's spotlight will come on. It's really all about the money. A piece of the action isn't good enough, they want it all .

 

[DVap]

Well, all things considered, I'd say Big Pharma knows all about it. It's a win-win for them. They can sell NRT's to aid in smoking cessation, then sell us antidepressants to help us feel somewhat human again, followed by a whole slew of other drugs to ward off the evil spirits brought on by antidepressants. FDA isn't bothered by the failure rate due to the billions in tobacco tax revenues each year. Party!! The way I see it, ecigs, even with their growing popularity, aren't a threat, yet. The FDA's been stirred a little, but if (hopefully when) some manufacturer starts producing WTA, the real threat begins. I have no doubt WTA will be the "be all, end all" for those who want to stop smoking. I'd venture to say that not only will it work for most, but it'll also work quickly and permanently. Not to mention the windfall of cash to the manufacturer once word got around. Big Pharma will loathe this and the FDA's spotlight will come on. It's really all about the money. A piece of the action isn't good enough, they want it all .

Vic,

The holy grail of a real tobacco taste in a vaping liquid is largely realized by WTA since it doesn't have to duplicate the tobacco throat hit. WTA is the tobacco throat hit. With just a bit of tobacco absolute mixed in, it would be the closest thing out there... and it would scratch the itch that nicotine liquid can't quite reach.

You've put your finger on precisely why I'm not cooking up a 10 kg batch of tobacco for sale as WTA. I could quite realistically clear around 10K on a batch of that size, but I'll pass on the combined wrath of BP, BT, and the FDA reacting to having their party crashed. I've joked that I should find an interested party to sell my know-how to, but doubting that will happen, I'll content myself with the proof of concept.

 

[Vaporer]

It will more than likely be bought up and buried like so many things have. Some bougus report written like others before to appease the public.
Its always been rumored that the cure for the common cold existed yrs ago. Now you are starting to see nasal sprays, ointments and such for it. It was always stated it would devistate the medical community to release it. Look how many cold products on the shelves wouldn't be needed, doctors visits, hospital charges the amount is staggering. Even to the stores that sell them.

Now you talk about a find that has an answer and the main profit causes problem, health issues....etc...... and think they'd ever let that cat out of the bag?

Conspiacy or greed? Call it what you want. The JFK files were ordered sealed for 100yrs so no one alive then would be alive when the truth was revealed. Why? Bet there's more blacked out then than readable.

Sorry to drift so far off topic. I can't see WTA ever going to the marketing public. It actually solves a problem that would cost them a fortune. Do they know it?

 

[Vaporer]

Best thing you could do DVap is put a patent on the product, or attempt to so they'd have to pay you off to shut up! That was impolite, Hush Money, for the patent application.

 

[olderthandirt]

No. No conspiracy fears at all.

As compelling as the "Proof of Concept" appears to be, I don't beleive we would no longer hear from DVap as the result of hush monies.

We'd simply no longer hear from DVap...

dum-dum-dummmmm! 8-o

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Vic,

The holy grail of a real tobacco taste in a vaping liquid is largely realized by WTA since it doesn't have to duplicate the tobacco throat hit. WTA is the tobacco throat hit. With just a bit of tobacco absolute mixed in, it would be the closest thing out there... and it would scratch the itch that nicotine liquid can't quite reach.

You've put your finger on precisely why I'm not cooking up a 10 kg batch of tobacco for sale as WTA. I could quite realistically clear around 10K on a batch of that size, but I'll pass on the combined wrath of BP, BT, and the FDA reacting to having their party crashed. I've joked that I should find an interested party to sell my know-how to, but doubting that will happen, I'll content myself with the proof of concept.

And contentment is good . There are those with the financial resources to crash the afore mentioned party and I'm sure you have the credentials to be invited to step on some toes. I think a good, well established manufacturer should step up to the plate and forge ahead. They're already selling to this market for this very purpose and I see it as wise to slip it in before the heavy hand of regulation eventually grabs hold. There's just no good reason why they shouldn't. None! Right now I think they look at this market as extra income, but with WTA it would surely become a market worth catering to and investing in. If one were to jump on it now, by the time the FDA hammer starts to swing the proof will already be in the pudding . And how would they have an argument for long term case studies when they approve new drugs today, then have to issue warnings and bans tomorrow due to mutations and deaths? If WTA can be on the market for 18 months they'll have conclusive results. And those results should be accompanied by your picture of all the nasty stuff left behind in the wake of WTA manufacturing.....

 

[TropicalBob]

I think dVap thought outside the box. Big Pharma works like this:

Chief Dude rises at the head of a long table. "Gentlemen, I want you to isolate the ingredient in tobacco smoke that addicts smokers. Then we will extract that ingredient, put it into pharmaceutical products, wean smokers off their cancer sticks, make tons of money and save the world. Get to work. Your budget is unlimited."

Some time later a door opens and a white-coated lab tech rushes in. "We've found it. We've found the addictive drug! It's .. nicotine. It hooked all the lab rats. And we can extract it and cut it to specific dosages. It's .. the Holy Grail. We'll call our products Nicotine Replacement Therapy."

"Brilliant, my son. Here's your million-dollar bonus."

That's how it works all too often. No one questions ... what if it's not ONLY nicotine. dVap did. And we have the proof that while nicotine itself might be as powerfully addictive as is claimed -- equal or worse than ....... and ...... -- it's not the only physiological player for smokers.

I don't buy most conspiracy theories. Sorry, I just don't. Money rules, and the FDA isn't about collecting money, so it could care less (although it is too buddy-buddy with Big Pharma, I admit). The point is that Big Pharma could make just as much money off legal WTA as it does NRT products.

But NRT took how long to obtain approval? How many clinical trials? For each and every delivery method? At what cost? And some of the NRTs were prescription-only at first. NRT traveled a long, expensive, legal road to market.

Mark this down: WTA WOULD FACE THE SAME FATE. It would be questioned. Issues would be raised. Tests would be demanded. There would be no quick approval. A decade or more of expensive research would be mandated, to certify facts we "know" but haven't proven. So I don't look for commercial production of WTA. But then I don't look for continued sale of unregulated e-liquid either. It's just a matter of time for the system to catch up to the reality of today's unregulated e-liquid market.

When it does, the clamps will be tightened or the dam gates lowered.

 

[Vaporer]

TB,

I don't disagree with you one bit.
When you are making fortunes, you can spend a bit to "slow and guide the process/progress".

Conspiracy? Just another word for greed on a subdued level.
Basically, who stands to gain or lose the most if we tell.

 

[olderthandirt]

And contentment is good . There are those with the financial resources to crash the afore mentioned party and I'm sure you have the credentials to be invited to step on some toes. I think a good, well established manufacturer should step up to the plate and forge ahead. They're already selling to this market for this very purpose and I see it as wise to slip it in before the heavy hand of regulation eventually grabs hold. There's just no good reason why they shouldn't. None! Right now I think they look at this market as extra income, but with WTA it would surely become a market worth catering to and investing in. If one were to jump on it now, by the time the FDA hammer starts to swing the proof will already be in the pudding . And how would they have an argument for long term case studies when they approve new drugs today, then have to issue warnings and bans tomorrow due to mutations and deaths? If WTA can be on the market for 18 months they'll have conclusive results. And those results should be accompanied by your picture of all the nasty stuff left behind in the wake of WTA manufacturing.....

Just quoted the whole thing TV cuz' that's a good argument for pushing forward!

TBob's points are valid for sure but some form of established use and market would be better than none.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Ah, government conspiracy theory is all that's kept my brain functioning above toad level for the past month or so, TBob. Don't burst my bubble, now . I have no doubt your accuracy on how the FDA sets up the hoops and potholes on the road to approval, but over the last 8 years or so FDA approval has been on the fast track. The H1N1 vaccine is only the latest and highest profile one. Like other government organizations, the FDA has also morphed. And money does make a good bedfellow. As far as the go ahead on WTA manufacture, I've the mindset shoot the would-be rapest before he violates and explain to the cops how you helped humanity later. Produce it, higher a few good lawyers and stockpile evidence to support a case. If the right lawyers, doctors and lawmakers are involved, it'll go on the FDA fast track, too .

 

[kinabaloo]

First off, though rat testing shows that nic alone is somewhat addictive, experience of vapers shows that it is quiet easy for many to cut their nic, though they could not cut their analogs. And when there is WTA, that won't be easy to cut but so what, with just about all the danger removed.

As it is so easy to make a basic e-liquid by tobacco soak, the controllers might as well sign-off normal e-liquid, and WTA.

Standard rules of commerce should be followed and standard tax; any form of extra taxation, restriction in flavors or strength (to a point, say 70mg/ml), or any form of banning would be draconian.

Restricting safer altenatives to smoking is immoral. Period.

And to those that say it is not proven: no combustion; just add PG, which is GRAS. This is as sure enough for anyone who doesn't have an ulterior agenda.

Sure, do some more testing, but do it while lives continue to be saved.