So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Wow, sorry for not crediting you, OTD! I think TV did as well, but please forgive me for the omission.

And thanks very much for the info ... snus, come to papa. I know, everyone recommends caution, start small and work up, but I was never any good at caution.

Thanks, OTD!

Rick.

Hey....rick my friend....we've been waiting. a2d is a good example of what some good Swedish snus can do for a person. You also might look into some of the Thunder Frosted mini portions, too. For 8mg portions, they pack a pretty good punch. And come on over to the Smokeless tobacco neighborhood. Great bunch of guys and gals there too and would make you feel right at home. Alot of the been there, done that crowd who've jumped through all the hoops and finally found what they need .

 

[Stubby]

And thanks very much for the info ... snus, come to papa. I know, everyone recommends caution, start small and work up, but I was never any good at caution.

Rick.

Okay, we'll let you have some thunda, but don't say you haven't been warned. It's to much for OTD and I know it's to much for me. At least get a collection of standard 8 mg portions with the order. Come on over to the smokeless tobacco section and we can all give you our recommendations so you can be completely confused and bewildered. Its great fun.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Hi Stubby. No cow tipping tonight for me, either. 11 degrees out there .

 

[Stubby]

Hi Stubby. No cow tipping tonight for me, either. 11 degrees out there .

No, the cows are in the barn and the little women locked the liquor cabinet and won't give me the keys till next New Year's Eve. I'm a few hundred miles north of you and it's below 0 here. I need some Global warming.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Just as well........you were a riot . They say global warming is all around us, we're just not paying attention .

 

[dataguru]

You guys rock.

This is the longest binge read I've ever done that involved only ONE thread. lol been reading all day!

I'm kinda bummed after reading this, I had been enjoying drinking the coolaid that vaping would replace analogs. I guess it's better to find out now that it may not totally. I think some snus is next on my list of things I have to buy. along with DIY juice, a mod, and some more atomizers.

I picked up my first kit a couple of days ago and have been vaping 24mg vanilla that came with it. I don't know whether I'm getting stoned from the nicotine or whether it's because pulling on this 901 is more like smoking a joint than a cigarette. Lots of old conditioned responses there. lol I'm still smoking a few analogs as well, but nothing like before which is VERY encouraging. I've been smoking for over 35 years now and the last few have been annoying mainly because I need it to concentrate and at work have to stop what I'm doing to either go freeze or swelter to get my fix. It seems worse nowdays. or maybe I'm just getting old and cranky. lol

I do program evaluation research for a living, and run a couple of online communities, so I've been very frustrated when lack of nicotine messes with my ability to think clearly or inhibits my ability to play nice with PITA ppl. I've been doing online stuff since the early 90s, which makes me a lot more spontaneous in my reactions. Sitting in front of a computer, I don't have to self-monitor. I can rant and ..... authentically and then take the time to rewrite it to be able to disagree without beating ppl up doing it. In person, that tends to get me in trouble as there's no time to edit, so I have to be very careful not to slip up. Being irritable from low blood levels of whatever the chemical concoction from burning tobacco does not help with that. There are seriously too many non-sentient ppl in this world.

I discovered something interesting last time I tried to quit with chantix. Initially I was doing pretty good, hardly any cravings, but then I discovered that when ppl are acting like asses, I didn't have anything to replace reaching for a cigarette to chill me out. So I gave up and started smoking again. Tried it again and the chantix side effects were too icky, to include being way too easily jerked around.

It sounds like even with the snus, I'm still going to be stuck trying to figure out how to deal with difficult situations/ppl, tho it shouldn't be as intense with decent blood levels. It's also interesting trying to reframe how I talk about it. I keep wanting to say nicotine levels, but you're right, it has to be broader than just nicotine given the analog delivery method. I think you guys have done a great job conceptually working thru a complex subject and I look forward to more of the same.

Betty

 

[sunset]

Betty, Isn't this a great thread! As it was developing a few months ago, I was hanging onto every word or I'm sure I'd be back smoking....vaping alone did not do it for me. Yet for some it does.

Vaping sure did open the door for me and as I worked with 36mg. for a month (I had snus ordered just in case because of all the great information in here).

I spent the 1st month with withdrawal symptoms, which at the time, I thought were OK because I was "getting the worst behind me"...not so, on day 30 I actually got shaking - now it's scary. They had gotten worst. I am/was a 40 year 2 pack a day smoker.

I think being female, I had the worst objections to even trying snus. Well, not that day as the choice was not go back smoking. So the snus definitely worked - immediately.

Also, I didn't want to try snus earlier because I wanted to be able to quit all tobacco products, now it may not work out that way.

So although it didn't work out the way I thought on day one - It's Working with snus and vaping for me! And I'm not smoking which is the good thing. And I'm still better off than
I was this summer smoking

Again, a lot of people do fine with just vaping, I'm just not one of them

"I'm kinda bummed after reading this, I had been enjoying drinking the coolaid that vaping would replace analogs." I understand and I've often wondered the same, if I'd knew this before I even started this route would I try? Not sure, but sure glad I did!! I'm not smoking, it's worth it and you may not even fall into the vaping/snus category.

But, the information is good to know, so you're prepared or that's how I looked at it

Good Luck and I do like this approach, so much better than smoking.

 

[olderthandirt]

Wow, sorry for not crediting you, OTD! I think TV did as well, but please forgive me for the omission...

You have been forgiven, o seeker of knowledge and nicotine. May ye blessed with the buzz o snus soon.

You guys rock.

This is the longest binge read I've ever done that involved only ONE thread. lol been reading all day!

I'm kinda bummed after reading this, I had been enjoying drinking the coolaid that vaping would replace analogs. I guess it's better to find out now that it may not totally. I think some snus is next on my list of things I have to buy. along with DIY juice, a mod, and some more atomizers.

...Being irritable from low blood levels of whatever the chemical concoction from burning tobacco does not help with that. There are seriously too many non-sentient ppl in this world.

...
It sounds like even with the snus, I'm still going to be stuck trying to figure out how to deal with difficult situations/ppl, tho it shouldn't be as intense with decent blood levels. It's also interesting trying to reframe how I talk about it. I keep wanting to say nicotine levels, but you're right, it has to be broader than just nicotine given the analog delivery method. I think you guys have done a great job conceptually working thru a complex subject and I look forward to more of the same.

Betty

Greetings Betty
Ya never know, you could well be one of those that gets off of the smokes with e-cigs only. There's a huge number that have done that very thing and some who have gone on to stop vaping as well.

I've no clue as to numbers but I come across a lot of forum members at a snus forum, snuson.com and a few at a snuff forum, snuffhouse.org, who are folks who have all taken the same road to quit. Vape to snus to snuff.

Love the bit about non-sentient ppl, more than a few of those around here...

...
I think being female, I had the worst objections to even trying snus. Well, not that day as the choice was not go back smoking. So the snus definitely worked - immediately.
...

So what have you ended up using for snus sunset? And how has the snus altered your vaping habits, if at all?

There is a thread in the Smokeless Tobacco forum, "Whats under your lip/in your nose" that tends to the off topic more than not, that's just the way we seem to be round here, but the intent is to post what your currently snussing or snuffing. Gives ideas to others as to the different flavors and scents available.

 

[a2dcovert]

I do a lot of think about why some people are able to quit easily and others not. One theory is that the length of time one has smoked and the amount of cigarettes one has smoked. The other theory is that some people become really addicted to burning tobacco and others somehow do not become addicted. I think the latter is more closer to the truth.

The e-cig will probably become the most successful smoking cessation method ever. But there will be a lot of people like us who will not be successful. Those peoply who do not discover as we have that there are suppliments that might help them be successful will become discouraged and give up the fight.

Will the course we are on ultimately lead to long term success? I'm not sure that we can all say this. Each person is different physically and emotionally. Certainly we need the governments to stay out of our way and allow us to work this out for ourselves. Right now the potential cure for our addiction is within reach of most persons. If they make the tobacco products more and more expensive and harder to acquire it will limit the success and increase the divide between the upper class and the rest of us.

 

[TropicalBob]

Betty: I think you'll find that having a snus in your mouth is like a sublingual timed-release tablet, as opposed to Goody's powder. The snus will slowly increase your blood nicotine level -- and maintain it far better and longer than cigarette smoking. You end that roller coaster ride with its peaks and valleys that you got from burning and inhaling tobacco smoke.

When the snus does its magic, you wouldn't have the urge to strike out in anger so easily.

FYI: Mini snus does just fine with me. I've used stuff up to 17mg in a portion, but do just fine on 4mg, 6mg or 8mg snus. The strong stuff is too strong, and just ups your nicotine tolerance and dependence levels. That's not good. Besides, there's no law that says you can't use both snus and e-cigs. I do.

One more note from pages ago: Stonewall is NOTHING at all but pure, powdered 100% Virginia tobacco with a binder and sweetener. Of course, it has all the alkaloids found in non-combusted tobacco. There is no "processing" that would selectively remove them and leave only 4mg of nicotine per piece.

Stonewall is my number one resource. Unlike some snus, Java Stonewall tastes great at any time of the day or night. Nothing is wasted. Nothing is spit out. Nothing is thrown away. To me, this is the perfect delivery system. It's a very inexpensive replacement for Big Pharma's lozenge.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Welcome dataguru . You should feel proud to have been one of the few with the fortitude to read through this. I'm glad you did, there's a lot of subtleties, twists, jumping around...without a full read, though, it's just impossible to get the full effect of the knowledge gained. Thank you. You could very well be in "Group X" of the vaping crowd, but hope abounds. Stick around and you'll have the full support of some of the best people on the forum .
sunset, I thought your statement: "I understand and I've often wondered the same, if I'd knew this before I even started this route would I try? Not sure, but sure glad I did!!" is right on the mark. If I'd have known at the onset I don't think I would have attempted it. I couldn't be happier that I did, now .
OTD, thanks for that link: http://www.clubsnus.com/Products/. I checked it out and it has a lot of really good info. Thanks, Friend .

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

And on another interesting note, I have 306 posts in this thread........and I can't even spell. Ok, so I'm a little bored....

 

[TropicalBob]

OK, back to MAO. I remember the very first findings of Dr. Murray Laugesen of Health New Zealand. He's a respected tobacco researcher paid by Ruyan to test their products. In his very first tests, he found undesirable chemicals he attributed to flavoring components, particularly tobacco extracts. In December 2007, Ruyan stopped using tobacco extracts.

It appears the tobacco extracts are WTA. It also appears they create undesirable chemicals in the vapor, as we know combusting tobacco does. So I went back and pulled some relevant quotes from Laugesen's research, along with a paragraph from a New Scientist article. The bottom line to me is: We do not get full satisfaction from e-smoking -- I certainly do not. But when we add a tobacco product, such as snus or nasal snuff, we get those missing alkaloids and improve our satisfaction.

Here are some quotes:

MAO inhibitor compounds (such as harman and norharman) in tobacco smoke tend to potentiate the effect of the nicotine. If this proves to be a strong factor, then the nicotine-only e-cigarette will be much less addictive than smoking tobacco cigarettes. Even if some become addicted to nicotine through the e-cigarette, this does not increase their risk of cancer, heart or lung disease, or of early death.

The cartridge liquid no longer uses tobacco extract (Appendix 1). Monoamine oxidase (MAO) enzyme in blood platelets is strongly inhibited by tobacco smoke extract but the cartridge liquid had no such effect. MAO has been regarded as a potentiator of the reinforcing (addictive) effects of nicotine, but in the case of the e-cigarette, any nicotine effect would appear to be due to nicotine alone.

Results. Monoamine oxidase (MAO) enzymes both A and B, were strongly inhibited by tobacco smoke extracts but the cartridge liquid alone had no such effect.

Conclusion. The Ruyan E-cigarette cartridge liquid does not behave like a tobacco extract. The absence of a MAO inhibitor effect means the e-cigarette has no detectable addictive potential beyond that of nicotine alone.

Marcus Munafo, a researcher on the influences of addictive behaviour at the University of Bristol, UK, suspects that part of the problem is down to the other chemicals present in real cigarettes. Although nicotine is the primary addictive component of tobacco, there are other components in the smoke that enhance nicotine's addictive potential. The brain mechanisms behind this are unclear but animal studies suggest that chemicals in smoke other than nicotine inhibit up to 40 per cent of the activity of an enzyme called monoamine oxidase. Nicotine prompts the release of the neurotransmitter dopamine, whose action in the brain is linked to the pleasurable effects of smoking. It has been suggested that MAO inhibition might decrease the re-uptake of dopamine, giving genuine cigarettes a double-whammy effect. - from New Scientist

This might help us understand further the "what's missing" problem.

 

[a2dcovert]

Thanks for the insite TB. Looks like you guys have been on the right track all along. I wonder if the WTA's were left in the eLiquid would we get a better satisfaction? Or are the combinations of the eLiquid along with the snus a better option for us?

 

[olderthandirt]

Indeed T Bob, seems to support and reinforce all the speculation and theorizing we've been about here.

Wonder just what is meant by "tobacco extract". That the quotes say it is no longer used, where is the nicotine coming from if not a tobacco extract...

 

[exogenesis]

Perhaps we could get DVap to send him a sample of his WTA to test for MAOI effects.

40% inhibition does seem an incredibly strong effect from a small amount of smoke.

 

[a2dcovert]

Or maybe DVap could get the receipe for the original "tobacco extract"?

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Well TBob, I guess we call that "all in a nut shell". Though we have a lot of info contained in this thread to back-up Dr. Murray Laugesen's findings, it's a good summary that should have a prominant posting around here for current and future "what's missing" searchers. So I take it the original e-liquid was a WTA liquid. What a shame they changed it. Thanks for all the research, TB .

olderthandirt[/B];884082]

Wonder just what is meant by "tobacco extract". quote]
I wonder the same thing. Maybe along the lines of DVap's WTA? Surely not the extracts used for flavoring.?.

exogenesis[/B];884117]

40% inhibition does seem an incredibly strong effect from a small amount of smoke.[/quote]
Oh, how loved those Pall Mall's.

 

[exogenesis]

Suspect that if original e-liquid was really like WTA, they might
have changed to pure nic. cos of the nitrosamines are probably in there as well
(? maybe DVap can confirm that ?)

Pall Mall, phooey, capstans & gauloise were a mans smoke
actually the latter made me feel like retching

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Suspect that if original e-liquid was really like WTA, they might
have changed to pure nic. cos of the nitrosamines are also in there as well
(?, maybe DVap can confirm or deny that ?)

Pall Mall, phooey, capstans & gauloise were a mans smoke
actually the latter made me feel like retching

That's the way I figure it. A little forward think about the "anti-brigade". Capstans & Gauloise? What's that? And I'll have you know Pall Mall uses the finest horse dung smokeable...... Shouldn't you be in a lab?...where'd I put those keys, again....Martha, exo's loose again...