Hi @ashharmon; and welcome to ECF!
With all your diligent research, you probably already know this (but I'm going to say it anyway because I have not yet seen it stated in this thread), but replicating commercial recipes (cloning) is probably the most difficult thing to do in DIY. You are diving directly into the deepest end of the DIY pool... I can imagine you are frustrated.
Cloning is fraught with challenges. Identifying the flavor manufacturer(s). Identifying the specific flavor concentrates. Identifying concentrate percentages.
Then there is the challenge of how one ingredient interacts with the next. For example, compare Herbs de p
Provence and a classic Italian herb blend; the ingredients are very similar, but depending on ratios and secondary accent notes, they end up tasting very different. DIY is not really any different. Too much, too little, or the wrong concentrate; and the recipe will go in completely different directions.
And, that is assuming the commercial liquid is being made with ingredients we have access to. There are concentrate manufactures, who do not sell retail products. They only sell large scale bulk orders. They can also custom create a concentrate, or even complete blend, that is a singular "one-off" product for a single client. This can make a "true" clone virtually impossible.
I say that, not to discourage you any further, but to maybe help you set more realistic expectations/goals. It can often be less challenging to create something "like," or "similar to," a commercial offering; than it is to exactly replicate it.
What is it you like about a particular commercial e-liquid? What flavor(s) are standing out to you? How? Why? How would you describe it? Giving some careful thought/analysis can help you set more realistic goals for what you want to create. The more specific, precise, descriptive you can be; the more likely you can find a suitable ingredient to achieve your desired result.
Even then it is going to require time and patience. Trial and error. If the reward (savings, personal satisfaction, a new hobby) is not worth the effort, then maybe DIY cloning is not for you... at least right now.
Instead, maybe taking some of the more important characteristics of the commercial e-liquid you like, and identifying a single one-shot blend, or simple combination of concentrates that meets your criteria, is a better way to go. Don't focus on it being "just like blank." Who knows; maybe you will find something even better!
Let's take the Butter Brew (Yami Vapor) you mentioned as an example. I have no idea what it is and have never vaped it. Research lead me to VaporDNA. Butterscotch is all that comes up in the official description. Reading the review section, I learn a little more: cream soda, butterscotch, creamy, buttery, thick, rich, and some (apparently fictitious harry Potter) beverage called Butter Beer. So now I research butter beer. Evidently this really exists; at least at Universal Studios. Though the exact ingredients aren't disclosed, it appears basic ingredients are cream soda, ice cream, whipped cream, and butterscotch syrup.
If you have some of the real stuff, vape on it, and consider: what about the above descriptions can you taste? What is most prominent? What are more subtle/secondary? What are you tasting that isn't in the descriptions? Write down your observations.
Now you have a choice:
1. You can start from scratch.
2. You can start with someone else's efforts; and tweak to your own liking.
If you have (as you said) "nearly every flavor ever made," and you have a good understanding of what each one has to offer, and how they differ; building from scratch may be the way to go. Start with the base/primary flavor note... get it correct; then move on to the next most prominent note... get it correct, AND working with the first note; then the next... etc., etc. Build in layers. Don't try to do it all at once... this rarely works.
If you haven't spent much/any time working with your individual ingredients, and it is going to be basically grasping in the dark; maybe starting with a well reviewed, and described recipe, is the smarter choice.
Start with reasonable expectations; this is not likely going to be a case of "win," or "fail." More likely, it is going to be more along the lines of: "close," "kinda-sorta", "not really," or "not even remotely the same." Referring to your previous notes: What is right about it? What is wrong? Does it seem like it may be the right flavor concentrates, and just not the right percentages? Or, are the concentrates all together wrong (is it a butterscotch hard candy taste when you are wanting more of a butterscotch syrup flavor)?
Here are a few general DIY tips I found helpful:
Make only ONE adjustment at a time. If one starts making multiple changes (percentages, ingredients), it is almost impossible to isolate what each change is actually doing, and whether it is helping, or hurting, the overall goal. (This goes for hardware changes too... different hardware = different taste)
Don't neglect sweeteners. "Sweet" is one of the easiest tastes to perceive... even with horribly abused taste buds. Because of this, many commercial e-liquids use lots of sweeteners. Many DIYers find they like less and less sweet in their mixes, as their taste buds recover; and tend to reduce, or even completely remove them, from their recipes. Just because they no longer need/want sweeteners; doesn't mean you don't want/need them.
Sweeteners can have an impact on a recipe. They can mute flavors (requiring more, or different concentrates), soften sharp notes, thicken mouthfeel. It is often more helpful to leave the sweetener(s) for last. Then, start low, and only add as needed. Once the "sweet" note is right it may be necessary to go back and adjust (and on rare occasions; replace), one or more flavors... it's all a balancing act.
Don't neglect what time may do for/to a recipe. The simple passage of time can have a significant impact on haw a mixture tastes. Don't throw out (or repurpose) your test mixes (esp. while you are creating). Instead, make sure they are labeled (so you know what is in them, and when they were made), and revisit them from time to time. This can be useful when you hit a creative wall. Even if they are still not 100% "there," they can reveal a missing "it," that you have been searching for. (Looking at the basic Butter Brew descriptions; I would not be surprised if this didn't need two weeks of aging before all the flavors matured.)
If you are impatient, like me, one can shorten the total timeline required by making several test batches, with one single different adjustment in each, all at the same time. Then test separately. If the adjustment is a fail; try something else. For the tests that show promise; the single tests may be combined to see if the cumulative result is pleasing... or, if one change is going to conflict with the other (one benefit of doing this; is there is little to no additional aging required).
Try to make informed choices. This is still not much more than wild-a**ed guessing, but I do a couple of things to move the needle a bit more in my favor:
For flavor concentrates:
- research multiple vendors that display customer comments/reviews (Bull City Flavors, e-cig express, and Nicotine River, are some of my starting points).
- E-Liquid Recipes, .................., and Reddit, can also be informative.
- I pay more attention to the comments and reviews than I do manufacturer/vendor descriptions. Mfg./vendors are more interested in sales vs. accuracy.
- Because I know taste is so subjective; I look for consensus/patterns. If twenty people describe a concentrate as "tastes like candied fruit," and only two say "the most realistic flesh fruit ever," I am betting that this will more likely be candy-like to me. It is not always the case; but it is more often than than not.
- Fewer reviews don't mean it is bad; it just means it is more of a gamble. The converse is true to; even hundreds of "best concentrate ever!" reviews, does not guarantee a winner for me... or my intended application.
- Remember that single-reviewer sources, like Wayne Walker's FlavorBook, is still only one person's perception. Usefulness depends on how similar your palate is to the reviewer. (This can be said of any individual review; no matter the author's skill and/or reputation... and why I look more for consensus.)
For choosing recipes:
Based on a very brief 5 minute search of only two sites, if I were to tackle the butter beer, I would probably start with one of these two:
- I try to weigh recipes by how detailed (thought out, described) the author is about his/her creation. Things like what there intent was, why they chose particular ingredients, and what they think of the end result; all give me more confidence in the "purposefulness" of the creation, and the likelihood of it succeeding. (Again; no guarantee, but more winners than losers... or at least something I can work with.)
- Same for recipe comments/reviews. I will consider more carefully, the review that says "why" it is good/bad, than the generic like/didn't like comments. It doesn't invalidate those opinions; but it provides me more information I might be able to apply to my own judgement.
- I start, by looking at the highest, most reviewed recipes (Doesn't mean I will mix them; I just start my research there).
- (IMO) Recipes with only one rating are rated by the creator only.
- (IMO) Recipes with NO rating are only a work in progress, or the author didn't care for it enough to bother rating it. I tend to ignore these unless I am desperate.
1. From All The Flavors: Butter Beer by SlashaLO
or
2. From E-liquid Recipes (ELR): Butterbeer by Ken O'Where (sorry; ECF does not permit ELR links)
Thank you! When i say "clone" i say it, and probably many other words or phrases loosely ....i have never even TRIED half the "originals" out there to compare them to! so by my standards, a good vape is a good vape, or....its just not, no matter how close it may or may not be to its predecessor. I started diy within the first month of vaping, not sure how it happened bc it was years ago ....guess ive always been a bargain shopper! haha but you know when the specific brand is posted (bc on some smaller sites just a random flavor is listed) i have always used that specific type. I know one of the biggest things that I DO like and feel must be added to almost all of MY juices is sweetener, but that is a new thing (within the last 2 weeks) and that is mostly bc i a.) vape all day long and do this instead of eating myself out of house and home and b.) this makes my juices taste more like commercial blends, which i like.
But i cant seem to get really strong FLAVOR. its like ive tried adding more, adding less, adding accent flavors to make the base flavor "pop" and I just don't think i'll ever be able to get the kind of flavor that every other DIYer seems to get. I was vaping 70/30ish blends but switched to much closer to 50/50 thinking this might be partly to blame. And maybe it helped a little, I'm not sure. I don't really care for the way some tanks hit so i tend to stay with my pretty simple coil and tank setup. I switched to a smoother nic so i wouldn't have as much flavor alteration but I'm just not sure what I'm doing wrong. you would think that even the single recipe mixes i have tried, much less the heavy duty 13 flavor recipes....somewhere along the line i would have found one that seemed to actually have some decent (here in mean in terms of strength/saturation) flavor!!
): What (generally speaking) flavors do you like, or want, to vape? Do you like tobacco flavors? Fruits? Candies? creams/custards? Bakeries? Mints? Brand name of commercial juices wouldn't mean a thing to me, but some ideas of what have been enjoyable vapes for you in the past, could help us steer you toward more useful ingredients and recipes. What, if you can put it into words, makes a juice "good" to you? Is it sweetness? A thick mouthfeel? What else? What is missing, from your unsuccessful DIY attempts, compared to commercial liquids you have liked?
I'll also work on some copy/paste to share my "successful" and not so much recipes. Thanks to all for the response, you've been amazing!!
