So What's the verdict? WTA's in E Juice or Not?

[hittman]

John, thanks for the link to that thread. It is definitely worth while reading. I do have one comment on that thread. Snus is not "chew in a pouch so you don't get it in your teeth". The tobacco in snus is processed differently than American chew/dip and is much safer. Swedish snus has to meet certain levels of TSNA's or it cannot be sold. There is no such restriction on chew/dip that I am aware of. Here's a short article on snuscentral that gives a few TSNA levels of some chews and snus.REDUCED HARM TOBACCO: Swedish Snus versus American Snus

 

[John Phoenix]

I buy the one argument by the poster on the link.
80% of our addiction is Nic.
So to me, if we can get over the 80%, the remainder is a cake walk!

I agree mostly. I myself did not need any extra stuff to replace the WTA's but my friends in the link above did.. and they had been using e-cigs for months.. they just could not get a handle on it. It seems to be just a small percentage of folks who have this problem.

 

[John Phoenix]

John, thanks for the link to that thread. It is definitely worth while reading. I do have one comment on that thread. Snus is not "chew in a pouch so you don't get it in your teeth". The tobacco in snus is processed differently than American chew/dip and is much safer. Swedish snus has to meet certain levels of TSNA's or it cannot be sold. There is no such restriction on chew/dip that I am aware of. Here's a short article on snuscentral that gives a few TSNA levels of some chews and snus.REDUCED HARM TOBACCO: Swedish Snus versus American Snus

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[stalebird]

Wow, that thread would make anyone think they're going to go crazy by not having a real cigarette "terrible depression, loss of hope"... sounds like an anti-depressent commercial. So, those people who quit cold turkey must have brains of steel. ... .. ..

 

[cookiebun]

Did you read this particular blog, parts 1 and 2? Madame Psychosis Summary

Edit: and 3...

That was a fascinating read. Thanks very much for posting the link.

Edit.
I've found that since I gave up analogs I am much calmer and patient. I think there must have been something in the analogs that caused my level of tension, anxiety and frustration to climb throughout the day. I'm surprised I was never asked not to come back to any of the stores where I shop for being so .....y.
Since I've switched to vaping I feel SO MUCH better mentally and people around me have noticed that and commented about it.
There was something in those other 5 to 10% alkaloids that really didn't agree with me.

 

[wrigleyvillain]

Wow, that thread would make anyone think they're going to go crazy by not having a real cigarette "terrible depression, loss of hope"... sounds like an anti-depressent commercial. So, those people who quit cold turkey must have brains of steel. ... .. ..

Yes but-and I hate to diminish their willpower and accomplishment as it is major-it has been plainly obvious to me for over 20 years that some people just don't get as addicted to nicotine/cigs as others both physically and otherwise. Must be brain chemistry and such. And it's not just cigarettes of course that you can say this about but they are pretty much the most notable due to the severe physical dependence that most regular users develop. As I love to point out only opiates can compare in this regard.

Im watching this thread and subject with interest.

 

[cowfodder]

I know of one vendor with WTA juices, and I'm pretty happy with them. They are great for when I'm around a bunch of smokers for curbing the craving to bum one and light up. His ordering process is a PITA, but he makes some of the best juices, WTA or not< that I have tried yet.
Vapelicious « Custom e-Liquid Shop & Flavor Science Blog

 

[John Phoenix]

I know of one vendor with WTA juices, and I'm pretty happy with them. They are great for when I'm around a bunch of smokers for curbing the craving to bum one and light up. His ordering process is a PITA, but he makes some of the best juices, WTA or not< that I have tried yet.
Vapelicious « Custom e-Liquid Shop & Flavor Science Blog

Help me out here.. What am I missing? I'm looking at The link you posted and I don't see anything about "whole tobacco alkaloids" - meaning other active ingredient alkaloids found in tobacco other than nicotine.

 

[JD1]

Ya cannot get adequate vitamins or minerals in e-liquid to supply any where near the RDA requirements . It's impossible in the amount of e-liquid, since 80%+ is PG or VG, which leaves little room for anything worth considering.

Done a lot of digging and math on the subject exploring it. A few companies are making claims....none releas the amount put in the juice since they know it's insanely low and stupid.

Pig

I don't mean adding them to the e-liquid. I mean getting our additional elements from food primarily, but when we can't or won't get ourselves on a good diet, then supplement it. Just as beans and rice can produce essential amino acids for folks with low or no meat, fish oil can help if we're not getting enough sunshine. It's why we put iodine in salt, vitamins in bleached (white) bread, that sort of thing.

 

[srrandom]

I know of one vendor with WTA juices, and I'm pretty happy with them. They are great for when I'm around a bunch of smokers for curbing the craving to bum one and light up. His ordering process is a PITA, but he makes some of the best juices, WTA or not< that I have tried yet.
Vapelicious « Custom e-Liquid Shop & Flavor Science Blog

Thanks for the link cowfodder it looks like a great shop. I wasn't able the find the Whole Tobacco Alkaloid liquid though- could you send me a link?

 

[cowfodder]

Oops, forgot the most important part. He doesn't advertise the WTA stuff yet, but if you send him a message he can give you a price quote with them. He's a really cool guy that's just starting out. We had probably 15 emails back and forth before my order was processed just so he could make sure he was getting me exactly what I wanted.

From my EVO to your eyeballs!

 

[srrandom]

Thank you!

 

[wrigleyvillain]

Roger, thanks.

 

[Halsey]

So, those people who quit cold turkey must have brains of steel. ... .. ..

Yes but-and I hate to diminish their willpower and accomplishment as it is major-it has been plainly obvious to me for over 20 years that some people just don't get as addicted to nicotine/cigs as others both physically and otherwise. Must be brain chemistry and such. And it's not just cigarettes of course that you can say this about but they are pretty much the most notable due to the severe physical dependence that most regular users develop. As I love to point out only opiates can compare in this regard.

First, great reading on the blog posts, and I agree, trying to read everything DVap is impossible, but damn it's enlightening to try, still plowing through 'an interest in determining nicotine content'.

As to the addiction, I think it was a post by mistressnomad that first turned me on the fact that cigs contain MAOIs among other things. After a ton of bouncing around the net, reading studies I only half understand, it seems a cigarette contains an anti depressant, possible anti psychotic cocktail of drugs that would cost you hundreds of dollars with a psychologist and a pill box full of daily meds to match any other way.

The point is, my theory currently is there are at least two distinct groups addicted to smoking. Those that started of with a fairly 'normal' brain chemistry, and those for whom cigarettes 'fixed' something that wasn't quite right to begin with. The first group quits, and their brain needs to remember how it functioned before the crutch was there, for the second it's like taking the crutches away from a one legged man, he can't remember how to walk without them, he never could.

Like wrigleyvillain said, not to take anything away from anyone who has quit cold turkey, I honestly believe the first group are those that quit cold turkey and say, something along the lines of "Sure the first week was hell, but then it got easier, and now it's no problem". The second are the ones that try and quit with or without NRTs or other aids and find themselves slipping into depression, etc. and turning right back to cigarettes.

It is interesting to see that there are people working to some extent on being able to perhaps recreate the whole cocktail so to speak though.

Okay, I should quit rambling now

 

[DVap]

That was a fascinating read. Thanks very much for posting the link.

Edit.
I've found that since I gave up analogs I am much calmer and patient. I think there must have been something in the analogs that caused my level of tension, anxiety and frustration to climb throughout the day. I'm surprised I was never asked not to come back to any of the stores where I shop for being so .....y.
Since I've switched to vaping I feel SO MUCH better mentally and people around me have noticed that and commented about it.
There was something in those other 5 to 10% alkaloids that really didn't agree with me.

You make a fine point here. Each of us has their own unique brain chemistry. The issues can be quite often confused simply because it can be hard to find agreement when each of us experiences tobacco in our own unique way.

 

[DVap]

Here's what I get from a quick browse through the Vapelicious website:

The sort of details that my eye is trained to look for are not really present on the website, so I can't evaluate such details as nicotine sourcing, quality control, laboratory facilities (if you're making as many flavors as he mentions, you'd better not be doing it in your garage!).

The proprietor doesn't make any claims that are ridiculous on the surface. Whether or not he succeeds will probably depend on his ability to deliver the product quality he claims.

If he's "for real", he has room to carve himself out a spot in the market, otherwise, it's just talk.

As for the claim that he's developed a WTA eliquid, it would be quite nice to learn that this is true. I'm inclined to wait for the Vapelicious proprietor to announce himself that he's producing WTA eliquid rather than rely on a 2nd hand account. As a chemist with a quarter century of experience, and having myself developed a procedure for isolating alkaloids from tobacco, I can say that producing WTA is hard work. The question that I ask myself is this, "Is he a chemist, or does he have a chemist on staff?" I would expect it to require no less than a competent chemist to successfully produce a purified WTA eliquid. This is not to say that the work done by tceight to come up with a kitchen WTA recipe is worthless. It is what it is and tceight acknowledges the limitations of his method in relation to producing a pure product.

WTA, properly done, produces a mixture of alkaloids and only alkaloids derived from whole tobacco. All else from the tobacco is absent. If the Vapelicious proprietor is indeed claiming to be producing WTA, he's welcome to get in touch with me for a confidential chat on his process. I vape my own WTA because I trust that I know what I'm doing, and that trust comes from my experience and knowledge. If he's for real, I'll be his biggest fan, otherwise, I'll be inclined to not recommend his WTA product, as the last thing I'd want to vape is WTA done badly.

 

[hittman]

I don't know the details of making the WTA but do know the taste of it. Like Dvap said I also would not want to vape WTA done badly. I would think that there might be some health risks to the user if it was not done properly.

Halsey, I really enjoyed the analogy you gave on the two types of smokers with the crutches and one legged man.

 

[wrigleyvillain]

You make a fine point here. Each of us has their own unique brain chemistry. The issues can be quite often confused simply because it can be hard to find agreement when each of us experiences tobacco in our own unique way.

Very well put.

 

[cowfodder]

Here's what I get from a quick browse through the Vapelicious website:

The sort of details that my eye is trained to look for are not really present on the website, so I can't evaluate such details as nicotine sourcing, quality control, laboratory facilities (if you're making as many flavors as he mentions, you'd better not be doing it in your garage!).

The proprietor doesn't make any claims that are ridiculous on the surface. Whether or not he succeeds will probably depend on his ability to deliver the product quality he claims.

If he's "for real", he has room to carve himself out a spot in the market, otherwise, it's just talk.

As for the claim that he's developed a WTA eliquid, it would be quite nice to learn that this is true. I'm inclined to wait for the Vapelicious proprietor to announce himself that he's producing WTA eliquid rather than rely on a 2nd hand account. As a chemist with a quarter century of experience, and having myself developed a procedure for isolating alkaloids from tobacco, I can say that producing WTA is hard work. The question that I ask myself is this, "Is he a chemist, or does he have a chemist on staff?" I would expect it to require no less than a competent chemist to successfully produce a purified WTA eliquid. This is not to say that the work done by tceight to come up with a kitchen WTA recipe is worthless. It is what it is and tceight acknowledges the limitations of his method in relation to producing a pure product.

WTA, properly done, produces a mixture of alkaloids and only alkaloids derived from whole tobacco. All else from the tobacco is absent. If the Vapelicious proprietor is indeed claiming to be producing WTA, he's welcome to get in touch with me for a confidential chat on his process. I vape my own WTA because I trust that I know what I'm doing, and that trust comes from my experience and knowledge. If he's for real, I'll be his biggest fan, otherwise, I'll be inclined to not recommend his WTA product, as the last thing I'd want to vape is WTA done badly.

I can understand the apprehension, but from what I can tell so far he's legit. As far as his sources, we discussed that in an email, but I seem to have deleted it. I'll see if I can recover it, but from what I remember I think he said he has a friend who is an organic chemist that he got to do the extractions for him, as well as a clean room. He was very open in my dealing with him, so you may just try emailing and asking him.

 

[Tendril]

WTA, properly done, produces a mixture of alkaloids and only alkaloids derived from whole tobacco

How important is this? I ask this question both 1.) are analogs not sufficient and 2.) do they really need to be sourced from tobacco? Say for example we just want to add an MAOI. I've experimented with adding harmine to e-juice but I would need more subjects than myself to comment on its efficacy satisfying WTA cravings. Harmine is present in tobacco, but I'm not going to take the time to use it as a source when it's available for sale already isolated (you local laws may vary).

The large question I see when adding tobacco's alkaloids other than nicotine is 1.) the efficiency of their delivery and 2.) their natural quantities relative to nicotine.

Harmine is a relatively safe MAOI but it isn't something I would feel comfortable dispensing at unregarded doses