So What's the verdict? WTA's in E Juice or Not?

[DVap]

I just skimmed that thread quickly but maybe I will show up and make some posts next week... You can pass this info on to them for me if you want though:

The WTA is made by a trained chemist. The process is proprietary so I don't plan on sharing it with anyone. There are factors outside of the extraction process that are still being fine tuned, for instance scaling up production to meet industry-wide demand; therefore I haven't gone through rigorous testing for things like TSNA's yet. I expect the product to at least meet the GothiaTek standards (for snus) if not to be eligible for some sort of "reduced exposure" or "modified risk" classification, though the FDA has yet to set guidelines on these. Eventually I will post the results of testing for the 44 "Hoffman analytes" and/or other possible carcinogens listed by IARC. If I had to guess the safety of using WTA eliquid is somewhere in between vaping alone and vaping + using snus.

The process is supercritical CO2 extraction (I'm 95% certain of this), which is incidentally the way I'd do it if I were going into business. It carries some persuasive advantages over more traditional extraction techniques.

He appears to be aware of some of the ways one might look at the safety of the product, example the "Hoffman List" which covers some organic and inorganic components of cigarette smoke.

The thing I can't get from Ethan's response is whether his WTA will be a tobacco extract or a WTA isolate. The two are in some ways very similar (They both would contain the WTA's) and in some ways very different (an isolate eliminates non alkaloidal co-extracted materials, whereas an extract would not). A supercritical fluid extraction can be "fine-tuned" via varying the pressure of the SCF at or above around 80 atmospheres, so I suspect Ethan will be having the chemist working with him looking at fine tunings of the process to recover alkaloids preferential over non-alkaloidal co-extractants if such is possible. Still, to achieve an isolate, it requires some good old fashioned separation chemistry. I would prefer to see the product being an alkaloid isolate as this would contain a far smaller chemical soup than simply a tobacco extract.

Economically, an extract would be far easier to produce and mix (FAR less work) and would probably have a very tobacco-ish flavor, and I agree with Ethan that the safety would be between that of smoking and snus. Just where on the in-between scale, I can't say. On the other hand, an alkaloid isolate would also sit between smoking and snus on the safety scale, but likely far more toward the snus end of the scale than the smoking end of the scale. Of course, the isolate would not have the tobacco flavor of an extract, but hittman, myself, and a few others will say that the taste of the isolate alone in just PG/VG with nothing else does feel like a cigarette in the throat, it's got that tobacco alkaloid "tickle".

At any rate, first glance at Ethan's response would suggest he's for real, and we'll look forward to seeing what he comes up with. I'm encouraged!
(But if he bills himself as the creator of the concept, I'll take him for a scrape over the coals! WTA, my baby!)

 

[John Phoenix]

I'm a bit surprised that Bob questioned whether ecigs deliver the nicotine.

I'm Not. Bob implied things about e-cigs that are not true. Bob would have one believe that all e-cig smokers fail to quit with e-cigs because they need these WTA's. Yet, as demonstrated time and again on these forums, it is only a small number of people who have this problem. He's trying to give the impression that e-cigs won't work without his CigRX product.

If your one of these people, granted CigRX may help. They are not even using the real alkaloids. They are using herbs that simulate what they believe the alkaloids do.

In this video at 6:15 Bob talks about using Whole Tobacco Alkaloids in his Dura C e-cig. Bob does not say where he gets this WAT e-liquid.

 

[hittman]

John I too was surprised at that statement also by TropicalBob. I read the entire " are we getting it" thread and do remember him talking about having to lay down after vaping the 48mg WTA. I am not sure why TB made that statement. I do have to agree with you John that from what people say here on the forum that many are able to quit with ecigs alone. I have always considered people like myself who need the WTA's to function properly as the minority.

 

[DVap]

John, I believe Bob made that comment at 6:40.

I sent him the 48 mg some time back. Generally, I would never make WTA at levels above 30 mg, but as far as tobacco and such, Bob is a "professional", as I enjoy calling him in teasing.

Also, while the yerba mate in CigRX is a herbal, the anatabine in CigRX most definitely is one of the several minor alkaloids in tobacco. There is nicotine, then several minor alkaloids (nornicotine, anatabine, anabasine, cotinine, myosmine), and a host of trace alkaloids.

 

[DVap]

Hitt,

From my experience with Bob, he knows about the whole array of issues and how each of us is different.

I think his perspective as a "lifer" slave to cigarettes and his own experience colors his outlook and focus such that he speaks more directly to folks like himself who once had given up on the thought of ever getting off cigarettes.

 

[John Phoenix]

John, I believe Bob made that comment at 6:40.

I sent him the 48 mg some time back. Generally, I would never make WTA at levels above 30 mg, but as far as tobacco and such, Bob is a "professional", as I enjoy calling him in teasing.

Also, while the yerba mate in CigRX is a herbal, the anatabine in CigRX most definitely is one of the several minor alkaloids in tobacco. There is nicotine, then several minor alkaloids (nornicotine, anatabine, anabasine, cotinine, myosmine), and a host of trace alkaloids.

Yeah he made the comment at 6:40 but he starts the segment with that e-cig at around 6:15, that's why I used that number.

So you are the chemist friend Bob refers to in this video?



In this video Bob talks about soaking your own tobacco products in your PG based Nicotine and VG and then vaping them to get the full cigarette flavor. Bob seems to imply that this also delivers the effects of the WTA's.

Is that really as easy as it is? If so, why are so many tobacco flavored e-liquids crappy tasting?

Bob talks about the WTA's this chemist friend extracted for him. He says they do deliver exactly all the feelings you get from smoking a cigarette. I would try this. Where can I get the same bottles of WTA Bob uses?

If the bottles are not for sale anywhere, how close can you get to this full tobacco alkaloid effect by soaking the tobacco like he suggests?

 

[DVap]

I'm the chemist friend Bob was speaking of.

I neither market nor sell the stuff. Bob was one of the handful of individuals who I approached when looking for volunteers for whom nicotine liquid did not do the trick. I was interested in testing my belief that WTA liquid could provide these folks relief that nicotine liquid couldn't.

In short, it worked.

The entire thread surrounding the testing and results is in the nicotine subforum... it's quite huge.

The 48 mg liquid was something I sent to Bob after the test (which used a level of 30 mg WTA). I knew he could handle it, and I also knew he was an effective advocate to help get the word out. Since he works very hard to stay off cigarettes, I really wanted to show him something that could put even his demons to bed.

The snus soak alone likely is better for some flavor than significant WTA levels.

 

[John Phoenix]

The snus soak alone likely is better for some flavor than significant WTA levels.

Thank you for the answer. Based on your knowledge is there any where to purchase WTA e-liquig that you know of that you would recommend?

I did come across a thread back from 09 and you said you were working on an easier way to extract the WTA's. My impression was that this would be something anyone could do because that's what the guy who made the thread was trying to do - share an easy way to get the flavor and wta's out of tobacco.

How's your research coming with that?

The Bob video is kinda like a tease. It tells us we could get more satisfaction from adding wta's to our e-liquid yet it's nearly impossible for us to get our hands on.

 

[DVap]

Thank you for the answer. Based on your knowledge is there any where to purchase WTA e-liquig that you know of that you would recommend?

I did come across a thread back from 09 and you said you were working on an easier way to extract the WTA's. My impression was that this would be something anyone could do because that's what the guy who made the thread was trying to do - share an easy way to get the flavor and wta's out of tobacco.

How's your research coming with that?

The Bob video is kinda like a tease. It tells us we could get more satisfaction from adding wta's to our e-liquid yet it's nearly impossible for us to get our hands on.

There really was no easier way.. it all came back to safety and the fact that the mechanics of doing the work requires expertise that can't be explained easily or effectively. There has been some recent attempts by some non-chemists on the forum to produce a "kitchen version" of WTA. They seem to have a degree of success, however, as I've cautioned them, the strength and purity of their product is a bit of an unknown. Unless the guy behind vapelicious.com comes out with a WTA liquid (and it sounds like he might be planning it), the only practical way for most to get the WTA experience without smoking is via Swedish Snus or snuff type products. I prefer the Swedish Snus approach since the tocacco used by the Swedish manufacturers is pasteurized to food grade and specially cured to minimize production of likely carcinogenic tobacco specific nitrosamines (TSNA's).

P.S. Thanks for going back and plodding through the old threads. Many folks won't invest the work, leaving me to re-explain time and again.

 

[John Phoenix]

Thanks again Dvap...

I am waiting on a reply from the guy at vapilicious. On his website he has this thing saying if you purchase 25 dollars worth of flavors or be in the first 25 to "Like" his Facebook page ( I was #15) he will send them a free sample. So I sent him a comment telling him that I was # 15 and I would like to try a sample of his WTA liquid. I'll let ya know if he responds or even honors his agreement. ( I saved copies of the Facebook page as proof)

The Likes are at 15 now so you have time to ask time for a sample if you want to try or test one. Just log into your his page with your Facebook account and choose the Like button. Would you be able to test his liquid and let us know what you think?

I suppose there are no guarantees he will offer me a sample of the WTA liquid but he just said "a sample", he didn't say a sample of what. Vapelicious Blog « Vape Store & DIY Flavor Blog

Pasteurizing tobacco. Hmm Well I guess it's o.k. for tobacco but I run from anything pasteurized as a rule. For milk, maybe on a slim chance I'll let that stand. For orange juice, No way. Turns out pasteurization kills enzymes that help provide the helpful life giving substances our bodies need. Anytime you heat living foods to over 110 degrees you do more harm then good. There just isn't any good reason to pasteurized orange juice. - Sorry that was neither here nor there.

 

[ShannonA]

I'm Not. Bob implied things about e-cigs that are not true. Bob would have one believe that all e-cig smokers fail to quit with e-cigs because they need these WTA's. Yet, as demonstrated time and again on these forums, it is only a small number of people who have this problem. He's trying to give the impression that e-cigs won't work without his CigRX product.

If your one of these people, granted CigRX may help. They are not even using the real alkaloids. They are using herbs that simulate what they believe the alkaloids do.

In this video at 6:15 Bob talks about using Whole Tobacco Alkaloids in his Dura C e-cig. Bob does not say where he gets this WAT e-liquid.

I got the impression he was implying they wouldn't work with it either and was pushing the snus as well as the cigRx. 'm glad the ecigs do it for me because those pills are pretty pricey if you have to use them alongside ecigs or snus then you can nix saving money by not smoking. Of course thehealth benefits would be worth it but some smokers/vapers just don't have the funds.

ETA: I can just about garauntee we are getting nicotine. I have gotten a little buzz from vaping too much at times and hubby would've gone back by now if he wasn't getting something off it. He had a harder time with the switchover than I did.

 

[DVap]

I put down a like, see what happens.

Whether he realizes it or not, with a good number of folks here, they're going to look to me for the thumbs up before getting on board with his rendition of WTA. Of course, others will hop right on, and good luck to them.

Thanks again Dvap...

I am waiting on a reply from the guy at vapilicious. On his website he has this thing saying if you purchase 25 dollars worth of flavors or be in the first 25 to "Like" his Facebook page ( I was #15) he will send them a free sample. So I sent him a comment telling him that I was # 15 and I would like to try a sample of his WTA liquid. I'll let ya know if he responds or even honors his agreement. ( I saved copies of the Facebook page as proof)

The Likes are at 15 now so you have time to ask time for a sample if you want to try or test one. Just log into your his page with your Facebook account and choose the Like button. Would you be able to test his liquid and let us know what you think?

I suppose there are no guarantees he will offer me a sample of the WTA liquid but he just said "a sample", he didn't say a sample of what. Vapelicious Blog « Vape Store & DIY Flavor Blog

Pasteurizing tobacco. Hmm Well I guess it's o.k. for tobacco but I run from anything pasteurized as a rule. For milk, maybe on a slim chance I'll let that stand. For orange juice, No way. Turns out pasteurization kills enzymes that help provide the helpful life giving substances our bodies need. Anytime you heat living foods to over 110 degrees you do more harm then good. There just isn't any good reason to pasteurized orange juice. - Sorry that was neither here nor there.

 

[DVap]

For those of you who are interested in visuals, here's a shot of nicotine in VG (left) and 48 mg WTA in VG/PG (right). The quarter provides scale.


click to enlarge.

I made the WTA liquid last night, and mixed it to 48 mg to demonstrate the color of the stuff that was blowing Bob's head off. It's much more colored that most WTA I make because I usually don't make 48 mg. The stuff I've sent to Kurt, Hittman and others is 30 mg (or 1.6 times more dilute and 1.6 times less colored). For my own use, when I feel like it, I usually mix no higher than 20 mg.

Since I was really trying for good recovery, the specifics on this batch are 40 grams of NAS tobacco as the starting material, with a yield of 570 mg of alkaloids. Assuming I got all the alkaloids (I didn't, but I came close enough), we have (0.57g/40g) X 100% or 1.425%. Which, of course, means that the NAS tobacco is around 1.425% alkaloids by weight. It made around 12 mL.

Just thought I'd share the picture.

For kicks, as I was going to bed last night, I dripped and vaped maybe 6 drops of this stuff into a clean de-bridged atty. Oh my God... the stuff rocked in my throat and a short while later, I fell asleep within a fluffy cloud of very happy thoughts.

 

[hittman]

I'm glad to see you woke up ok after that Dvap. I know you don't usually do anything that high. One question. I remember you saying that it was rather expensive to make the WTA and was wondering if the guy from vapelicious does get some type of mass production going then will that make a dent in the cost to make it and in turn decrease the end user cost? If not, I think some people will be a little surprised at the cost per ml of WTA liquid. One other comment. I think the plain WTA liquid with no flavorings added gives the most realistic and full bodied taste. I added a menthol crystal to some because I love menthol liquid but I thought it took away from the flavor of the WTA liquid.

 

[wrigleyvillain]

Thanks guys I watch this with much interest. I don't use Facebook so I can't assist there...

 

[DVap]

I'm glad to see you woke up ok after that Dvap. I know you don't usually do anything that high. One question. I remember you saying that it was rather expensive to make the WTA and was wondering if the guy from vapelicious does get some type of mass production going then will that make a dent in the cost to make it and in turn decrease the end user cost? If not, I think some people will be a little surprised at the cost per ml of WTA liquid. One other comment. I think the plain WTA liquid with no flavorings added gives the most realistic and full bodied taste. I added a menthol crystal to some because I love menthol liquid but I thought it took away from the flavor of the WTA liquid.

Hitt,

I'd almost bet Ben Franklin's portrait in green that he's using supercritical carbon dioxide. This puts a serious dent in material costs.

 

[ShannonA]

For those of you who are interested in visuals, here's a shot of nicotine in VG (left) and 48 mg WTA in VG/PG (right). The quarter provides scale.

View attachment 39074
click to enlarge.

I made the WTA liquid last night, and mixed it to 48 mg to demonstrate the color of the stuff that was blowing Bob's head off. It's much more colored that most WTA I make because I usually don't make 48 mg. The stuff I've sent to Kurt, Hittman and others is 30 mg (or 1.6 times more dilute and 1.6 times less colored). For my own use, when I feel like it, I usually mix no higher than 20 mg.

Since I was really trying for good recovery, the specifics on this batch are 40 grams of NAS tobacco as the starting material, with a yield of 570 mg of alkaloids. Assuming I got all the alkaloids (I didn't, but I came close enough), we have (0.57g/40g) X 100% or 1.425%. Which, of course, means that the NAS tobacco is around 1.425% alkaloids by weight. It made around 12 mL.

Just thought I'd share the picture.

For kicks, as I was going to bed last night, I dripped and vaped maybe 6 drops of this stuff into a clean de-bridged atty. Oh my God... the stuff rocked in my throat and a short while later, I fell asleep within a fluffy cloud of very happy thoughts.

I take it yo vape the WTA juice OR the nic juice but don't mix the two?

 

[DVap]

I take it yo vape the WTA juice OR the nic juice but don't mix the two?

Generally the nic juice. The two can be mixed, but there's really no point unless you're trying to up the nicotine relative to the other alkaloids.

 

[steakneggs]

Very interesting thread, I will be paying attention to this.

I started vaping on Tuesday when I woke up and was generally fine with what I was doing. On Wednesday I ended up being without while we were away from home, my Cartos dried up and I didn't think we would be gone long enough to be without. I ended up smoking two analogs. Yesterday I smoked two analogs and told my wife for some reason I just need to do it - about mid-day, for no apparent reason, it didn't taste good, it doesn't feel good, I just had to. I couldn't explain why though.

Today I have smoked about 5 analogs so far and pushed vaping to the side. This is still better then my 1.5 to 2PAD but finding this information is giving me a reason why I am doing what I am doing. I think I might have a low addiction to nicotine and a higher addiction to the other stuff. Although smoking the 5 analogs has confirmed my belief that the new style of cigarettes we are smoking is giving me headaches.

I might try CigRX if it provides a replacement for my body of "the other stuff", but with the recommendation of swedish snus, why is this different then Camel or Marlboro snus? I am not worried about nic, just the WTAs.

Very impressed with the smart thinking on this forum, this place truly is a goldmine of information.

 

[wrigleyvillain]

I have gathered that Swedish snus (where they originated and became very popular before the hitting the US btw) are organic and held/produced to higher quality standards and perhaps don't have (so many) additives? A Google could surely provide more info.