FDA So where is the outcry from the vendors?

[Roger_Lafayette]

Well if they have been advocating in those places, count me clueless. [...]

Just as three examples - there's a vendors' org in OK which is extremely effective and active, the name of the fellow who's leading it slips my mind, but I've seen him mentioned in numerous media reports - Nate something I think. I hear a rumor that Cap O'Rourke (a lobbyist hired by MN vapers) did wonders in MN. And Aaaron Frazier in UT has worked tirelessly. Those are the three that I can name (well at least that I can shake a finger at) who were involved in significant recent statewide struggles. Good outcomes in all three cases.

So it's a mixed bag.

That said, this is serious in a way that no state indoor/outdoor vaping ban, or even near-confiscatory tax would be. The only thing that parallels it at the state level is that NY bill that would ban e-liquid completely (and even that wouldn't ban hardware).

On the other side - I ran a tiny retail co-op grocery store for a year. I know running any B&M business is hugely demanding and basically takes over your life. You don't have time for anything besides putting out the "fires" that are right in front of your nose. So part of me is sympathetic. On the other hand, if these peope don't realize that this is the moral equivalent of a complaint from the health dep't or a check which is about to go rubber (writ large, long-term) then they aren't good businesspeople. They have to make the time to pay attention.

 

[Gato del Jugo]

Wrong link? Getting something about the world's sounds.

Just triple-checked it..


Smoke Free Radio Episode 2

On this episode of Smoke Free Radio we are joined by attorney Azim Chowdhury who has developed expertise in tobacco product regulation and has experience representing tobacco manufacturers and suppliers, including electronic cigarette companies, in FDA regulatory matters. Callers included the former Winston Man David Goerlitz, Cisco from AvidVaper, Kevin Skipper from VISTA and others.

 

[aikanae1]

I LOVE Mn's website. If anyone hasn't seen it, they should check it out. That's where I found the study from FDA approving "anti-freeze" (PG) for inhalation. Sweet.

That is the kind of list I was looking for. It can be done and has been. NY has gotten some good press too, but again, I think part of the problem is that it took too long for people to get involved. Sometimes that's ok, but sometimes it's not. I watched the video of the first council meeting and one vendor was present (the city council pulled some other dirty tricks so that's not the whole story).

I don't remember where this line comes from, "this .... just got real". I think people are getting it. Now more vendors need to also and they need to communicate it to their customer base who might not be involved with ECF.

Just as three examples - there's a vendors' org in OK which is extremely effective and active, the name of the fellow who's leading it slips my mind, but I've seen him mentioned in numerous media reports - Nate something I think. I hear a rumor that Cap O'Rourke (a lobbyist hired by MN vapers) did wonders in MN. And Aaaron Frazier in UT has worked tirelessly. Those are the three that I can name (well at least that I can shake a finger at) who were involved in significant recent statewide struggles. Good outcomes in all three cases.

So it's a mixed bag.

That said, this is serious in a way that no state indoor/outdoor vaping ban, or even near-confiscatory tax would be. The only thing that parallels it at the state level is that NY bill that would ban e-liquid completely (and even that wouldn't ban hardware).

On the other side - I ran a tiny retail co-op grocery store for a year. I know running any B&M business is hugely demanding and basically takes over your life. You don't have time for anything besides putting out the "fires" that are right in front of your nose. So part of me is sympathetic. On the other hand, if these peope don't realize that this is the moral equivalent of a complaint from the health dep't or a check which is about to go rubber (writ large, long-term) then they aren't good businesspeople. They have to make the time to pay attention.

 

[aikanae1]

LOL! I can't believe lil' old me has to dance around getting censored all the time. That really is funny.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

Just triple-checked it..


Smoke Free Radio Episode 2

On this episode of Smoke Free Radio we are joined by attorney Azim Chowdhury who has developed expertise in tobacco product regulation and has experience representing tobacco manufacturers and suppliers, including electronic cigarette companies, in FDA regulatory matters. Callers included the former Winston Man David Goerlitz, Cisco from AvidVaper, Kevin Skipper from VISTA and others.

Thank you. I found it a different way and listening to it now. Not sure why yours isn't working for me. This is the link I got that works if others are having trouble. Smoke Free Radio: Interview with Azim Chowdhurry FDA Regulatory Attorney | Welcome to DimiSphere

 

[coalyard]

These bills need action BEFORE they are scheduled to vote; BEFORE they go to committee. Like I said, this has been a pet peeve of mine for awhile.

Amen to that, and this is something I have been saying on as many threads as I can. I repeat, if you are answering questions and allegations, you are losing. We MUST if possible, be out in front of the conversation and set the agenda, BEFORE it is set for us. This is politics and public relations 101. If you are reacting, you are doing it wrong. Just sayin'.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

I am not sure about where all of you are, but down here in San Diego the vendors are getting as much media time as they can get in the local news stations. So they are in fact doing something publicly about it every chance they get.

I know a lot of people are frustrated by the apparent lack of action by the vendors and suppliers but I assure you, just because they don't "Go Tell It On The Mountain Brother" on the issue and toot horns and blow the trumpet does not mean they are not doing anything. Most of them in fact are probably doing operating cost analysis to see what it will take to keep their prices as low as humanly possible and at the same time maintain the ability to make a living at what they do IF these regulations go through as they are currently written.

There is a lot of things that go into play here so creating a panic by Insinuating that the vendors have something to hide is simply reprehensible in every sense of the word.

Have patience, be supportive of the efforts being made and don't EVER think that just because they don't send you an email on their every move because you want to know that they are doing nothing towards the outcome of this problem.

Sincerely;
Nate

 

[Tyrawr]

I like you guys. There are a lot of really strong voices and ideas coming out of this sub. I've been back in lurker mode. I'm remembering how listen, reflect, and keep quiet. My views surrounding this whole thing have changed dramatically in the last week, and although I was never too far out of line, I live to laugh at some of my week old posts and views.

Anyway, thanks for being here, and thanks for your dedication, deep-thinking, and on-point-ness. And thanks for teaching and reminding me.

Hey vendors (and sanctioned ECF suppliers)... after perusing a lot of sites, it looks like "business as usual".

Where are the links to the FDA proposals (on your MAIN pages)?

<crickets chirping>

Thanks ECBlends

Have you explained to your loyal customer base how this might affect you?

<tumbleweeds rolling>

Why should I support you if you won't support me?

<owls hooting>

Tell me again why I need to fight your part of this battle and why you deserve my money?


Yes folks, an itty-bitty rant but if it's not true then please (please) tell me differently. In all fairness, There's a thread here from some time ago mentioning a B&M vendor that wrote a nice check to CASAA but I can't find it.

But basically, Holy Crap. It's like vendors are in "stand-by" mode waiting for us to sharpen the pitch forks and oil the torches FOR THEM. 8-o. I've even read somewhere here that a vaper is going to print fliers (at his expense) about the FDA and "ask" a local B&M if they would hand them out. Is this the mentality we've been reduced to?

I've sent no less than 20 emails out to different vendors basically asking them why I should continue to support them. No responses. Not one. Zip. Nada. Zilch.

This is one of the most disturbing things that I have noticed in this whole debacle. It seems like vendors would be an excellent medium for accurate and up to date information, and also an awesome and powerful platform for fund raising, guidance, unification, and exposure. I know that if I was a vendor in the vaping industry, I would be doing everything in my power to keep the industry that supported my livelihood and (presumably) passion free, safe, and workable. Also, I think that I would have enough love and respect for my product, community, customers, and self to (at the very, very) least acknowledge that some serious things are happening all around us.

Kodiak, would you mind sharing samples of the messages that you have been sending out?
I think that it would be a cool idea to draft a letter that we can all use and modify, and send out to vendors and other potential allies. If the vendor doesn't want to communicate (once there are 2, or 10, or 100 of us) or openly opposes the causes that we are all fighting for, we can simply send our money in a more supportive direction, and compile a list to be distributed through the forum, personal contacts, and other networks. It would be fairly easy to set up a community document that we could maintain and build.

It is vital, always and across the board, to vote with our dollars. I'm extremely picky when it comes to vendors already. What is one more box to check off on my list? I don't mind spending an extra couple of dollars to nurture a symbiotic relationship with an entity that I care about. In fact, it brings me joy. If no vendors align with the community's interests, then let's start a co-op, and start making our own supplies. Any extra money can be sent to CASAA and other allies.

As it stands, it feels like a majority of the "sellers" are looking to rake in as much as they can in the next 2ish years, close up shop, and move on. It seems like a lot of vendors believe that the battle is lost, and the war is coming to a close. I want to believe that ALL of these 99.999% of vendors are wisely crafting a contingency plan, and waiting for the CASAA rally call. But I think that view is exceedingly naive. I think that it is wise for us as consumers and as a community to think long and hard, and reserve ourselves until guidance is given. However, there are steps that can be taken before that, and before it's too late. For vendors, it could be as simple as sharing a line or two about your stance, and/or posting a few links on the front page, and/or providing a gateway to donate to CASAA, and/or etc.. That takes, what, 10 minutes of "work"? The honest fact, dealing with consumerism as we are, is that many of these larger vendors probably have a better chance of reaching the masses than CASAA or any of us, anyway.

I am going to start writing letters tonight to all of the vendors that I use regularly.
I will be happy to share what I come up with. Thanks again, guys. Happy Saturday

 

[Tyrawr]

I am not sure about where all of you are, but down here in San Diego the vendors are getting as much media time as they can get in the local news stations. So they are in fact doing something publicly about it every chance they get.

I know a lot of people are frustrated by the apparent lack of action by the vendors and suppliers but I assure you, just because they don't "Go Tell It On The Mountain Brother" on the issue and toot horns and blow the trumpet does not mean they are not doing anything. Most of them in fact are probably doing operating cost analysis to see what it will take to keep their prices as low as humanly possible and at the same time maintain the ability to make a living at what they do IF these regulations go through as they are currently written.

There is a lot of things that go into play here so creating a panic by Insinuating that the vendors have something to hide is simply reprehensible in every sense of the word.

Have patience, be supportive of the efforts being made and don't EVER think that just because they don't send you an email on their every move because you want to know that they are doing nothing towards the outcome of this problem.

Sincerely;
Nate

That is excellent to hear!! And you definitely make good and valid points.

My reservation/counter argument is that we should not be "preparing" as individuals, businesses, communities, or otherwise for something hypothetical, that hasn't even happened yet. That seems like a self-fulfilling and defeating prophecy/approach, no? The more I learn, think, and feel this one out, the more seemingly apparent it becomes that if the legislation passes as is, these vendors won't be around at all.

I personally don't want to know anyones every move (except for maybe three letter acronym entities). I would just like to see, at the bare minimum, acknowledgement of the situation, and maybe even affirmation that these suppliers actually care about this situation, their customers, and their communities.

 

[DeeLeeKay]

I guess it depends on the vendors. I, for, one think it is more then the vendors responsiblity to know what is going on. Having said that, what about local vaping communities? What can they be doing to help keep vaping legal?

 

[Devonmoonshire]

That is excellent to hear!! And you definitely make good and valid points.

My reservation/counter argument is that we should not be "preparing" as individuals, businesses, communities, or otherwise for something hypothetical, that hasn't even happened yet. That seems like a self-fulfilling and defeating prophecy/approach, no? The more I learn, think, and feel this one out, the more seemingly apparent it becomes that if the legislation passes as is, these vendors won't be around at all.

I personally don't want to know anyones every move (except for maybe three letter acronym entities). I would just like to see, at the bare minimum, acknowledgement of the situation, and maybe even affirmation that these suppliers actually care about this situation, their customers, and their communities.

I guess I can say that I have a select number of vendors that I buy E Liquid From. Mostly I DIY but I do have a select few that I actually purchase from and I have a good dialogue with as I have met these vendors in person. They are like Family to me as we all came into this around the same time and they have taken off in their popularity and their quality speaks for itself. Some people hate one of my Favorite vendors because the deem them to be over priced. I assure you they will be one of the ones that remains when the smoke clears, not because their juice costs more, but because their facilities are already up to snuff and where they need to be to survive no matter what comes down.

I know and trust that the vendors of whom I speak are doing everything that they need to to fight where fighting needs to happen by them, and are allowing those who know how to fight certain battles to fight those battles without interference, but with 100% support.


As far as everyone writing a million letters and emails to your vendors to clog up their already busy schedule, that is ill advised in my opinion. AND I Stress to any Haters out there that is ONLY MY OPINION. Everyone here who knows me personally, AND THERE ARE MANY, know what I say is what I mean and what I mean is what I say. I do not and will not pull punches nor will I submit to someone else's opinion just as I would not ask them to submit to my own.

 

[KODIAK (TM)]

Kodiak, would you mind sharing samples of the messages that you have been sending out?

Oh, geez. Ok, here's basically what I used with the "expletives" deleted Nothing fancy to be sure.

Hi!

I’m an account member and patron of <Insert Vendor Name Here>. My records indicate I’ve spent $______ with you thus far in 2014. Thank you for the excellent value, timely processing and expedited shipping. It’s why I keep coming back to you!

Until now.

As an industry supplier I’m sure you know about this new round of FDA regulations looming on the horizon. But then again, how can I be sure? There is no mention of this at all in your FAQ section, Help Desk or knowledge base. I find this disturbing.

I’m sure this is an oversight. However, until such time as I see you acknowledge the potential harm these proposed regulations will have on my ability to buy (and your ability to sell), I can only assume you aren’t in business for the “long haul” which is a relationship I can no longer be a part of.

Much of your competition has dedicated web space and other resources to this important issue. Why haven’t you? And if you have - please "toot" your own horn because you deserve to be recognized by the people you value the most - your “repeat” customers.

Thanks!

As far as everyone writing a million letters and emails to your vendors to clog up their already busy schedule, that is ill advised in my opinion.

Well, consider some schedules officially "clogged". Apologies in advance for delayed shipments folks.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

Well, consider some schedules officially "clogged". Apologies in advance for delayed shipments folks.

The thing you must keep in mind is that the media being paid puppets for the most part will spin any and all shout outs by vendors in a negative manor. You surely must know this to be fact. That is why I presume many have also kept their actions on this matter quiet.

Also many of the reputable vendors are probably double checking their facilities to ensure they are also up to standards so they can keep in business.

Just assumptions at this point but very logical assumptions in my eyes. So don't hold your breath on a response from them if this is the case as they have much more industry important things to do then to respond to threats of not buying their products anymore. Especially if they are using their time to better ensure their ability to provide them to you in the future.

Once again, just my Two cents and logical thinking process.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

All I'm hearing here is, hey vendor I want you to understand this whole FDA thing right now. And I want you to understand it just like I do.

Each vendor out there has to determine what they are going to do to stay alive, part of that is understanding the whole FDA mess as it will apply to them.

I'm sure those that have the money likely have lawyers looking at it, and that takes time. Decisions take time, getting enough money together to take action takes time. And not one vendor wants to make the wrong decision.

Give everyone 30 days to digest this mess, there will be some shots from the hip but the real actions need a bit more thought.

Maurice

 

[KODIAK (TM)]

So don't hold your breath on a response from them if this is the case as they have much more industry important things to do then to respond to threats of not buying their products anymore.

I haven't gotten any responses. I must not have spent enough with them.

Especially if they are using their time to better ensure their ability to provide them to you in the future.

If that's the case, It would behoove them to tell us that. At least in the spirit of quelling the fears of us lowly, uneducated natives.

All I'm hearing here is, hey vendor I want you to understand this whole FDA thing right now. And I want you to understand it just like I do.

It would be my “hope”, they understand the implications much better than I since they do this for a living.

Nope. The more I look at this I truly think a lot of vendors are just waiting for the vaping public and that special "someone" with deep pockets to rescue them (again). But those whose hearts and minds are in the right place AND, show evidence they're trying to help themselves... well, I'll take names and support them.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

I haven't gotten any responses. I must not have spent enough with them.

If that's the case, It would behoove them to tell us that. At least in the spirit of quelling the fears of us lowly, uneducated natives.

It would be my “hope”, they understand the implications much better than I since they do this for a living.

Nope. The more I look at this I truly think a lot of vendors are just waiting for the vaping public and that special "someone" with deep pockets to rescue them (again). But those whose hearts and minds are in the right place AND, show evidence they're trying to help themselves... well, I'll take names and support them.

Speculation and personal opinion. All of this that you have said is just more proof of the fact that even a diverse crowd can come together on common ground as we all do here. We all may have our differences but it is that very diversity that allows us to attack from all fronts.

Make no mistake, we have beaten them in the supreme court before and we can with a united front do so again.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Seeing as this industry has been unregulated for quite some time, I highly doubt any vendor is any more qualified to understand what the FDA has put out there than you or I.

Sure it is their business but now it is looking like the freedom to do business as usual is about to come to an end, with regulation comes whole new aspects of doing business. Nobody has a regulation compliance manager on the payroll because there are no regulations to keep up with.

Nobody in this industry is going to jump from zero to hero in a weeks time. I'm not even sure you could find a qualified lawyer to address half the questions a business might have in one week.

Plus, the industry has been doing its best to provide value to its customers for quite a while now, I'm not sure the focus has been on trying to assess what regulations might come down the pipe, at least not to the extent that a business would have preplanned options from day one.

Once regulations are a factor you have to be very careful about every move you make, every policy and procedure you write and follow, every aspect of your company is potentially going to end up under some regulatory microscope.

I would doubt the companies out there that depend on us are feeling any less stress right now than the rest of us, the professionals are talking, asking, planning, seeking advice from folks other than outhouse lawyers.

We keep hearing these huge numbers for cost of product acceptance forms, I'm sure vendors are trying to find out just exactly how much or how little of an impact this is going to make on them and how they are going to scrape that up in two years. The companies need to still be viable in two years or it doesn't much matter does it?

I'd love to see some action on the legal front, I'm just not sure what the most effective measures need to be addressed.

I'd like to limit the FDA to regulating nicotine base quality, and nothing beyond that. If they want to play let them keep our liquid nicotine base pure. If that component ends up being taxed it should be taxed well prior to being used in any device or e-liquid recipe.

Maurice

 

[Devonmoonshire]

I'd like to limit the FDA to regulating nicotine base quality, and nothing beyond that. If they want to play let them keep our liquid nicotine base pure. If that component ends up being taxed it should be taxed well prior to being used in any device or e-liquid recipe.

Maurice

All are extremely good points Maurice, but I have to say that this One Point stands out the most in my eyes.

I do not believe that this request of the FDA to adjust their regulatory provisions to reflect this is at all out of the question. It gives them the control they feel they need on the "Tobacco Derived Nicotine" AND it does not really leave open any harmful ingredients to the public considering EVERYTHING else that is in our liquid IS IN FACT already regulated by the FDA in some way shape or form.

I wonder if CASAA would be willing to get behind this as a possible proposal to amend the deeming regulations to reflect this. It does seem like a fair and viable course of action to take.

With Much Respect;
Nate

 

[mynewtoy]

Speculation and personal opinion. All of this that you have said is just more proof of the fact that even a diverse crowd can come together on common ground as we all do here. We all may have our differences but it is that very diversity that allows us to attack from all fronts.

Make no mistake, we have beaten them in the supreme court before and we can with a united front do so again.

i really hope this goes to court and the they tell the FDA it isn't a tobacco product maybe regulate it as medical device

 

[Devonmoonshire]

i really hope this goes to court and the they tell the FDA it isn't a tobacco product maybe regulate it as medical device

But by their own words they cannot make any claims that these devices can improve health, therefore they cannot be medical devices in which case the FDA Has Absolutely No jurisdiction or regulatory authority over them.

I believe the FDA should ensure the purity and content amounts of any nicotine base liquid as that is the ONLY thing in these that could potentially cause any harm at all. In which case it must be regulated at the source, not afterwards when it is added to the device as it should have been regulated prior to being added in which case if they require both they are playing double jeopardy which is illegal.