some thoughts on "dry leaf", legislation, and ECF

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sonicdsl

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It seems that the truth about Smokeless tobacco (ST) has eluded many, even here at ECF. The problem with tobacco only comes by smoking (ie: combustion). Contrary to popular belief, ST is not a major health hazard. In fact, most of the information about the "99% lower risk" of e-cigs is based on the results of ST studies done over the years (particularly the snus studies from Sweden over the past 30+ years), as there has not yet been time for long-term studies on e-cigs. The assumption is that e-cigs are at least on par with ST in regards to the lowered harm risk, if not greater. The studies are now starting to come in, and so far are proving the hypothesis correct, but more needs to be done, particularly on flavorings, and more so on flavorings heated at higher temps, such as with a sub-ohm rig.

Please see these links for more information, and seek to understand better why this decision was made (and it was not made lightly, or hastily, I assure you):

Smoke-free Tobacco
Smokefree Types
Smoke-free Tobacco FAQS
Smokefree Health Effects

Tobacco Harm Reduction - An Explanation
Why Snus Is Important

Excerpt from the last link:

Swedish Snus is very important to the e-cigarette community because it is the proof (not just evidence) that:

  • THR works
  • That it works spectacularly well
  • That it is the only thing that does work, once smoking prevalence is reduced to a certain level
  • That it has dramatic (and unique) benefits for public health
  • That allowing its widespread, unrestricted use results in an impressive (and unique) fall in smoking prevalence throughout the population
  • That it produces a remarkable (and unique) drop in smoking-related death and disease

The long history of consumption of Snus in Sweden is the reason why we know the factual results of the use of consumer THR products, and why there is no need for a debate about the issues or the 'evidence': we already have the facts.
 

Noble Gas

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It seems to me that the rules about NOT discussing controlled substances are clear, and definitely not blurry or slippery. Do we really want to deny people information and discussion about different forms of THR just because the same gear can be used in other ways? Guilt by association is a concern but a weak one, I think. I appreciate that we're all a bit worried about the direction the anti-e-cig campaign is taking us, but the people who are fighting us have already made up their minds, taken their bribes and are doing everything they can to wreck it all. I doubt a few or even a few thousand posts about the process of heating dry tobacco leaves to vaporize the nicotine are going to make any difference or help their agenda in any way. It's not naive; people actually do that and it's still better than combustion. The real challenge is going to be on us; to read, understand and follow the rules, and post responsibly.
 
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exnihilo

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Part of the reason why we can allow this change at this time is that the future of ecigs has now been decided. It couldn't be any worse, so there is no way to go down.

Huh?

Roly, is this in consensus with our favorite Redhead's post about the endgame?
:(.

Double Huh?

cg
 

rolygate

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Roly, is this in consensus with our favorite Redhead's post about the endgame?
:(.

Endgame discussions are popular with the antz but it looks to me as if the endgame* is farther away than ever.

* the end of tobacco use, either by reducing smoking prevalence or by banning it

Because:
Smoking prevalence is down to 20% or thereabouts in many places, and we now know that (a) it cannot be reduced any more by tobacco control measures, and (b) too many people make too much money from smoking to allow it to be banned or significantly reduced any further.

Only substitution works after the 20% Prevalence Rule operates (google that and read the lengthy explanation on Ecig Politics).

It's now obvious that the smoking economy can protect itself vigorously. It's a trillion-dollar plus machine and it's everywhere. Government, regional government, tobacco firms, pharmaceutical firms, 'public health' front groups, main street retailers, growers, distribution, hospitals, lung specialists, politicians, State Attorneys General, and many more - they all depend on smoking. Smoking used to have an 80% prevalence, now it's down to 20% or less, and it looks like that is their line in the sand: no more reduction.

They are fighting aggressively to protect the smoking that's left. They can't afford to see it shrink any further.

The US States are about the best example: some now depend on tobacco money to stave off bankruptcy. The shrinking MSA payments this year, due to the ecig effect, are causing them to scream in agony. The tobacco bonds they issued against future MSA payments are going to become junk if the slide continues, and they are desperate to keep taking the MSA money and stay afloat.

See how the Attorneys General are fighting as hard as they can to ban ecigs. The lies are being turned up to frenetic level to smear ecigs and protect smoking. If you wanted a definition of pure corruption and pure evil, you don't need to look any further than the State AG's who are fighting to ban ecigs and protect cigarette sales.

In the information age, you can't ban anything - or ban it by taxing it aggressively - because people can always get their supplies outside the legal channels.

In the UK, guns and drugs are banned, and they spend a king's ransom on enforcing that, but you can get them without too much trouble (it just puts the price up).

Banning or mega-taxing something just shifts the supply channel to the black market. Prohibition doesn't work and can't work.

When people believe they have a right to access a product, then resistance to corrupt laws becomes a national sport. The government becomes a laughing stock, or universally hated.

There are more THR products than ever before, and more people have access to those products via the web every day. You can't stop it, it isn't physically possible.

THR in Sweden is killing off smoking, not tobacco control. Snus is killing off smoking there. Male smoking prevalence falls at 1% per year, has done since 2003 at least, and will be just 5% by 2016. The endgame for smoking may well come but it won't be the endgame for tobacco or nicotine.

The antz have had to move the goalposts from smoking to tobacco to nicotine in order to keep up, keep their jobs, and keep that money rolling in. Their principal purpose now is to protect smoking, although being useful id_iots they mostly haven't figured that out yet.

Unfortunately when THR beats out smoking, the number of nicotine users doesn't fall, they just move across to another product. So the endgame for nicotine is as far away as ever. THR might eventually decimate smoking though. That isn't much use to the tobacco control industry though, as that means they'd be out of a job. In order to stay in the game they have to make nicotine the villain. That's becoming increasingly difficult because in the information age, people are becoming aware that (a) nicotine is a fairly harmless normal dietary ingredient that around 25% of the population need to supplement, and (b) the torrent of lies they need to make this work is gradually being exposed.


Just some of the points that have some relevance. That was written out straight in a couple of minutes so there are bound to be more :))
 

rolygate

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Originally Posted by rolygate
Part of the reason why we can allow this change at this time is that the future of ecigs has now been decided. It couldn't be any worse, so there is no way to go down.


See post #13 in this thread. The future of vaping has already been decided. They can't let smoking prevalence shrink any more.

There will be a massive fight for about 30 years and then we'll win. It always goes like that when a new technology takes over.
 

exnihilo

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See post #13 in this thread. The future of vaping has already been decided. They can't let smoking prevalence shrink any more.

There will be a massive fight for about 30 years and then we'll win. It always goes like that when a new technology takes over.

Unless, of course, our future robot overlords enjoy the brown leaf.

Thanks for the info by the way!!

cg
 

rothenbj

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THR has long existed on ECF outside the realm of Ecigs and I'm thankful for it. It might have been different today, maybe not, then it was in '09 when I found my first Blu Ecig. As a 43 year, 2-3 PAD smoker who had given up trying to quit, I was a hard case. I had to have my arm twisted to spend the money on what I considered to be another gadget in my history of at least 2 dozen quit attempts with everything except Chantix.

After realizing Blu didn't cut it, I found manual button 510s and I dropped from 50 cigs a day to 6. That lasted 6 months but I was getting tired of charging batteries and filling carts and not only was maintenance getting to be a drag, but the cigarette desire started coming back. I'd see these warning signs before and knew I'd be back to full time smoking if something didn't change.

Fortunately snus was mentioned here and there on the forum and I got curious. I started asking questions and was turned off by the fact that it was smokeless tobacco (yes, the propaganda had worked on me) but that didn't stop me from getting directions to the other side of the tracks, the dark side, in ECF- The Smokeless Forum. Once I found it, the folks there gave me an education and for that I'll always be grateful. I wasn't completely buying it, but they put me on the road to investigation which lead to the information Rolygate has already provided plus decades of studies on snus. I was convinced in that month to give it a try.

The problem then was to get it. I figured convenience stores wouldn't have it so I went to smoke shops. They looked at me like I was crazy, never heard of it. Now maybe if I called it like it spelled (snus instead of snoose, the proper pronunciation) they would have at least heard of it, but I hit a dead end. The only option was to order from Sweden. I placed my order and waited for it to arrive.

At the time, I was stopping for coffee every morning. Before my order arrived a funny thing happened. Right behind the register they had installed a little refrigerator with Camel snus. I had heard it wasn't very good compared to Swedish style, but it was available and I was anxious. That day, for me, has great significance. I used my first portion, it was rather sweet but not disgustingly so, and found I had no desire for a cigarette. I didn't have a cigarette all day, just a few portions of snus and vaping. Within a day or so my order arrived from Sweden and I never finished that original can. However, that day 4 years and 5 months ago was my last cigarette.

I know there are some purists that believe that vaping should be the be all and end all to smoking. However the more tools available, the higher likelihood the job will get done quicker. That's true in construction and in the war against inhaling cigarettes.
 

Anjaffm

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Well said, Roly.
Sad but true.

It took me - and many fellow vapers - a while to realize the truth of this here:

Because:
Smoking prevalence is down to 20% or thereabouts in many places, and we now know that (a) it cannot be reduced any more by tobacco control measures, and (b) too many people make too much money from smoking to allow it to be banned or significantly reduced any further.

Only substitution works after the 20% Prevalence Rule operates (google that and read the lengthy explanation on Ecig Politics).

It's now obvious that the smoking economy can protect itself vigorously. It's a trillion-dollar plus machine and it's everywhere. Government, regional government, tobacco firms, pharmaceutical firms, 'public health' front groups, main street retailers, growers, distribution, hospitals, lung specialists, politicians, State Attorneys General, and many more - they all depend on smoking. Smoking used to have an 80% prevalence, now it's down to 20% or less, and it looks like that is their line in the sand: no more reduction.

They are fighting aggressively to protect the smoking that's left. They can't afford to see it shrink any further

Yes.
Lung doctors, lung associations, cancer research institutes, cancer associations.... The ones who allegedly "fight the good fight". The ones who are allegedly interested in people having healthy lungs, in people not getting cancer. Or so we thought. In reality, their livelihood depends on people having lung disease, on people having cancer. To put it bluntly: They want a high incidence of lung disease and cancer. Because they get money for that.

How naive we were to believe that those alleged do-gooders were actually interested in people's health. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I also agree with your assessment of the near future of vaping. We, the current vapers, will always find a way. But for this great way of THR to go mainstream right now.. naaawww. See Rolygate's postings above.

Thus, it is a good idea for ECF to diversify.

And yes, smokeless tobacco is much less harmful than smoked tobacco. The alleged horrible dangers of smokeless tobacco are also a bunch of ANTZ lies to protect smoking. And yes, I used to believe them, too. I preferred to keep smoking. Better to have my lungs cut away than my face. Better to die than to live disfigured. - This is how fearmongering works.
 
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Anjaffm

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but does diversification mean doing something that is counter intuitive to the general idea of safe(er) alternatives?

"Counter intuitive to the general idea of safe(er) alternatives"? What do you mean, please?

From what I have read, tobacco that is not burned (but chewed or put under lip[snus]) is definitely less risky than burned tobacco. After all, most of the hazardous substances are created through the combustion, the burning. Smokeless tobacco sure sounds like a safer alternative to me.

Snus is a little pouch of tobacco that is put under the upper lip.
For data on snus, please see here Why is the EU banning Europe’s most effective anti-smoking strategy? « The counterfactual
and here Some really very simple arguments for the EU on snus « The counterfactual
And please take a good look at the diagrams at the end of the page. Here is one: http://www.clivebates.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/cancer-mortality.png

I have not paid much attention to heat-not-burn tobacco, but there is definitely no combustion.

And I hate to say it, but Roly is correct with his description of what is going on.
I agree that it is time to diversify, it is time to consider / discuss other alternatives. When one door is slammed in front of your face, another door usually opens. It is not much use staring at the door that is closing, better to look for the door that is opening.

What do you know about smokeless tobacco? What have you read (that was not influenced / spread by the same people who now engage in fearmongering against e-cigs)?
 

DreamWithin

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From what I have read, tobacco that is not burned (but chewed or put under lip[snus]) is definitely less risky than burned tobacco. After all, most of the hazardous substances are created through the combustion, the burning. Smokeless tobacco sure sounds like a safer alternative to me.

QFT :)

I don't see tobacco leaf vaporizors being counter-intuitive at all to the principle of THR. If anything, it may go against the grain of the concept of getting completely away from tobacco, but (following that train of thought) technically so would e-cigs since the nicotine we use is derived from tobacco :2c:

Leaf vaporizers are still a valid and effective form of THR and isn't reducing the harm caused by tobacco our ultimate goal? I personally have no interest in using said products, but they do have their place in the big picture IMHO
 
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Cool_Breeze

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There is lots of chatter hereabout regarding potential chemicals in various products...juices, wicks, etc. Flavorings aside, I'd venture a guess that warmed 'tobacco vapors' offer many more chemicals.

I remember as a student, a demonstration I put on for a grade school class. A coffee can with a tight-fitting metal lid was partially filled with wood shavings. A small hole was punched in the lid and the can was placed on a hot-plate/warmer. 'Smoke' came out of the can and putting a match to the smoke turned it into a flame. After the flame ran out, the can was opened and while there was no combustion in the can, the wood shavings had turned to black, charcoal like substance.

While it may make good business and/or popular sense, is this 'Forward Into the Past?'
 

Ca Ike

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Cool breeze I remember doing that experiment in school years ago myself. Thing is, when you heat any solid substance to the point you get vapor from it it is actually smoldering which is low level combustion and why you get charcoal as a result. I can't find it anywhere right now but I remember a report from when the Marlboro heat stick came out years back that said it was only marginally safer than a cig
 

DreamWithin

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I can't find it anywhere right now but I remember a report from when the Marlboro heat stick came out years back that said it was only marginally safer than a cig

I don't recall ever seeing that one (maybe was never test-marketed in my area), though I do recall RJR's "vapor" cigarette from the late 90's. I actually tried it for a while, was somewhat satisfying but quite different. I'm not surprised it disappeared from the market, since real-world usage conditions apparently negated any benefit shown in labs (assuming that original pre-market test data was actually any good): Eclipse: does it live up to its health claims? -- Slade et al. 11 (suppl 2): ii64 -- Tobacco Control
 
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