Something I Don't Understand

[Saintscruiser]

SG! WB! I knew you were there......just couldn't see you. About whether a Christian can be in unbelief.......it depends on what type of unbelief you're talking about. Do I believe Jesus is going to send a million dollars my way? I am in unbelief. For it goes back to the will of the Father. As far as my salvation through Jesus Christ, yes, I believe it, for it's not the will of the Father that anyone should perish. You are either for Him or against Him. There is no in-between....or gray area. Even children understand that and accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. I am secure, because all of my sins were nailed to the cross over 2,000 years ago. Do I accept the gift of salvation? Yes I do. Do I doubt it? No. Why? Because of what Jesus said, and Jesus was not sinful and can't lie. You've got to know your Savior and what He stands for. Have I backsliden? Yes, as I am a sinner saved by Grace and God doesn't allow me to get too far away. Can God forgive a murderer? Yes He can. How do I know? Look at the life of Paul. What about an adulterer? Remember King David and Bathsheba? And yet, God said that David was a man after His own heart. Why? Because he was a repented sinner. Many people question their salvation. My mom was one. I kept telling her that satan was robbing her joy. Salvation is a promise from Almighty God, carried out on earth by the Son, and channels truth to our spirits by the Holy Spirit. If you want to talk to God, the Holy Spirit is the One you communicate through and vice versa.

About Revelation 22. I may be childlike in my stance on Scripture, but since I believe God literally parted the Red Sea and the children of Israel walked on a dry ocean floor, He can definitely put a book together, through man. God uses the saved as well as the unsaved to further His will. Go back to Scripture. I know people who have tried to use intellect concerning the things of God and they've wound up getting saved......like scientists. You can't help but love those folks! Like a guy at my church used to say, "It's a God thing."

 

[Saintscruiser]

To Saintscruiser... I do hope that you didn't see my comments as judgmental. It wasn't intended that way. I sympathise with anyone's struggle with health issues. I've struggled with my share but not to the degree you are. And I am far from victorious all the time. I do find that when I ponder (meditate?) on who the new man is... the one Christ has made me... I'm lifted up beyond the condition of the old man. But I regretably live in the realm of the old man quite a bit. I'm getting there but slower than I'd like.

The house is going great. We have 6 women with us right now. All are different with their own structures of beliefs to unlearn (and Truth in Christ to learn.) My wife and I view us all as a family in Christ and try to help them embrace Him.

With regards to "the words of Jesus". I understand. But we can't discount other scripture. We either accept the Bible or we don't. It's pretty hard to pick and choose on the words in red as truth. Since Jesus didn't write any of it, not even his own quotes, if part of scripture is to be questioned then it all has to be questioned. It is either what scripture says it is (for the building up of the body) or it's just a nice profound book that points us toward Christ as best it can. I am so grateful that the law of Grace (in Christ) is written on our hearts and that the Holy Spirit is speaking truth to us constantly. However, the key seems to be... avoiding the filtering of God's Truth through our own fears and mis-beliefs in order to understand what is Truth and what isn't. That's the war of the mind, isn't it? Any truth viewed through the eyes of a belief that is not true, is skewed. It is so wonderful that God has given us an indicator, a dash-board if you will of indicator lights and meters. It is the "Fruit". If we display the fruit of the Spirit, love/joy/peace etc, we are believing the truth at that moment. If we manifest other fruit, (fear, anxiety, anger, dispair, depression) then at that moment, we are believing something other than the Truth of the Spirit. It's up to us to recognize it and seek the face of God to find the truth. It is through relationship with our Father that we are able to identify what is really true. Sometimes that means identifying the lie and then embracing the truth, other times the truth simply over-rides the lie in our hearts. He is so faithful to continually speak truth to us and to work it into us. It is the transformation by the renewing of the mind. Working that which is in our hearts, into our minds so that we can walk in it.

to Southern Gent... Nice to see you. Yeah, I think it's obvious that Gal 5 is talking about the law. It's about a believer choosing to go back to the law. To be encumbered by and justified by the law after being set free from it. Paul was pretty serious about that concept wasn't he. It's interesting that human nature is always to "go back" to the law. There seems to be a false security in rules. Look at society... we are constantly making laws for every little thing that pops up. We think it (rules) will bring security and yet we grow more and more fearful. (I'll refrain from discussing political views on that.) So it appears that Paul is saying, once accepting grace (saved), if you go back to the law you can lose your salvation.

I certainly don't profess to have a clear understanding of how it all works and don't really find it to be an issue among real believers but it is interesting to a degree.

No, Hy! We're good! Your post was an Aaron and Hur one to me! No, I didn't take offense in any way. Cross my heart and hope to spit.

No one is going to believe exactly like the next person. As I've said before, we are all a part of the Body of Christ. If I recollect, I think I called myself a nose hair!!

I'm thrilled about the work you and your wife are doing, and may God richly bless you both in your endeavors.

The only reason I was seeking the words of Jesus was to me, He said it and I believe it. My Bible doesn't have red letters.......rats. I am a believer in the innerent Word of God.....the Holy Bible. I definitely like the New Testament, but I do like Psalms and Proverbs. My favorite Gospel is Matthew. My favorite book is Revelation. My favorite disciple is Peter. That was a guy who could put both feet in his mouth at the same time. That's me.

 

[Southern Gent]

to Southern Gent... Nice to see you. Yeah, I think it's obvious that Gal 5 is talking about the law. It's about a believer choosing to go back to the law. To be encumbered by and justified by the law after being set free from it. Paul was pretty serious about that concept wasn't he. It's interesting that human nature is always to "go back" to the law. There seems to be a false security in rules. Look at society... we are constantly making laws for every little thing that pops up. We think it (rules) will bring security and yet we grow more and more fearful. (I'll refrain from discussing political views on that.) So it appears that Paul is saying, once accepting grace (saved), if you go back to the law you can lose your salvation.

I certainly don't profess to have a clear understanding of how it all works and don't really find it to be an issue among real believers but it is interesting to a degree.

I think it's more of what Paul didn't say really that leaves us hanging here with Galatians 5. Paul didn't actually say one would lose their salvation, he said keeping law made grace of no effect. Does that mean salvation is lost? We could debate this till the cows come home and never find an agreement. If and I say if Paul is talking about loss of salvation, consider how many Christians involved with hard line churches today that do keep laws whether perceived Biblical or otherwise. I can't count the times I've heard Christians use the term old law & new law. What new law? Then they say "Jesus said, if you love me keep my commandments. I say what commandment? Love God & love your neighbors as yourself? Because that is really the only commandment that He gave. Usually puzzles those who like to keep law for their own vanity.
Falling somewhat within the discussion is the fact that people like to keep laws. It's a feeling of self entitlement for sure. In other words, salvation comes by the Lord's grace & my keeping of law. Christians are usually beaten to death on the sin front and have a tendency to feel justification by law keeping. As SC has said earlier in her post, the sin debt is paid for those who will accept it. Keeping law to maintain salvation is unfortunately the norm for most churches. I am much more concerned with sins of omission rather than sins committed.
I was hungry...
I was thirsty....
I was in prison..


whatever you did to the least of these, you did to Me also...
grace & peace,
SG

 

[HyOnLyph]

Exactly.
We could debate it til the cows came home. My point exactly. There are possible scriptures for both sides of the argument. And much that is not difinitive.

Not sure where the phrase "Law of Grace/Love" came from. Whether it's actually a biblical term or not ... I can't remember. However, as a covenant... the new covenant... it is a law in the sense of "set in stone", "gravity" etc. I'm not worried about the term.

I love your comment about sin. In God's grace we cannot sin. Sin does not exist to us. 1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for His seed (God's seed) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." This isn't a matter of he won't commit sin or shouldn't commit sin. He can't.
Since there is no "law" to judge us, there is no sin. And since we are born of the seed of God, we cannot sin. We are no longer that old creature... we just don't fully know it yet. If we only knew who we really are, we'd manifest the Life that is in us. (also, I think that's a pretty good argument for security in salvation.)

I think it's more of what Paul didn't say really that leaves us hanging here with Galatians 5. Paul didn't actually say one would lose their salvation, he said keeping law made grace of no effect. Does that mean salvation is lost? We could debate this till the cows come home and never find an agreement. If and I say if Paul is talking about loss of salvation, consider how many Christians involved with hard line churches today that do keep laws whether perceived Biblical or otherwise. I can't count the times I've heard Christians use the term old law & new law. What new law? Then they say "Jesus said, if you love me keep my commandments. I say what commandment? Love God & love your neighbors as yourself? Because that is really the only commandment that He gave. Usually puzzles those who like to keep law for their own vanity.
Falling somewhat within the discussion is the fact that people like to keep laws. It's a feeling of self entitlement for sure. In other words, salvation comes by the Lord's grace & my keeping of law. Christians are usually beaten to death on the sin front and have a tendency to feel justification by law keeping. As SC has said earlier in her post, the sin debt is paid for those who will accept it. Keeping law to maintain salvation is unfortunately the norm for most churches. I am much more concerned with sins of omission rather than sins committed.
I was hungry...
I was thirsty....
I was in prison..


whatever you did to the least of these, you did to Me also...
grace & peace,
SG

 

[Bluzeman]

Had a busy couple days so I'm just now getting back to this. I quit smoking over a year ago and had my last vape last August, so I don't get to this site as often as I used to.

Hi Hy! (Sorry, I couldn't resist!) As you and Southern Gent have both said, the Galatians verses were talking about the law. As an aside, Hebrews used to confuse the heck out of me until I learned that it was written to those still zealous for the law. I don't know what to make of the verses you cited in Romans, would make an interesting study.

Saintcruiser, heck yeah, I LOVE Robert Johnson! I have the boxed set of every track he recorded. Great set! Stevie Ray was awesome too. I really regret the fact that I never got to see him live. You live anywhere close to Itta Bena? That's where my greatest musical hero grew up, Mr. Riley B. King AKA, BB! I even had a Gibson ES-335 years ago, thinking about getting another one.

Trukinlady, thanks for the welcome! I've been out of the cult since 1995, was in for about 7 years. I was actually kicked out and told not to come back till I was ready to be a "Disciple". Which basically meant till I was ready to bow down and kiss .... to be blunt about it. I was lucky though, many former members were actually kidnapped by Rick Ross's group and went through deprogramming, at family members request. To me, that's brainwashing just the same as the cult's brainwashing. I don't like to type the name of the group on forums, just to keep it from coming up in google searches about the group, but if anyone is interested in the name of the group, send me a PM and I'll PM you back.

Gotta go for now, work calls.

 

[trukinlady]

This thread has really given me food for thought. I've re-read Romans 11, and hopefully gained a deeper understanding of His Word.

I believe His gift of salvation through Jesus is based on our faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.


It is my understanding of Romans 11 that Paul is telling us not to become complacent in our faith.

Romans 11:25-32
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.


I don't believe salvation is conditional, but I believe it is a great responsibility for us to live the Christian life, as He intends for us.

 

[Saintscruiser]

Saintcruiser, heck yeah, I LOVE Robert Johnson! I have the boxed set of every track he recorded. Great set! Stevie Ray was awesome too. I really regret the fact that I never got to see him live. You live anywhere close to Itta Bena? That's where my greatest musical hero grew up, Mr. Riley B. King AKA, BB! I even had a Gibson ES-335 years ago, thinking about getting another one.

Hey, Bluze.....Itta Bena is northwest from me.....a good few hours or so. BB King has a museum in Indianola, MS.

My husband told me that Stevie Ray had just gotten his life back on track....no alcohol or drugs, when his helicopter crashed. I would have loved to of seen him in concert. He's the 2nd best lead guitarist I've ever heard. The #1 spot goes to Ted Nugent. My husband is a huge Nugent fan, and the first concert I saw him in had those screens on either side of the stage, and he did a run so fast I couldn't keep up with it. The camera was focused on the neck of his guitar. My mouth literally fell open. I've pittled around with guitars since I was 19 yrs. old so I know what I saw and what kind of talent he possesses. Now, on the other hand, I'm not a fan of most of his music or language. An outhouse is cleaner, so that should tell you something. I met him at a book signing and he and his wife both were very cordial and nice folks. I wasn't into hard rock......I loved Neil Diamond, Mama's and the Papa's, Beach Boys, etc. Now, my main love is Christian music....mainly Carman, because many of his songs are on spiritual warfare, and if folks don't think spiritual warfare is real, satan has you right where he wants you.

 

[Saintscruiser]

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Well, that sums it up in a nice package. Salvation is a gift of Grace straight from the Throne of Almighty God. Like I said in an earlier post, who is strong enough to pry you out of the Hands of God the Father and God the Son. Not man, that I can assure you.

Where it comes down to the 'rubber meeting the road,' it seems to me we're all saying the same thing. I know I am secure in my salvation. 'Oh death where is thy victory, oh grave where is thy sting.' For a child of God, people can take your house, your property, your job, your family, your life, but no one can take your salvation from you. AMEIN, AMEIN PRAISE THE LORD!!!!!! I think it's time for Lisa's banana dance!