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SS Coil: Maximum Temperature?

Discussion in 'Sub-Ohm' started by Gentle Smoke, Feb 1, 2019.

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  1. Gentle Smoke

    Gentle Smoke Senior Member

    Jan 31, 2019
    Sorry I'm physics challenged. However, when looking at Innokin's SS coils, I noticed that the box suggested a maximum of 475F. As I'm in the market for a tank for 100% VG / temperature control, it appears that this coil would be inadequate. I've looked at Kangertech and Crown IV SS coils also but, they make no recommendation. Therefore, based on stated resistance and recommended power, how do I make a judgment as to which produces more heat?
     
  2. bombastinator

    bombastinator ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 12, 2010
    MN USA
    Remember that famous book/movie farenheight 451? That’s the temperature that cellulose (paper and cotton) spontaneously burst into flames. You don’t WANT to vape at really high temps. 475 is actually really high. Makes me wonder what they made the coil out of. I personally try to keep my temps below 440 or so. The idea in vaping is to NOT burn stuff. It’s the whole point really. There’s only one time where a coil wants to go over those temps and that’s for dry burning, which coil cartridges can’t handle in the first place. That’s an RBA thing for cleaning wrapped coils only, and you sure as heck don’t breathe the nasty brown smoke that comes off a coil when it’s dry burning.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. Gentle Smoke

    Gentle Smoke Senior Member

    Jan 31, 2019
    Hello Bomb: Forgive me if I divert from my original thread but, could you diagnose a TC issue? Presently using a Vaporesso Armour Pro w/ 0.3 ohm ceramic heater. In TC mode (TCR - .0092, 38W), running at 460-470F produces feeble clouds. Alternately, running in watt mode at 30 W's turns it into a cloud machine. So what's going wrong here? I would also add that Vaporesso has a web page that says use TCR .0100 for SS (I've tried, no difference) and that this coil is actually SS come from retailers and not Vaporesso.
     
  4. Mordacai

    Mordacai Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 16, 2019
    UK
    Gentle Smoke, what coils are you using?

    If they're the Vaporesso CCell's set a custom TCR of 88, watts at 47 (its like a preheat setting) and max temperature at 250°C. If it's too hot and harsh for you, start turning the temperature down whilst vaping in increments until you get your desired vape.
     
  5. bombastinator

    bombastinator ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 12, 2010
    MN USA
    Heh. You picked the wrong guy for TC sorcery. I could never make straight TC work well for me either, so I dropped too much money on a therion and then a VTX 200 squonk so I could choose idiot mode and just use replay. All I can really tell you how to do is hit the replay button :/ There are TC masters around here, I’m just not one of them.

    I did do a bunch of reading on it a while ago (to no avail) and there were folks getting good vapes at as little as 350f. No idea how they manage it.
     
  6. Mordacai

    Mordacai Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 16, 2019
    UK
    bombastinator, at 350°F (176°C approx) I'd be hard pressed to get anything of my setup.
     
  7. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    Looking on the interwebs there are many Temperature Coefficient ratings for Stainless Steel. Given the different grades and alloy composition there is no telling which one is correct. Just keep in mind that the lower the rating the greater the calculated change in temperature which can be quite vast. The difference between 0100 as noted by Vaporesso (which I am going to assume is a rounded 0.00100) and 0.000879 as noted by Steam Engine is over 30 °C at a 0.1 ohm rise in resistance.

    Another challenge is we can not see the live resistance on many devices which I feel is an important value for calculating the coil temp. So, working with the tools we have everything becomes a best guesstimate.

    Also keep in mind with the CCell, your device is trying to calculate the temperature of the coil, not the temperature of the ceramic heating element, which will be different.
     
  8. Mordacai

    Mordacai Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 16, 2019
    UK
    TCR values vary even for the same grade of stainless steel alloy, this is caused differing compositions and manufacturing processes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Gentle Smoke

    Gentle Smoke Senior Member

    Jan 31, 2019
    Mordacai: Thanks for the advice. Tried your settings but, struck out. Did like the preheat concept. And for clarification, I'm using the GT Core cCell vs the general cCell and Euc ceramic.

    Just bought an RTA and SS316L wire yesterday. One month into vaping and I've had it with Vaporesso coils. Kanthal that oxidizes so quickly it burns your throat, ceramic that loses all flavor within an hour of use and then there's the company that isn't responsible enough to tell you about their products and treats you like you're trying to steal China's state secrets if you ask them a question. Sorry, that just slipped out of my spleen but, I feel better.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Mordacai

    Mordacai Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 16, 2019
    UK
    Gentle Smoke, I use the GT CCell's myself. The first version at 0.5 ohms is the one that I use, there's the 2 version at 0.3 ohms.

    Did you set a custom TCR value? Sorry for asking, but just need to check.

    And also have you tried to thin your liquid a little with Distilled Water, I know from experience that 70%VG/30%PG will work with them. I tried Bad Drip at 75%VG/25%VG and added 100%VG Nicotine Shots and ended up burning my CCell out, gave a weak vape with an increasing awful taste.
     
  11. Gentle Smoke

    Gentle Smoke Senior Member

    Jan 31, 2019
    Hello Mordacai: Been playing with the mod. Now running at TCR .0120, 40W, 480F. Decent smoke, mildly warm with no heat build up. Came to the conclusion that you'll never know the exact composition of the SS in the GT2 cCell so, I'm setting the temp at the boiling point of my e-liquid and adjusting the TCR for the characteristics I like.
     
  12. Mordacai

    Mordacai Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 16, 2019
    UK
    Gentle Smoke, that's the main issue with TCR. You can never know the exact value, you have to find out through trial and error (mostly error) due to material composition and manufacturing processes. So if you buy SS316L wire from 3 different manufacturers, you'll end up with 3 different TCR values.

    And I presume that you found out if you go to max farenheit and keep on going it changes to celcius.
     
  13. Gentle Smoke

    Gentle Smoke Senior Member

    Jan 31, 2019
    Just in case anyone's reading this one month later, an update on my TC issues. I appears I was complaining about a lack of heat with TC. I stated above that I finally settled on a TCR value of .0120. Clearly that's high for SS316. What I have subsequently found out is that my Vaporesso Armour Pro sets resistance on the low side, hence I run cold. What I do now is take a hit to warm the coil then reset the battery and resistance to 0.31 (0.3 coil). This allows me to push the TCR down to normal levels (0.009's) and to vape at a temperature consistent with the boiling point.
     
  14. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    I do not own the Armour but own the Polar which is based on the same board. Not a fair comparison to the Armour but have found the Polar to be quite consistent to reading resistance with both my DNA devices on my Ohm meter.

    If using the CCell, I have found through monitoring with Escribe on a DNA device that one has to run these coils much hotter than a typical SS coil. I have concluded this is due to the fact the ceramic is always going to operate at a different temperature than the SS wire that is used to heat it. And because of these differences, the device does not scale back power in the same fashion as a typical coil would when the saturation of the wick becomes less of a cooling influence.
     
  15. Gentle Smoke

    Gentle Smoke Senior Member

    Jan 31, 2019
    Hello Punk Can't say I follow everything you said. However, I do agree as to the character of the coil. Although, I'd describe the ceramic as a heat sink that needs to heat up but, not necessarily a coil that needs more power. I've learned to be satisfied with a three hit ramp up of vape density versus the instant on of a bare coil.
     
  16. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    It’s not that it needs more power. It’s that it is required to operate at a higher temperature in order to bring the ceramic to a temperature needed to vaporize the juice. The wire does not vaporize the juice, the ceramic does.

    The wire is nothing more than ~60mm of 29awg SS316L – this alone is the equivalent of a 3mm ID 5 wrap coil of the same gauge which can be vaped at as low as 8ish watts. But you require 20 to 30 watts for the wire to heat the ceramic in order to produce vapor. By using the correct TCR value for the wire, we can get a good idea of what temperature the wire is operating at. But if your goal is to control the temperature, what is the temperature of the ceramic?

    One of the objectives of Temp Control is to scale back power as your wick starts to dry in order to mitigate dry burns. In a typical coil/cotton config, your coil still hit’s your prescribed temperature. But the cooling effect of the juice, or lack of, dictates how much power is needed to reach that prescribed temperature.

    With the attached example, coil temperature is indicated in red, the applied power in green. Subject A is a fully saturated Fused Clapton. Power is consistent and does not change. You can even see how it struggles to reach the prescribed temperature because of the cooling effect the juice has. Subject B is the same Fused Clapton as the wick is drying out. It hits the prescribed temp for a very brief moment then immediately scaled back.

    Subject C is a CCell with a full tank of juice. Subject D is the same CCell in an empty tank with about 3 to 4 dry hits prior to plotting this graph. C and D are identical. Technically they should plot in the same fashion as A and B. But the power does not change because the wire is not influenced by how saturated the ceramic is. You do see it scale back but any bare wire will do the same.

    TC.jpg
     
  17. Gentle Smoke

    Gentle Smoke Senior Member

    Jan 31, 2019
    Interesting data. How did you come by it? And as an aside, I am by no means an advocate for ceramic (I gunk them up in a week with my high VG). Its just that my Cascade Baby tank takes GT Core and the Mesh Core was so biting, I went strictly with ceramic. Have a Dead Rabbit RTA supposedly arriving tomorrow.
     
  18. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    DNA devices allow you to connect them to a computer via USB and run a device monitor software. You can monitor everything from battery voltage, coil current draw, coil temps etc. Plus adjust and customize your DNA mod. If you are serious about TC, you can not beat a DNA. The software is free but DNA mods do carry a premium price.

    As for the CCell – not against using TC with these coils, but do think it is important to know how they operate. I was a huge fan of the CCell, and spoke very highly of them here on ECF. I knew of the many reports of ceramic dust but ignored them all until I found what I suspect was ceramic dust within a new blister pack.

    And if I may give DNA devices another shameless plug, another great feature with their newer 75C and 250C boards is Replay. Replay works kinda similar as TC, but instead of mucking with TCR values and temperatures, you take a few vapes and choose which one you prefer most. The device will record that vape and mimic it for all remaining vapes no matter how saturated your wick is. Works very well, especially with RTA’s that can be finicky to wick.
     
  19. madstabber

    madstabber Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    If anyone is looking for a cheap dna mod vaporrange has a quality mod with a dna 250 chip. It isn’t the newer 250c chip and therefore no “replay” but still you get great tc in a great mod for half a hundred.
    Oni 167W DNA250 TC Mod

    Oh and there’s a 10% off code as well, I think it’s happyholidays10% or something very similar
     
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