Statement from Totally Wicked

[CommaHolly]

edited to comply with mod's request.

 

[b3ast1e]

I felt like ringing in myself - of course I'm listening to it on catchup lol...

Jason really really needs to do as he says he will and step right on back - he's too involved to be responding directly to these things : Trog knows how to deal with this stuff in a forceful way (and always ends up coming across as helpful).
The worst thing you could do is become a troll that everyone loves to feed.

You really can't silence people on forums either way - if your product is decent it will speak for itself despite nay-sayers and competitor "fan boys". If you dont turn up, you cant be insulted

Well said dude. Longer the site's down, the worse it is for a community, damage is done I fear.

 

[asha23]

Well said dude. Longer the site's down, the worse it is for a community, damage is done I fear.

This is really the only issue left. That a forum has been bullied into shutdown mode.

it's really none of our business how individuals choose to do business. It's easy to judge and say "oh you should be doing this", "or that"... None of us run the business. So we should .... out... I'm happy to opine about what should have happened. I think the lesson learnt here is that when you position yourself as a multinational corporation, but still behave like a kid in a bedroom selling 2 bit cig a-likes, it doesn't work out.

At the end of the day, what we are essentially left with is the view that the richest people in our community can use their power to have an influence on what we can and can't say. Be this right or wrong. This is what most of us are still ...... off about....

The precedent is the issue now. I'm still looking at the original reason why we are all ...... off about this... IE. The boss of one of the largest E-Cig companies in the world coming on to forums, like he's still an Ebay supplier. Insulting all and sundry... Irresponsibly stating his bizarre opinions of who we are and what we think...

What's perhaps more galling is that he's just a businessman. And actually couldn't give 3 ....s about his customers. As long as he sells his products and protects his interests. Then that's the bottom line.... That he pretends to care about the rest of us in some way.. We are being utterly, utterly naive... We are socialists, in general. Most people on this forum are moving in the same direction.. We are early adopters of a new paradigm... When a capitalist throws his weight around, having had the foresight to cash in on that paradigm, which we all, individually think we have ownership of. Naturally, we are going to be affronted... I know it's not a nice thing to say, but business is business... Your average vendor couldn't give a .... about his customers. As long as he makes his bucks...

Having said that, as a generally socialist forum why do we allow these people to infiltrate us??? Yes alright, you aren't a socialist... Sorry PM me with your reasoning

So....

I'm still waiting for the apology from TW for all us folks who got caught in the crossfire... When I get this, I'll stop talking rubbish about it...

It's all I'm looking for. The admittance of error. The culpability from the CEO regarding the errors of judgement he has made regarding the whole situation.

Everyone is accountable for their actions. Even CEO's of large companies. It's not about "who was first". It's not about "I've been doing this longer than you have had hot dinners", It's about a united front against every other ....er out there who wants to put us down...

I'll be hoping for a rational statement and a retraction in some form from Totally Wicked in the next week or so. If this doesn't happen, then our hobby is totally screwed.

I thought we were all in this together. If we aren't. Then what's the frickin' point? Over the next year or so, we will have to face some serious challenges from the establishment. I think it would be great to have industry leaders on our side. The worst case scenario is to have one of the most successful E-Cig businesses out there treating the community at large like we are the enemy... If this happens then it's already over. And quite frankly they will be first against the wall.

Maybe TW are above this in some way. And judging by Jason Cropper's opinions that I have read, he really believes that somehow him and his company are .... I really don't think they are.. No matter what egos are at play and no matter how big you may think you are, all you are running at the moment is a cottage industry...

We should be presenting a united front. Even if we have our differences of opinion. The wider world doesn't give a toss about this.

Essentially. If we don't put across a united front. The establishment will divide and conquer us into obscurity. If, when the time comes, we can't get along. Then it's going to be very easy for the establishment to put us down. Especially if we are too busy fighting each other internally to put up any kind of fight.

Look at the long term. Not the short term internal beefs that may arise amongst a bunch of kids in a playground. While we are fighting each other. Some other twit is nicking our dinner money.

I understand TW's standpoint that they are looking after their interests. However. Without community support, they have no interests and they'll be back to E-Bay, selling memory sticks that don't work. I'd like to see them taking a more pro-active stance rather than this barrel of bull.... that they have hit us all with over the last few days.

It's just so disappointing and it really makes me sad that all certain people care about is protecting their slightly tenuous business interests.. IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT MAKING A BUCK.. IT'S ABOUT SAVING LIVES...

Because let's face it... If the governments in your country decide to impose sanctions on the things you are selling, then we are all, collectively screwed... Even you, Totally Wicked... You'll be more screwed than most... The bigger the company. The bigger the losses incurred when the fit hits the shan. That's a fact.

TW will not survive this scenario. Nor will any other vendor. No matter what (made up) consumer groups, (unrecognised) trade groups or (naive) big-assed businesses say... All it takes is a global ban on pharma nicotine and we are all ....ed. If that .... happens. Any petty beefs about antitrust will quickly become irrelevant. So let's try and get some perspective here, eh?

Inter-personal legal action means nothing at all in the face of the establishment laying down laws banning what we do. So come on. Let's try and move in the same direction here. Lets make the e-cig, cottage industry paradigm be better than the paradigm the establishment want us to follow.

Screw your shareholders. Down with hairshoulders.

Maybe I'm just naive and was expecting too much... I don't know.

And just for the record. And to take the piss. And to highlight how stupid this all is..

I think That mod is ..... I think the bloke who made it is a .... and I also think that the juice they sell tastes like piss.

Plus I think Coca Cola is a .... drink. So sue me.

(and no Jason. I'm not talking about Totally Wicked products. It's a generic "mod" and a generic "bloke" and generic "piss tasting" juice - Before you get all lawyer-y on my ...)

.. No really... It's not even a veiled piss take.. I'm not talking about you, or your company here...

.. Seriously... i'm not.

.. Oh frick.. I can't win... Delete me, moderators...

I do mean it about Coca Cola tho... it's rubbish as a drink.

 

[Theken]

What is funny about upset customers is that, if you look back to the original problem, it was probably very easy to remedy. Reading over the negative (and positive) reviews on the ECF forums has guided every single one of my purchases online.

I can almost guarantee not 1 new customer read all this drama and thought "hmm I am going to go give them my money". It costs far more to get a new customer than it does to keep an existing one and it seems, to me, TW is just throwing them away.

 

[Iffy]

... but could be considered libelous under UK law.

Like I've said before, how do I get on da enemy list? This is the only time of year I'd want to spend any time in da UK, expenses paid of course!

 

[Mezzum]

TW has lost another customer... Well done.

 

[anorth_uk]

Well said dude. Longer the site's down, the worse it is for a community, damage is done I fear.

It's all down to UKV's admin team's willingness to carry on atm, they may have had all their fight knocked out of them

 

[Toby]

The boss of one of the largest E-Cig companies in the world coming on to forums, like he's still an Ebay supplier. Insulting all and sundry... Irresponsibly stating his bizarre opinions of who we are and what we think...

To be fair, I think that insults eBay sellers, who as a whole are perfectly decent ordinary people.
(I used to sell on eBay btw).

As long as he sells his products and protects his interests. Then that's the bottom line.... That he pretends to care about the rest of us in some way.. We are being utterly, utterly naive...

I'm afraid there is almost certainly some truth in this...

I was (briefly) discussing this (community values) with Jason on UKV (without insults etc. of course!).

I wish I could quote it; but unless someone can find it in the cache, I can't atm...
(I think it is on the thread where someone posted the YT video of Jason pretending to be the guy who used an e-cig on the M6 Terror Toll bus)

What he was essentially saying is he has a different opinion from most other e-cig users, of what is the definition "our" industry...

And from a business or any other perspective, that is his prerogative of course...

 

[Huffelpuff]

It's sad that a forum designed to support the vaping community is negatively affected. We are like family - to bring a lawsuit against the forum is deplorable. This may have blown over if not for the pot constantly being stirred by TW.

 

[ableton]

It's all down to UKV's admin team's willingness to carry on atm, they may have had all their fight knocked out of them

Then someone else should take over.

I also think there is much confusion over who the ECITA acts on behalf of. They work for the vendors and suppliers not the end consumer. I feel that they should have no connection with UKV. The ECCA are the consumers representatives and it is them that should get our support.

I've taken a very close look at the ECITA website and I'm not convinced they have the level of professionalism to lead up such an important role. The ECITA are generating an income of approx 120k a year from vendors and I can't see any evidence that they have implemented their own research. Where does the money go? Could take a look at their records on company house to find out.

Don't get me wrong I do feel there needs to be trade representation but it has to be sound. I sense a 5 year old could've written their code of practice. It's interesting to take a look at their joining criteria particularly number 1 something to do with confidentiality. This organization seems a bit to amateurish for my liking.

We should all get behind the ECCA as users and leave the industry to get on with it with our voices making an impact.

Legislation is around the corner. Ultimately it will hit the consumers much harder than the vendors. They will still sell their products albeit in smaller quantities and at any price people will still switch to vaping as it will lead to saving their lives.

Just my honest opinion. Tin hats on.

 

[Toby]

I also think there is much confusion over who the ECITA acts on behalf of. They work for the vendors and suppliers not the end consumer. I feel that they should have no connection with UKV.

There should of course be greater transparency about all this, especially after what has happened...

The only connection that I know of, between ECITA and UKV, is that Crossbow is a moderator of UKV, and works for ECITA, and is partner of Katherine Devlin (who is operations manager of ECITA).

Katherine also posts her ECITA blogs on UKV forum.

 

[Snowball88]

All of this is a shame. And quite redicilous as well.
I'm a new vaper and UKV was my new water hole for the past 3 weeks, it is friendly and full of information and help.
I was online when all the first threads about the Oddysey and Jason Croppers youtube video emerged, and I posted in one.

What i percepted was reasonable posts, concerns, opinions and discussion. Yes, some of them could be seen as going too far, depending on what you think is "over the top". When Jason Cropper himself joined the discussion, everything escelated to the worse. Even if there was negative reviews of products or statements of the company he owns, it was not one-sided. An equal amount of posts/posters, or perhaps more so, said positive things about them. From my time at ukv i never noticed any overall "smearing campaign" or organized anti-TW propaganda of any sort.
If there are individuals posting on a largely anonymous forum, that has had bad experience of a company or heard of such; they will say it. If you then respond to this with such contempt and rudeness as I saw Jason Cropper do, they will respond even harsher the next time.
Simple knowledge.

I beleive Mr Cropper is equally responsible for the potential libelous or slanderous comments that were posted.
I think he baited, as did other posters bait him. Then to respond with legal measures to blatantly censor opinions is wrong in my opinion. I believe anything should be allowed to be said, with as much swearwords or inappropiate comments and words you would like to use. Other people can make up their own mind if you are serious and posted with substance in those words, or not. Also, i like rough language and have a bit of a foul mouth myself (well, online I do, though i try to not insult unecessary)

This is really bad for the community overall, and don't think this can't happen to ECF. Could just as well have went down here. Now luckily ecf seems to moderate a bit stricter and keeps it clean (gj mods!) and thank god for that, otherwise who knows what the outcome could be in the end.

I wish I could quote it; but unless someone can find it in the cache, I can't atm...
(I think it is on the thread where someone posted the YT video of Jason pretending to be the guy who used an e-cig on the M6 Terror Toll bus)

What he was essentially saying is he has a different opinion from most other e-cig users, of what is the definition "our" industry...
And from a business or any other perspective, that is his prerogative of course...

See my quote below, original post #111 on page 12, perhaps you can find it.

I think people need some background on this to draw conclusions of their own so without breaking any rules I hope:

the vapefest poll :

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...e-for-the-community-be-allowed-into-vapefest/

and the odyssey review that seemed to kick it all off :

page 1/ page 2 page 3 page 4 page 5 page 6 page 7 page 8 page 9 page 10

and the m6 video thread with all his conspiracy jargon :

Page 1 page 2 page 3 page 4 page 5 page 6 page 7 page 8 page 9 page 10 page 11

Just listening to the click bang podcast , seems to me his beef is with ECITA and the conflict of interest there and UKV has just been caught up in another conspiracy theory..

Thanks for linking Apostl.
If you are reading this thread and wondering what the fuss is about, or takes Jasons Croppers words of what happened without knowing how he acted, please read his posts that's in the threads linked. His alias is Pillbox

 

[KDude]

I don't even know what a "sequential" is. Or if I'm supposed to be insulted about it.

It's nutty though. Reading some of the posts sounds like Mel Gibson from Conspiracy Theory. I wouldn't even stay in the same room with someone like that, let alone give money to someone like that. It's just kind of disturbing, even if I don't know what any of it means.

 

[Toby]

Thanks Snowball; but from briefly looking at the links I can't see his definition of "our" industry in there.. it must have been a different thread...

 

[anorth_uk]

tbh, I think this ECITA & UKV link is a complete smokescreen, in 8 months on UKV I've never seen anything that would lead me to think there were any undue things happening to the users, and knowing a fair few of the members, they would soon be up in arms spouting off if there was anything happening.

In the UK, we seem to try the self regulation route to keep the government out of things, when or if that fails it normally ends up with their heavy hand and no knowledge of the subject screwing things up for the rest of us.

Yes there is a subgroup of UKV (and here as well) that don't like the chinese mass produced items (I'm one of them), yes we all probably started off with these but have since moved on, it doesn't really help the issue when there have been some recent posts of eastern mass produced PV's that look just like some of GG's products, that makes us even more anti the mass produced stuff



There has also been a lot of history between several people that was before my time as a vaper that has tainted anything that they say or do now.

Have I brought stuff from TW - Yes
will I go there again - No
would I reccomend them - No

 

[Snowball88]

Toby, if you remember the threads name (perhaps check your browsing history) and google it, you might find a cached page of it.

And i also beleive there were other threads with posts in them with more insults and stuff. Exactly what was said or
the thread titles i dont know, nor do i remember.

 

[ByeByeCoffinNails]

Boy have I read a lot tonight. Wading through some of this stuff, I'm glad I have my gumboots on.

From what I have seen, what happened at UKV was initially a bit of good-natured robust debate before the thread with the 'Dave' video went up. That thread seemed less offensive than the stuff that got posted here on ECF. On the other hand, I don't live where the 7/7 attacks happened so I'm not sensitive to that particular date (which naturally many people in Britain are) so I do not know what was going through their minds.

How that thread escalated to what occurred later seems to be an off the chart quantum leap- I look forward to seeing the contents of that gap if anyone has them.

It is very unfortunate that despite what was said on Click Bang, UKV isn't up and running and I am sad that the UKV forum community has been scattered hither and yon

I don't know if anyone here is familiar with the term 'political football'. It's sad to see so many caught in the middle.

Love to All

 

[Toby]

tbh, I think this ECITA & UKV link is a complete smokescreen, in 8 months on UKV I've never seen anything that would lead me to think there were any undue things happening to the users...

This is part of the problem with what is happening here...

What is true?
And what are the exact accusations?

I have been asked to clarify.

1. Admin on UKVapers=Tom Pruen (Crossbow) He moderates and virtually runs the forum.
2. He draws nearly £3k a month from ECITA
3. He does not nor do most members know his conflict of interest. IE He subtly, sometimes not so hassles vendors who do not pay up so to speak.. By joining his GF and his organisation.
4. Certain members of the community..The In Club are not moderated and allowed to post more than destructive comments about none club member companies.
5. ECITA run by Devlin and Pruen, have been frightening flavour houses making them decide not to sell to other ecig vendors other than the company she is a director of with her Brother IE decadent vapours.
6. ECITA Lies about Tw and because we do not need or would ever want to join their club.. Creates bad press with organisations like the NMO against TW. Only thing is once they visit us they recognise we are soooo far removed from Devlins picture we get told exactly what was said.

Its un-savoury but true. Like it or not i am posting facts.

TW

Whereas I know for a fact that many of these simply are not true!

Here is Crossbow's defence - #258

A rather large number of allegations about me have been made by an electronic cigarette vendor probably best described as infamous.
Responding to these where they are posted is impossible, with one set being on UKVapers, which is currently closed, and the other on his own forum, where expressing a dissenting opinion is impossible (as quite a few have learned during the course of the last few days).

1.Admin on UKVapers=Tom Pruen (Crossbow) He moderates and virtually runs the forum.

That is indeed my name. I am a moderator on UKVapers, and have been since before my association with ECITA. I am certain that this assertion that I run the forum would not be supported by the rest of the moderation team!

2. He draws nearly £3k a month from ECITA

I don’t earn anything like £3k a month in total, and most of the money I do earn does not come from ECITA. A significant portion of my income is from Decadent Vapours, to whom I provide advice on technical matters, such as the recent upgrades to the DV facilities, and testing of products. I do not think that anyone could allege that DV have received favourable treatment on UKV.

3. He does not nor do most members know his conflict of interest. IE He subtly, sometimes not so hassles vendors who do not pay up so to speak.. By joining his GF and his organisation.

When I first joined ECITA, I made the rest of the forum admins aware of this, and have always tried to separate my actions as a UKV mod from my involvement in ECITA.
I have from time to time been outspoken on the need for better legal compliance in the industry, which is what I assume this refers to, but I certainly haven’t prevented any vendors posting, or modified their posts, or in any way prevent their free access to the forum. There is a reason why UKV was the largest UK centric e-cig forum, and it was not an overly controlling or censorious moderation team.

4. Certain members of the community..The In Club are not moderated and allowed to post more than destructive comments about none club member companies.

Given that some ECITA members have been given poor reviews on UKV, while others thrive, I have no idea what this refers to.

5. ECITA run by Devlin and Pruen, have been frightening flavour houses making them decide not to sell to other ecig vendors other than the company she is a director of with her Brother IE decadent vapours.

One flavour company contacted ECITA with questions about supplying flavourings to the company in question. We were unable to comment on their concerns, as we have no knowledge of the facilities and procedures that a non-member company has available to them. The company expressed to us their concerns about supplying their products in concentrated form, and this may be the basis of their unwillingness to supply them.

6. ECITA Lies about Tw and because we do not need or would ever want to join their club.. Creates bad press with organisations like the NMO against TW. Only thing is once they visit us they recognise we are soooo far removed from Devlins picture we get told exactly what was said.

ECITA suggested that this company address their possible non-compliance with the RoHS directive, and provided considerable free advice, but the directors of ECITA (which do not include either myself or Katherine) declined to accept this company as members prior to an audit, as they had grave concerns about the company’s legal compliance, and commitment to ongoing compliance. I think there is some bitterness over this.

To put these allegations in context, the same person is the author of posts about aliens arriving in sunbeams and a statement that the Olympics will be attacked with a nuclear weapon.

Personally, I do not consider him a reliable source of information, and his actions against UKV amount to little more than bullying.

 

[rolygate]

@Ableton
I think ECITA probably does a better job than the impression their website may initially give. The problem for most website owners is that they are too close to their site to see the issues, and they aren't web professionals. ECITA after all is the best-organised trade association in the world, although by comparison with TVECA's website you would not come to that conclusion. The trouble is, it's all about image these days - perhaps far too much.

ECCA certainly needs a lot more support. You might consider attending their open meetings and volunteering to help; or donating, if you can't assist in any way:
ECCA UK Open Meetings

We desperately need more numbers, and more active participation, if we are to resist the huge commercial forces ranged against us; and this applies in every country. Take this statement in parliament recently by the SoS Health: instead of recognising a miraculous new way to reduce smoking prevalence and save a great number of lives, the statement reads like a pharma front group's propaganda attack on e-cigarettes - with a dark undertone hinting at unknown dangers and the need for strict regulation. As it was most likely written for him by his PPS on advice from the DoH, we can see how regulatory capture works right up to the top: here is a demonstration of how government works for corporate interests.
Electronic Cigarettes: 10 Jul 2012: Hansard Written Answers and Statements - TheyWorkForYou

Look who's pulling the strings:
Pharmaceutical industry fraud fines reach new record level - Blog

ECCA has an article up now about this parliamentary statement and how it is so wrong in every possible way:
Parliamentary question on e-cigarettes - Blog

 

[tj99959]

The reality is that "turf wars" are bound to happen in every trade, and trade associations need to be run by the trade. The only way an association becomes long term successful is by dealing with these problems in a professional manner through arbitration or legal council.
What has happened here is TW chosen to bring us the consumer into the fray, and the result is that everyone has gotten hurt. The result of that will be that vendors and manufacturers are about to learn that ultimately it is the consumer that controls the market, not the association, manufacturer, or the vendor.

I will add this:
Here in the US I only buy from vendors that support CSAA.