Statement from Totally Wicked

[Papa Lazarou]

Recently posted up at the Totally Wicked forum. I'm assuming it's OK to post here as it states a true copy of the letter should be published at UKV once it's (hopefully) back up and running.

Also there's an updated statement at UKV. http://ukvapers.com/

EDIT just noted the forum software shrinks the image so if you can't see it here' a link to the image on Photobucket - http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Astrecks/Ecigs/Farley3.jpg

 

[recidivus]

It will be easier and cheaper to put up a blanket ban on posts/keywords containing tw and jasons name/handle (and variations of). Asking an active forum to moderate for one specific vendor/person, on a case by case basis, is unrealistic and costly.

Then all you need is a moderator keeping track of those keys and hitting delete with explanation given.

Eventually you'd end up with no sites willing to discuss, life goes on, and everyone got what they wanted.

 

[Jixchel]

I have to ask recidivus, the photo of your avatar, is it a photoshopped image of a pug and a rabbit, or are there really rabbits that look like that? Cause if there are, I want one LOL

 

[Spazmelda]

It will be easier and cheaper to put up a blanket ban on posts/keywords containing tw and jasons name/handle (and variations of). Asking an active forum to moderate for one specific vendor/person, on a case by case basis, is unrealistic and costly.

Then all you need is a moderator keeping track of those keys and hitting delete with explanation given.

Eventually you'd end up with no sites willing to discuss, life goes on, and everyone got what they wanted.

I think that's what I'd do if I were them (or any other vaping website). I'd consider carefully whether I wanted TW to be mentioned in any light (positive, negative, or neutral) what with their history of threatening litigation. My opinion, of course, but I wouldn't want that threat hanging over my head if I were a site owner.

 

[oldsoldier]

I think that's what I'd do if I were them (or any other vaping website). I'd consider carefully whether I wanted TW to be mentioned in any light (positive, negative, or neutral) what with their history of threatening litigation. My opinion, of course, but I wouldn't want that threat hanging over my head if I were a site owner.

This "threat" always hangs over site owners of any site that publishes any material that may be controversial or affect someones business in an adverse way. I received my first take down notice and legal threat for trademark dilution in mid 2001. I was being sued by the owners of a certain trademarked purple dinosaur because I had an animated gif on my site with said purple dinosaur's head exploding in a shower of digital gore. They cited brand and trademark dilution and a bunch of other rubbish, but in the end I removed the material because it was not worth spending my entire net worth to defend my right to post a cheesy gif on my website.

Sometimes site owners have to pick their battles carefully because any litigation costs time and money.

 

[tj99959]

This "threat" always hangs over site owners of any site that publishes any material that may be controversial or affect someones business in an adverse way.

Even tho' it is the individual poster that is liable. I can't think of a reason why any forum would not have a "not responsible for content" clause in their TOS.

 

[oldsoldier]

I'd like to expand a little on what roly said earlier. I'm not from the UK so my opinion here is "neutral" since I don't have dealings with the UK industry's players.

There is a big difference between consumer and trade organizations. What a trade organization lobbies for is in the best interests of the trade. This is often in the best interest of the consumer because the trade is trying to make money and cannot do so if they are over-regulated or overtaxed. However lets be clear that the interests of the trade and those of the consumer are not always the same.

In this early stage of industry maturity, a well organized and transparently run trade organization is an important thing in all countries. The reason being that they are uniquely equipped and funded to fight government regulation. Allied with consumer organizations they can and will make a difference in the battle to keep vaping from be declared illegal or regulated and taxed out of existence.

Now fast forward 15 years...

The battle has been won and now you have to take what trade organizations want with a grain of salt. As an example: the auto industry often lobbies the government to delay implementing mandated safety and fuel efficiency changes. This is obviously for the advantage of the trade not that of the consumers, though they say that if forced to implement prices will skyrocket, etc ...

 

[smoklessatlast]

I'd consider carefully whether I wanted TW to be mentioned in any light (positive, negative, or neutral)

I agree but where would they be in 6 months when that vendor realises that they are losing out by not being mentioned at all? I've only been vaping for just over 3 months and I can't believe my 'progression' is anything unusual. I started out with cigalikes from a marketing campaign and didn't know anything else existed. I hit the net and found UKV so lurked there for ages, learned a lot about the subject and crucially, vendors. I wouldn't have known TW existed if weren't for UKV and until this last week the only reasons I have for not trying them out have been price and that awful branding. It simply doesn't appeal to me just as clothes with garish logos don't appeal to me. Nothing on UKV put me off them. I've probably tried out about 5 vendors, some of them part of this ECITA thing and some not. All of them were discovered through UKV.

 

[CommaHolly]

well, IMHO, any SHRED of a possibility they had of being forgiven by the general public just went down the toilet with that letter.

 

[oldsoldier]

Even tho' it is the individual poster that is liable. I can't think of a reason why any forum would not have a "not responsible for content" clause in their TOS.

The "safe harbor" clause does not fully apply for forums and bloggers in the same way it does for ISPs. The status is still in a gray area. This is one of the things that EFF is helping to fight for.

And of course the laws vary from country to country so there is always a gray area and loopholes for litigation.

 

[ableton]

I'd like to expand a little on what roly said earlier. I'm not from the UK so my opinion here is "neutral" since I don't have dealings with the UK industry's players.

There is a big difference between consumer and trade organizations. What a trade organization lobbies for is in the best interests of the trade. This is often in the best interest of the consumer because the trade is trying to make money and cannot do so if they are over-regulated or overtaxed. However lets be clear that the interests of the trade and those of the consumer are not always the same.

In this early stage of industry maturity, a well organized and transparently run trade organization is an important thing in all countries. The reason being that they are uniquely equipped and funded to fight government regulation. Allied with consumer organizations they can and will make a difference in the battle to keep vaping from be declared illegal or regulated and taxed out of existence.

Now fast forward 15 years...

The battle has been won and now you have to take what trade organizations want with a grain of salt. As an example: the auto industry often lobbies the government to delay implementing mandated safety and fuel efficiency changes. This is obviously for the advantage of the trade not that of the consumers, though they say that if forced to implement prices will skyrocket, etc ...

Perfectly put with words I'd struggle to find.

 

[anorth_uk]

You also have the added bonus of in the UK it doesn't matter where the server is, if a UK member put's anything online that can be read by another UK person, that is about a UK product the OP is open to litigation

In some areas our system hasn't evolved from the dark ages

 

[ableton]

This is part of the problem with what is happening here...

What is true?
And what are the exact accusations?

Hi

Ok there are 6 points. You say you know some are not true. Please tell us which are not true.

I think we also need to analyse Crossbow's response and use of words. He has not actually denied receiving any income from ECITA. There is much more to this than meets the eye.

@roly

It's not so much about the look of their website but more the standard and quality of the information it presents and the ethos behind their exsistance. I'm not suggesting the staff at ECITA are not doing a great job. What I am saying is that this organization will not and can't be globally influential unless they get many more vendors onside. I don't think this will happen anytime soon until they have a very strong strategy in place backed up with independent research. They are pulling in perhaps 120k a year. Would it not be a fine gesture if they donated 20% to the ECCA. Then I'd see a plan coming together.

Who is on the board at the ECITA? What does their balance sheet look like? Where does the money go?

I have a friend who can get access to companies house records. I'll try and get more information.

Just to be clear. I take no sides. I'm not bothered about mud slinging. I'm for moving forward. I will certainly join the ECCA and make a donation. Especially after hearing the sensibility Sam provided.

I also think we need to get behind Jacqui and the team at UKV and help/support them anyway we can. But first I feel we need a clean sweep and investigation of ECITA.

IVapour. Do you pay ECITA £600 a month? If not why not?

Peace



Whereas I know for a fact that many of these simply are not true!

 

[tj99959]

But first I feel we need a clean sweep and investigation of ECITA.

Only, is ECITA a trade association, or a consumer association, and who's business is it to be doing a clean sweep?

 

[oldsoldier]

Only, is ECITA a trade association, or a consumer association, and who's business is it to be doing a clean sweep?

ECITA is a trade organization. It clearly states so in the name and on their website.

 

[ableton]

well, IMHO, any SHRED of a possibility they had of being forgiven by the general public just went down the toilet with that letter.

Why? They are not asking for forgiveness. They are clearly spelling it out. Put all the name calling and irrational comments aside for a moment and look at it. Whether we like it or not, whatever side we take, UKV can live without TW. I really don't see what the problem is. Hurt feelings? Pride? It's all BS and we should really get on with business as usual.

We all moan about free speech and our right to reply. Try living in China, Burma or Syria. Then you'd have a point.

Much more important injustices going on around the planet without this nonsense

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Much more important injustices going on around the planet without this nonsense

I think we can all agree on that

 

[ableton]

Only, is ECITA a trade association, or a consumer association, and who's business is it to be doing a clean sweep?

The consumers. And trust me. The legislators will be looking closely at who they will negotiate and consult with.

There needs to be complete transparency and a joined up approach to campaigning. Vendors fund the ECITA ( or whoever) and the ECITA should part fund the ECCA.

The guys at ECCA are all volunteers I understand. they could use some financial support.

 

[ableton]

Code of Conduct
ECITA members shall be required to abide by the following:
• Fully respect the confidentiality of Association business, documentation, and all other correspondences or information within
the Association’s domain;
• Treat fellow members with respect at all times in all
correspondence, forum posts and/or meetings of any kind. Abuse will not be tolerated, and will be regarded as a breach of this Code;
• Seek to maintain sufficiently high standards of business practice
and inter-business dealings across Members to ensure the ongoing credibility and reputation of the Association and the Electronic
Cigarette Industry;
• Avoid publicising any negative comment, marketing claim or other
statement about any fellow Member of the Association, while retaining individual business rights to operate competitively;
• Fully CHIP-compliant packaging/labelling on all nicotine components of products, and full compliance with any and all necessary
legislative statutes, as amended from time to time;
• Payment Card Industry/Data Security Standards (PCI/DSS) Compliance & certification for payment processing;
• Businesses must be registered with the Information Commissioner’s Office. This is a legal requirement for online retail businesses;
• Carefully avoid claiming any health benefits from using the product – wording & terminology to be agreed;
• Clearly state not for sale to under 18s, and ensure safeguards in
place to prevent sale to minors – wording to be agreed;

Not exactly the most convincing code of conduct. And their ISE is not much better

The Industry Standard of Excellence

Seriously big money for someone who can really think this trade representation thing through.

 

[tj99959]

ECITA is a trade organization. It clearly states so in the name and on their website.

The consumers. And trust me. The legislators will be looking closely at who they will negotiate and consult with.

Now you see why I posted that question.

I belonged to an automotive trade association for many-many years, and quite frankly consumer participation was never invited. They have free access to the records required by law, and that's it.
However the consumer reaped many benefits from that association. Without it they would be worrying about how to install air bags, emission controls, and the like in their freshly restored 1910 Runabout!