Steeping - can *anyone* explain the science behind this?

[AlexPerth]

Hi there,

I just found out about this 'steeping' method that people recommend when getting new juice.

I'm extremely skeptical about this.... what is happening? Why is this needed?

I saw some theory about diffusion and it was hardly convincing from a scientific point of view.

I can only think of a couple of other possibilities:

- Exposing the liquid to air allows oxidation of the nicotine and flavourings
- Exposure to air allows the introduction of bacteria into the juice

Any other ideas? Or the whole thing could be placebo!

 

[NCC]

I'm sorry to say I can't explain it scientifically. However, there is an undeniable change in both color and flavor.

 

[venkman]

what's wrong with the diffusion theory? seems pretty plausible to me.

 

[ropetrick]

I was skeptical too until I got some RY4 that was hideous until it sat for a bit.

Is it some kind of slow chemical reaction (your oxidation, perhaps... though I think it often works in sealed bottles)? Is it a function of evaporation (seems unlikely, since no substantial volume changes are reported)?

Anyway, I'd like to know, too. Seems this community is full of electrical engineers, but few chemists. Alas, I'm neither.

 

[AlexPerth]

There are hundreds of people posting on this board claiming that steeping makes a difference. Thats enough for me to be convinced that *something* is taking place in the juice. The point of this thread is finding out what it is!

Any chemists out there care to comment?

 

[AlexPerth]

what's wrong with the diffusion theory? seems pretty plausible to me.

It is utterly implausible scientifically. Test it yourself if you like. Get some PG or VG and add a few drops of food colouring to it. You can watch it diffuse in front of you. Want to speed the process up? Give it a shake. Total diffusion in a few seconds.

 

[Brego]

Hi there,

I just found out about this 'steeping' method that people recommend when getting new juice.

I'm extremely skeptical about this.... what is happening? Why is this needed?

I saw some theory about diffusion and it was hardly convincing from a scientific point of view.

I can only think of a couple of other possibilities:

- Exposing the liquid to air allows oxidation of the nicotine and flavourings
- Exposure to air allows the introduction of bacteria into the juice

Any other ideas? Or the whole thing could be placebo!

No, it's not a placebo effect. It is real. When the various flavoring components are mixed together in the carrier (PG or VG) there are chemical reactions that take place that produce secondary, tertiary and quaternary flavor compounds. The chemical reactions take place at an exponential rate, rapidly at first with lots of flavor and color change and then slowing down markedly with the changes occurring more slowly . It could be thought of as a curing process. The curing probably never stops, the changes just get tinier and tinier over time.

Now that I have said all that, this does not apply to every flavor of juice, just most. Some flavors (e.g. FSUSA RY4) are pretty darn good when they first arrive. Others, not so much. I have stopped taste-testing new flavors when they first arrive. I steep everything.

When my flavors arrive I de-cap the bottles (drip tip too) and let them stand open for 48 hours. Then I re-cap them and let them stand for 5 more days. Then I vape them. I have only purchased FSUSA juices and this has worked for me every time.

(As an aside, I want to tell you a story. The curing of newly mixed flavors doesn't always work out. I worked in the food industry for a long time doing R&D. I knew a guy that worked for a large well-known maker of microwave popcorn. He developed a garlic-onion flavored variety using liquid flavors. He sent us a case of prototypes and we thought it was awesome and looked forward to it appearing in the stores. It never made it. It turns out that after the flavors had cured together in the product for about 3 weeks they destroyed each other and all the flavor was gone. We had eaten the prototypes so fast that we didn't find that out. Doing his R&D correctly, this guy I knew performed shelf-life studies and discovered the problem. Oh well.)

 

[NCC]

When my flavors arrive I de-cap the bottles (drip tip too) and let them stand open for 48 hours.

Can someone explain the purpose of letting the liquid breathe like this? Is the juice gassing off something undesireable? Or, is it absorbing something from the atmosphere? I've seen it mentioned quite a bit ... what is the reasoning behind it?

FWIW, I so far have not done this with my juice ... yet, the results of steeping have seemed perfectly acceptable.

 

[Brego]

Can someone explain the purpose of letting the liquid breathe like this? Is the juice gassing off something undesireable? Or, is it absorbing something from the atmosphere? I've seen it mentioned quite a bit ... what is the reasoning behind it?

FWIW, I so far have not done this with my juice ... yet, the results of steeping have seemed perfectly acceptable.

Allowing the bottles to stand 48 hrs uncapped causes the curing to happen faster due to oxidation. You could leave the bottles capped during the steeping, but the flavors will take longer to improve.

 

[NCC]

Thanks Brego. Any empirical evidence this is true? What is oxidizing?
Seems that there would be plenty of oxygen in the air space in a closed bottle.
In any case, I'm not going with the open bottle routine. Just doesn't appeal to me.
With the quantity of juice I've got on hand, I'm not in THAT much of a rush, LOL.

 

[guitardedmark]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...one-got-scientific-explaination-steeping.html

 

[NCC]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...one-got-scientific-explaination-steeping.html

Interesting thread, thanks. I had a few posts there myself. But, some very informative stuff was posted after I lost track of it. Post by kushka (#22 & #24) grabbed me right away.

 

[Brego]

Thanks Brego. Any empirical evidence this is true? What is oxidizing?
Seems that there would be plenty of oxygen in the air space in a closed bottle.
In any case, I'm not going with the open bottle routine. Just doesn't appeal to me.
With the quantity of juice I've got on hand, I'm not in THAT much of a rush, LOL.

Yes, there is empirical info available but you would have to read through the flavor chemistry journals at a good university library to find it.

That being said, there are flavoring ingredients added to e-juices that don't really have any flavor of their own, but are added to aid the other flavors and vape production and that technology is so new that not much is known about exactly how it works.

 

[Vapenstein]

All I know is that a couple BWB juices that I thought were just ok ended up being Vapenstein It's Alive! Award winners after about 3 weeks of aging. Recently I told the owner of a popular juice vendor that I thought his juice was gutless and feminine. (This after being told this juice didn't need to age, otherwise I would have waited) He professionally kept his cool and persuaded me to wait 48 hours. I just couldn't imagine that kind of 180 in a juice in 48 hrs. Guess what? 48 hrs later the juice was good. I felt like a jack@55. Never make that mistake again. Good juice takes exposure to the atmosphere and time.

 

[AlexPerth]

Interesting thread, thanks. I had a few posts there myself. But, some very informative stuff was posted after I lost track of it. Post by kushka (#22 & #24) grabbed me right away.

Yeah I looked through that thread myself and wasnt satisfied with the answers. Kushka's point about nicotine being oxidised to cotamine is really the only useful conclusion. I wonder if all these people realise that leaving the cap off their juice destroys the nicotine in it?

So the question remains - what kind of reactions are taking place between the flavour compounds and perhaps the PG/VG?

Indeed, suppose these reactions are taking place - why not make up the juice without the nicotine, then allow whatever magical steeping effects to take place, and *then* add the nicotine? I think its very unlikely the nicotine is reacting with anything besides O2. This would at least shed some light on whether or not the reduction in nicotine is the primary effect of steeping.

I think I might give this experiment a crack next time I get some flavor doublers ordered.

 

[guitardedmark]

Yeah I looked through that thread myself and wasnt satisfied with the answers. Kushka's point about nicotine being oxidised to cotamine is really the only useful conclusion. I wonder if all these people realise that leaving the cap off their juice destroys the nicotine in it?

So the question remains - what kind of reactions are taking place between the flavour compounds and perhaps the PG/VG?

Indeed, suppose these reactions are taking place - why not make up the juice without the nicotine, then allow whatever magical steeping effects to take place, and *then* add the nicotine? I think its very unlikely the nicotine is reacting with anything besides O2. This would at least shed some light on whether or not the reduction in nicotine is the primary effect of steeping.

I think I might give this experiment a crack next time I get some flavor doublers ordered.

Too shay! I'm anticipating your findings!