Strange Story of Popcorn Lung

[zoiDman]

I think in the end Mike Petro may be correct in believing it may ultimately come down to temps used. I don't understand all of it, but enough that it seems a valid theory.

Just a Clarification:

The work that Mike has done is in regards to the Formation of Formaldehyde and Acetaldehydes in e-Cigarette vapor.

And in those regards, Yes... Coil Temperature is the Major Factor.

New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

 

[Letitia]

I think temp may be a factor across all spectrums of vaping. Flavorings as well. But maybe not in our favor with flavoring. Still so many unknown factors, vaping is still young. Well not young at all, but now prevalent enough to warrant further studies.

 

[Kent C]

Texas man claims vaping gave him popcorn lung - Vaping360

"The KCEN article claims that Lowrance has “been treated by some of the best lung doctors in the world,” but none of the doctors were quoted in the article.

The story says that, “although they cannot say definitively that his condition came as a result of vaping — simply because there is not enough information available yet about long-term effects — they all agree it was most likely the cause.”

That’s disturbing. If some of the best lung doctors in the world “all agree” that vaping is “most likely” the cause — based on guessing — why weren’t they quoted in the article? If this is all true, reporter Chris Rogers might earn a Pulitzer Prize for exposing a real danger of vaping. This would become a recognized hazard, rather than just a fantasy of fact-averse anti-vaping activists and a dream of personal injury lawyers."

 

[Letitia]

The ANTZ are probably drooling.

 

[halfempty]

That's a pretty All Encompassing statement.

What Numerical Data are you basing this on?

I don't remember the article, it was a while back when I was doing a lot of research when the deeming was first announced. It used the numbers from one of the many studies of cigarette smoke, and the studies from the Orville Redenbacher plant.

There was also an interesting calculation that it would take over a hundred years of vaping to equal the amount of diacetyl that a popcorn plant worker was exposed to in a single shift before they started taking precautions. If I find that article I'll make sure to post a link.

 

[zoiDman]

I don't remember the article, it was a while back when I was doing a lot of research when the deeming was first announced. It used the numbers from one of the many studies of cigarette smoke, and the studies from the Orville Redenbacher plant.

There was also an interesting calculation that it would take over a hundred years of vaping to equal the amount of diacetyl that a popcorn plant worker was exposed to in a single shift before they started taking precautions. If I find that article I'll make sure to post a link.

Gotcha.

The Reason I asked was because there is a Large Range of Flavorings and Concentration Levels used in the making of Flavored e-liquids.

Some Flavored e-Liquids have No Detectable level of Diacetyl. Where others can have Very High Levels of Diacetyl. And everything in-between.

 

[Letitia]

The % of flavorings in diy are so low I doubt it would cause much of an issue for the average vaper. If I vaped at higher watts maybe I would be more concerned.

 

[Rossum]

Some Flavored e-Liquids have No Detectable level of Diacetyl. Where others can have Very High Levels of Diacetyl. And everything in-between.

Exactly. There were some (not many) that were tested and found to have levels that considerably exceed those found in tobacco smoke, so it's not possible to make a blanket statement like: "Smoke has several hundred times more".

 

[Rossum]

I think in the end Mike Petro may be correct in believing it may ultimately come down to temps used. I don't understand all of it, but enough that it seems a valid theory.

Diketones and aldehydes are two different things. Diketones are an intentional ingredient in some flavorings while aldehydes are a product of thermal decomposition of VG and PG at excessive temperatures.

 

[zoiDman]

The % of flavorings in diy are so low I doubt it would cause much of an issue for the average vaper. If I vaped at higher watts maybe I would be more concerned.

In Your DIY... right?

Because I know some people who DIY at around 25% Total Flavoring. And some of the Flavorings they use are Chucked Full of Diacetyl.

 

[Letitia]

In Your DIY... right?

Because I know some people who DIY at around 25% Total Flavoring. And some of the Flavorings they use are Chucked Full of Diacetyl.

I actually use a high % of flavoring, but the three I use that have diacetyl I use a very small % in any recipe. More enhancers than a forward flavor. That is why I was okay with ordering them. I did the homework before ordering any flavors.

 

[Letitia]

Diketones and aldehydes are two different things. Diketones are an intentional ingredient in some flavorings while aldehydes are a product of thermal decomposition of VG and PG at excessive temperatures.

I understand that. My point was it looks like temp will affect other factors than those two. Am I wrong? My understanding of the science of vaping is limited.

 

[stols001]

I don't think what role flavors play in temp issues is completely known as yet. I think lower temps are generally seen to be safer as far as not producing awful byproducts, but no one is testing temp and flavor yet, and I'm certainly not going to ask Mike P. to do it, though it might be interesting to test a flavor known to be high in dactyl and see what they're like under low and high temperature conditions, for sure.

I avoid those flavorings and flavor lightly.

Anna

 

[halfempty]

Gotcha.

The Reason I asked was because there is a Large Range of Flavorings and Concentration Levels used in the making of Flavored e-liquids.

Some Flavored e-Liquids have No Detectable level of Diacetyl. Where others can have Very High Levels of Diacetyl. And everything in-between.

Good point. The numbers were probably based on the average amount contained in e-liquid and since many have zero diacetyl, that average is probably low. Not to mention the fact that nobody could have sampled every existing juice out there.

The general premise of that old study seems sound to me. If I get a diacetyl/diketone caused disease it makes no sense to point at limited use of a low percentage substance (vapor), while ignoring decades of using a higher percentage substance (tobacco).

 

[r055co]

Just more FUD being spewed by those backed by Government and Big Pharma.

Me? I'll continue to refer to the Royal Collage of Physicians on studies they back along with their support of Vaping. But hey, what would they know? They're only the top Scientific Medical Organization in the world that has only been around for 500 years, what would they know.

 

[zoiDman]

I wonder when the Royal College of Physicians said this...

"There is a need for regulation to reduce direct and indirect adverse effects of e-cigarette use, but this regulation should not be allowed significantly to inhibit the development and use of harm-reduction products by smokers."

Nicotine without smoke: Tobacco harm reduction

If they were Referring to this...

Diacetyl now officially banned in eliquids in the UK / Vaping.com - Your One Stop Vapor Shop | vaping.com

 

[Kent C]

Anyone who is still concerned about diacetyl, acetyl propanol or acetone should check AEMSA (US org) and ECITA (UK org) that certifies eliquid manufactures that are free of those (and other) compounds - (also see zoid's link on the UK link by our own 'leader' Oliver. )

One would think that a college professor would have done the least bit of search regarding eliquids. Which is why I posted the above link "Texas man claims.... Vaping360" that questions many of the comments made in the original link.

For diacetyl, etc. free eliquids:

MEMBERS
ECITA Members | ECITA - Electronic Cigarette Industry Trade Association

These are not just 'claims', they are tested in labs with reports.

 

[r055co]

I wonder when the Royal College of Physicians said this...

"There is a need for regulation to reduce direct and indirect adverse effects of e-cigarette use, but this regulation should not be allowed significantly to inhibit the development and use of harm-reduction products by smokers."

Nicotine without smoke: Tobacco harm reduction

If they were Referring to this...

Diacetyl now officially banned in eliquids in the UK / Vaping.com - Your One Stop Vapor Shop | vaping.com

I wouldn't speculate, especially when they state

However, the hazard to health arising from long-term vapour inhalation from the e-cigarettes available today is unlikely to exceed 5% of the harm from smoking tobacco.



Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

 

[Katya]

I understand that. My point was it looks like temp will affect other factors than those two. Am I wrong? My understanding of the science of vaping is limited.

In a nutshell, only diketones (diacetyl, acetyl propionyl and acetoin) are associated with popcorn lung and those are added (unnecessarily, IMO) to the flavoring concentrates to create "creamy" flavorings, as Rossum noted above. The potential carcinogens that Mike, Kurt and others are studying (formaldehyde, acetaldehyde and acrolein) that appear in vapor at high(er) temperatures do not cause popcorn lung.

 

[Katya]

"Tommy Lowrance, a professor at Waco's McLennan Community College, developed a condition called "Popcorn Lung" after starting to vape for a short period of time in order to help quit cigarettes.

OK, so he vaped for a short time in order to help quit cigarettes. How many years has/had he been smoking before he took up vaping (for a short period of time ). Nobody seems to be concerned about his smoking history. Nobody even mentions if he managed to quit smoking altogether.

Give me a break.

This story reminds me of so many other stupid scare stories, most notably the story of a guy in Spain whose lipoid pneumonia was immediately blamed on vaping due to inhaling oil from e-juice.

Can E-Cigarettes Cause Lipoid Pneumonia?

Oy.................