Straw man arugment as to why the FDA hasnt shutdown SmokingEverywhere

[Boston George]

The FDA and other organizations are quick to say that e-cigarettes are unapproved medical devices and are illegal to sell or market.

njoy and SmokeingEverywhere are aggressively selling these 'illegal' devices. You can purchase them at some major retailers like costco.

As of yet the only action the FDA has taken is:
-Threatening statements and posturing
-Seizure of some shipments entering the country

Clearly, shutting down Njoy's and SE's retail and online locations would stop a substantial number of e-cigs from getting on the streets.

These places have businesses addresses. It wouldn't be hard for the FDA to show up on their doorstep for a chat.

So why haven't they? Because the FDA knows that both SE and Njoy will fight them. What is more, a court may find that e-cigarettes are in fact vaporizers and therefore legal. That e-juice is just a cocktail of GRAS ingredients and therefore not a new med. ( would be awesome right?)

So right now, its in the FDA's best interest to appear as threatening as possible. To create as much uncertainty as possible. Anyone can see there is a lot of money to be made with e-cigs, but the uncertainty may give them pause from taking the dive. In this way the FDA can slow the spread of E-cigs as much as possible before attempting to actually stop them in court.


This is obviously filled with a lot of speculation. We cannot know the mind of the FDA nor the outcome of any such court cases. However, I think its a useful debate to explore.

 

[Idahojo]

I agree Boston. It could also be the fact that we all know the FDA, thankfully, is very slow to decide to do anything. Any good lawyer could argue the nicotine patch, gum, lozenge issue as well. We might be safe for awhile.

 

[strayling]

It could be that the FDA have made their default noises - ban everything! - and are now trying to figure out what to really do.

 

[dc2k08]

It's sort of the way I am seeing it too Boston. The FDA got nowhere in the end with nicowater and nicogel is sold openly with no complaints. There is a a rule that says anyone who sells a product with an active ingredient which is also an active ingredient in a certified FDA approved product is not allowed to sell that product without FDA approval.

This was one argument ACS, ALA, and tobacco free kids etc used against nicowater at one time but nicowater eventually prevailed after a lot of hoopla. Perhaps nicotine is not seen as an active ingredient or maybe you would need to find out through official documents what allowed nicowater to prevail.

 

[Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah]

I've been wondering the same thing..... Why, in the light of what's going on in Washington right now, are Smoking Everywhere and NJoy still selling?

Well, OK, SE I can understand: They are rather clueless in their business, allowing their salespersons to make wildly unfounded statements about their products. (Cessation, NRT, FDA Approval, ect....) And even if they eventually get shut down, their prices have more than made them wealthy.

But NJoy? They have other products they sell, not just PV's. Why haven't they pulled product yet? Are they in the pockets of one of the biggies? Clue free? Or do their lawyers know something they're not telling?

I, for one, am watching NJoy. If they pull product, I think we're in trouble....... So long as their going strong, I'm for thinking the FDA is blowing smoke up our arses...

 

[Boston George]

Nicogel is fascinating. Its not FDA approved, its OTC and it contains nicotine...
I like their disclaimer Nicogel Home - Nicogel Nicotine Replacement Gel Online Information - What is Nicogel®?

I have been searching the web for anything about a court ruling on nicotine water but I have yet to find anything.

I really don't get why tobaccofreekids.org called for a ban on nicotinewater... Tobacco isnt even part of the equation. They afraid that water was going to become a gateway drug? Hell being addicted to drinking water instead of soda would help some kids....

If anyone knows an article or ruling on nicotine not being an active ingredient please link!

 

[dc2k08]

I'll try and find that stuff I was looking at again bg.
here's one thing I quickly found but there is more in depth stuff like actual letters:
FDA Rules Nico Water An Unapproved Drug
Here's a summary of some stuff but there is another one I found interesting that I can't find:
http://www.citizen.org/publications/release.cfm?ID=7445

 

[perkiekat]

I've been wondering the same thing..... Why, in the light of what's going on in Washington right now, are Smoking Everywhere and NJoy still selling?

I, for one, am watching NJoy. If they pull product, I think we're in trouble....... So long as their going strong, I'm for thinking the FDA is blowing smoke up our arses...

I'm watching nJoy too at a local Pilot Truck Stop...if they disappear, then I start getting really concerned. Right now...I think like you do...the FDA is BLOWIN' smoke STRAIGHT up our butts...yet going after the small businesses and sellers of the ecig...what bullcrap!!

 

[fjames]

This is pretty much my conclusion as well. Since we're into global speculation, here's mine (for US domestic consumption.)

E-cigs have a strong proponent group. Tobacco smokers have been well and thoroughly vilified. Since opponents of both are basically the same, some of the tactics (inaccurate characterizations, outright lies) used by anti-smoking groups will now see the light of day and perhaps not be seen so positively by some who have accepted same when used against pre-demonized tobacco users.

It could be a fun show.

 

[jmoney]

i just wish they would stop messing with intellicig...i can't re-order cartridges or atomizers because all their stuff is getting seized in customs right now

 

[jcoppers]

Might help that the CEO.Owner of Njoy is a corporate attorney. I would guess that before an attorney invested in ANYTHING he would have done his homework and knows what is ok. Njoy specifies that if you decide to sell the product you are NOT to market it as a smoking cessation device. Whatever, I have been analog free since mid January when I got mine.

 

[palermo45]

Boston, Those are my sentiments exactly!! If the FDA is going to apply laws and tactics to an item, it has to be the same laws applied to all accross the board. The FDA knows exactly where Njoy sells and have done nothing about it. It really pisses me off when I hear of so many packages being detained and destroyed with the BS explanation from the FDA stating this is an unapproved new drug, blah blah blah, while anyone can pick up the same thing at Costco. The laws need to be even for all Company's, both large and small. It seems the FDA targets the little guy and in my book, that is discrimination! Regardless, we all know what an unorganized and totally useless gov't entity the FDA is. Who knows what the outcome is going to be with those bozos!! I have been vaping for months and couldn't be happier. I also feel much better and the "cough" is essentially gone. It is total bs that 1 gov't entity has the potential right to tell me that I can not vape, yet I can smoke traditionals as much as I want. Didn't Obama approve millions for research into possible Nrt's? Why the hell doesn't the fda get off their asses and do some research before coming to the conclusion that e-cigs are not safe? How do they come to this conclusion if they have not done any testing?

Thanks for letting me vent!

 

[Letzin Hale]

i just wish they would stop messing with intellicig...i can't re-order cartridges or atomizers because all their stuff is getting seized in customs right now

Where did you get that information about Intellicig? When I last spoke to David he said that only 2 orders had been 'customised' out of hundreds that have been shipped and that they were with a particular courier. They were not destroyed or confiscated but returned intact. Another post on here claims "It really pisses me off when I hear of so many packages being detained and destroyed with the BS explanation from the FDA stating this is an unapproved new drug". I haven't heard of this happening, what actual evidence is there? I'm not saying it hasn't happened but some of this sounds a little like scaremongering which might deter people from ordering outside the US. Yes, I'm a bit suspicious and cynical!
Alan.

 

[palermo45]

Hi Alan,

I had a small shipment of 40 units destroyed. These were ordered from the same factory that manufactures for SE. I also know several other people who have experienced this.

 

[Boston George]

I had a small shipment of 40 units destroyed. These were ordered from the same factory that manufactures for SE. I also know several other people who have experienced this.

I am sorry for your loss. When you say the same as smoking everywhere, do you mean FirstUnion or Loongtotem? I believe that Loongtotem has the word 'Health' plastered all over their box.

 

[Letzin Hale]

Hi Alan,

I had a small shipment of 40 units destroyed. These were ordered from the same factory that manufactures for SE. I also know several other people who have experienced this.

I was led to believe that the FDA or Customs gave the recipient a choice of either having them confiscated/destroyed or returned to sender. I'm concerned that the authorities can do this without offering the option to return them.
Alan.

 

[Savantster]

I think the biggest issue is that they don't want anyone to be "lied to", vis a vis "smoking cessation device". And I can understand that.. but, according to logic and reason, if you can "step down" with Nicoderm CQ (tm), a patch that doesn't help with your nicotine levels as readily as inhaling (scientifically proved over and over), then you can certainly "step down" with e-cigs. Logic makes them a valid cessation device, if you follow the same protocol as is listed in the patch boxes (but that info/instruction is NOT provided in e-cig packages, hence not _really_ a cessation device).

If people would STOP LYING or being DECEITFUL, we'd have none of these problems. But, as one poster in another thread put it, "that's business".. ah, yes.. lying for money.. good business, and the exact reason we need the FDA..... /sigh

I wasn't aware that e-cigs were still being sold in the U.S. by major retailers. Since that's true, this looks more and more like a "protect our market" ploy, coupled with "make sure NO unfounded claims are allowed to profit"..

I guess I'll order my vap stuff (been holding off, but I recon it's time).. and I'll put a request on the order to "plain wrap" the package and make sure there is NO indication as to "e-cig" or "ejuice" or _anything_ like that on the package. I don't want my stuff being turned around.. You'd think the sellers would already be on that boat, but.

 

[jmoney]

intellicig-usa, and intellicig are no longer shipping to the us because of customs, i tried to refill my supplies from both of them, and now on their us website they have a big attention sign saying everything except the u.s made stuff is no longer for sale until this is all over

 

[palermo45]

Hi Alan,

I was given a choice of either having them returned or destroyed. China would have accepted the package back, however the shipping costs would have been around $800 (for just 40 units) At that point I figured why lose another $800 + shipping costs back to the US to "try again"? Ultimately the package was destroyed. Of coarse "destroyed" is what they tell us. Who knows? Maybe their are some UPS/FDA employees freely vaping at my expense? I hope they enjoy the apple flavor!!

 

[palermo45]

I am sorry for your loss. When you say the same as smoking everywhere, do you mean FirstUnion or Loongtotem? I believe that Loongtotem has the word 'Health' plastered all over their box.

Hello,

These just said "smoking anywhere" on the box. I got into it with an FDA rep when he told me the problem was in the user manual on page 6 (I believe it was page 6) At that point I e-mailed him the user manual from SE which is 100% identical, verbatim with both words and illustrations. His reply to me was "we can not discuss our enforcement against companies with individuals". However it is just more bs. Obviously there has not been any enforcement against Njoy otherwise this product would not be selling at Costco!! Hello???