Submitted for your consideration: Smoking Replacement Therapy
- Thread starter Thulium
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Nico Worldwide Inc.
Sure it can. The FDA is trying to block this route by banning nicotine water, but the fact is that e-smoking does fit the homeopathic schema. More to the point, however, is that if we can make Smoking Replacement a homeopathic remedy for smoking cessation based on homeopathic Laws, we can take away the FDA's ability to regulate vaping out of existence.
You don't think that replacing cigarette smoking with a virtual reality experience is therapeutic? What about people who ramp down their nicotine intake and continue to vape with 0-nic? Are they using a tobacco product? Are they using a drug/device combo? Are they using a Nicotine Replacement Therapy? Nope. They are replacing smoking with a virtual experience and have chosen to end their dependence on nicotine through Smoking Replacement Therapy. The upside of SRT is that you don't HAVE to quit nicotine as the pharmacologically active ingredient in e-cigarettes is not the primary source of therapeutic effect: The primary source of therapeutic effect is from replacing noxious smoke with a safer virtual experience. Nicotine is included as an option to make the virtual experience a more effective smoking replacement.
Regulations.gov
FDA :-Tobacco Product in combo with another article,(nicotine and nico-water is in there) does this need replying too? They're asking for comments.
FDA :-Tobacco Product in combo with another article,(nicotine and nico-water is in there) does this need replying too? They're asking for comments.
Homeopathic remedies use minute amounts of the substance in the remedy. Personally, I'm not willing to give up my 18mg for a minute amount.
And I don't see how holding a PV in my hand and taking a drag, you know, inhaling and exhaling, is a virtual experience. It's pretty dang real and physical to me. Kinda like a pacifier thing.
Most homeopathic remedies, if used in large doses, cause the problem they are treating.
I'm addicted to nicotine. A homeopathic preparation of nicotine would have so little nicotine in it that I'd either have to vape or smoke an analog to get what my system needs to be comfortable.
But, that's me. I'm not interested in decreasing my nic intake.
Actually, I'm not up on the nico water at the moment, I've read all the info and know they tried the homeopathic route, but I don't remember all the details at the moment.
And I don't see how holding a PV in my hand and taking a drag, you know, inhaling and exhaling, is a virtual experience. It's pretty dang real and physical to me. Kinda like a pacifier thing.
Most homeopathic remedies, if used in large doses, cause the problem they are treating.
I'm addicted to nicotine. A homeopathic preparation of nicotine would have so little nicotine in it that I'd either have to vape or smoke an analog to get what my system needs to be comfortable.
But, that's me. I'm not interested in decreasing my nic intake.
Actually, I'm not up on the nico water at the moment, I've read all the info and know they tried the homeopathic route, but I don't remember all the details at the moment.
I mean no offense to the OP with this post. His original post is his own idea/opinion and he is certainly entitled to his idea/opinion. I was originally thinking of becoming a supporting member of CASAA. But, as a health care professional myself, if this idea has anything to do with CASAA, I want no part of the organization. When I first read the post, I honestly thought it was a sarcastic joke. I later realized it was meant with all seriousness. I could go into a 5 paragraph treastise on how ridiculous the original post is, but with deference to the OP's feelings, I will not. The fact that the CASAA moderator has not closed this thread and has continued to allow serious discussion on this matter tells me that CASAA is not for me.
If I have insulted or offended anyone, I sincerely apologize, that was not my intent.
If I have insulted or offended anyone, I sincerely apologize, that was not my intent.
Markarich,
Nothing has been cast in stone. Thulium simply posted a point of view (not necessarily one he was married to IMO) and its being debated in this thread. Its not CASAA policy by any means, nor would I presume to discount any ideas thrown on the table at this stage. Many points have been tossed around (and still are) during this formation process.
On a related note, Ive noticed some users have discounted CASAA as being for this or against that when in truth we are still gathering feedback and fleshing out exactly who we are going to be. It would be premature to make a decision (one way or the other) based on the connotation of a single word until everyones voice has been given the opportunity to be heard. Only when the final Articles of Organization are posted will there be a last vote that defines who we are, what we stand for and how we intend to meet our goals.
I dont feel it is my place to close a thread just because the viewpoint is controversial. FWIW, unless a member breaks ECF forum rules, closing threads will be more for archiving and cleaning up dead conversations. Censoring posts will be reserved for real posting violations.
Before you make a decision that CASAA isnt for you, please take a minute to read the latest state of the union being presented in http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/casaa/41976-casaa-administration.html There you will find the official working document and even it is open to refinement.
Not at all! Few of us here are thin-skinned and I happen to know Thulium lives for lively intellectual debate. One thing I am especially proud of in the CASAA forum is the thoughtful and provocative nature of the posts here. Flaming and name-calling doesnt proliferate here and that is purely by the nature and demeanor of the members involved policing each other.
So, fire away! Just please remember that if you dont like a topic being brought up for CASAA policy it is your responsibility to make your voice heard and sway anyone on the fence with persuasive arguments.
18mg sounds like a minute amount to me.
A PV shaped like a cigarette, painted to look like a cigarette, producing vapor designed to look like smoke from a cigarette, flavored like a cigarette, nicotine to give a throat hit like a cigarette, the end lights up like a burning cigarette. It's a virtual reality cigarette. According to Philip Zhai, author of Get Real: A Philosophical Adventure in Virtual Reality (1998), "virtual reality could be made to have an ontological status equal to that of actual reality."
One of the tenets of homeopathy is that small doses cure, large doses kill. That point is proven out by nicotine--a small dose of nicotine can save you from the poisons of smoke, but a large dose can kill you.
Says who? 36mg seems like a pretty small dose to me, and the only reason to use that much is due to the inefficiency of low temp vaporizers and the fact that a small cartridge on an e-cigarette is replacing up to an entire pack of cigarettes.
If the rules on homeopathic doses don't allow us to use sufficient amounts of nicotine, we don't have to take the homeopathic route at all or we could use ultrasonic vaporizers that don't require as "high" a concentration to effectively replace smoking.
J. Robert Knight submitted NicLite to the FDA as a homeopathic complex formula. Detail are here: Nico Worldwide Inc.
Finally, bear in mind that my point here is to make Smoking Replacement the real "cure", rather than focusing on the nicotine like NRTs do. I submit to you that an e-cigarette without any nicotine at all can still sooth the urge to smoke, compared to Nicotine Replacement Therapies like the patch that get you all hopped up on nicotine so you don't feel the "need" to smoke...but when I was on them, even though I was absolutely not craving nicotine, I still wanted something to do with my hands and mouth.
Finally, if the homeopathic formulated e-liquid doesn't work for you, you could use an e-liquid sold as a tobacco product. Or if the FDA manages to block e-liquid from being sold as a tobacco product and the homeopathic e-liquids don't work for you, establishing Smoking Replacement as a recognized therapeutic method would still keep PVs on the market and we can get our nicotine elsewhere: Some people will homebrew e-juice, and some people could use 0-nic vapor to make FDA approved NRT like the patch more effective.
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Mark, while I appreciate the deference to my "feelings", I didn't post this concept to make myself feel better about myself so pointing out flaws in the logic aren't really going to hurt my feelings. I posted this here so that we could work all that stuff out and if I can get "buy in" from enough people, I honestly think that this might be the way to save e-cigarettes.
The FDA asserts that e-cigarettes are a "new drug", while while SmokingEverywhere/Njoy/AES are stating they are a tobacco product. There are pro's and con's to both viewpoints so I am offering a third.
E-cigarettes as a "drug/device combo":
PRO: FDA approval and regulation to assure consistent safety and quality
CON: FDA can ban them completely or make approval so difficult that only companies as large as Pfizer, Philip Morris, or R.J. Reynolds would have the financial resources to produce them.
E-cigarettes as a "tobacco product":
PRO: FDA cannot ban them...yet.
CON: They could not be sold without nicotine.
CON: They could be banned for public use like other tobacco products.
CON: States could force e-smokers to inhale secondhand smoke by forcing them into smoking areas.
E-cigarettes as a "Smoking Replacement Therapy"
PRO: Potentially eligible for homeopathic use
PRO: Can be used with or without nicotine or tobacco
PRO: Can be promoted as a treatment for smoking addiction without making unsubstantiated medical claims because we can conduct the appropriate studies comparing e-cigarettes to other smoking replacements...including those that don't use nicotine (herbal cigarettes, Jelly beans, bubble gum, toothpicks) and compare them to Smoking Replacements that do (NRTs, smokeless tobacco, snus, homeopathic remedies like NicLite water).
PRO: Correctly identifies the intended use of e-cigarettes.
CON: SRT has not yet been established or legally defined.
PRO: Since "SRT" has not yet been defined, we have the opportunity to shape the definition to accurately describe e-cigarettes and promote their use.
If you have other objections, please post them.
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The accepted level of dilution for over the counter homeopathic nicotine is one part per million (6x), per FDA. I think that's the strongest potency recognized as homeopathic.
From Understanding Homeopathy Potency
Their example was Ledum, the same process applies to all homeopathic remedies.
Homeopathic is extremely dilute.
For total information overload click here!
_____________
From Understanding Homeopathy Potency
Their example was Ledum, the same process applies to all homeopathic remedies.
Homeopathic is extremely dilute.
For total information overload click here!
_____________
According to the Ruyan study, each "puff" of an e-cigarette delivers 60ml of vapor. The homeopathic complex formula of NicLite includes 4mg of nicotine (at "6x" strength) per 240ml bottle. That's 1mg per 60ml, and more than 20 times the amount of nicotine you'd get from 16mg of nicotine dissolved into enough e-liquid to produce 18 liters of vapor (1 cartridge) from an e-cigarette.
Granted, if the homeopathic dosage applies to the concentrated form of e-liquid, its possible that you wouldn't get enough nicotine to effectively replace smoking. However, if the dosage is measured by the actual injested product when e-cigarettes are used as intended...there is PLENTY of wiggle room.
That said, I'm not putting all my eggs in the homeopathic basket. E-cigarettes work pretty well without nicotine at all, and I don't really care if we have to get our nicotine from a NRT, tobacco product, or a homeopathic complex formula....in any case, consumers have a right to choose safer and more effective smoking replacements.
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As an ADD-born person, I'm certainly aware of the homeopathic/self-medicating remedy nicotine offers. I doubt if I ever will be at 0 nic level, just for that reason. I know I'm not alone in this slot. Then again, I'm left-handed....
You're right. Many people will continue to use nicotine until it or something else kills them. But one of the advantages of e-cigarettes is that they allow you ramp down your nicotine usage if you want and still address the behavior modification needed to quit smoking. I was just talking to a friend about this and she mentioned that any "quit smoking" hotline you call will tell you that Nicotine Replacement is not enough alone, you also need some sort of behavioral modification. Smoking Replacement is that behavioral program, and e-cigarettes incorporate a behavioral program AND have the option to work as or alongside a Nicotine Replacement Therapy.
I bet everyone in this forum has made at least one attempt to quit smoking. I know from my personal experience that my past attempts were successful enough to break the nicotine addiction, but inevitably I would resume smoking because I wanted not the nicotine, but one or more of the other aspects of smoking that are not addressed by other options: I still liked the feeling of breathing and even "playing" with the smoke itself. I still wanted the social aspect of having a smoke over a drink with one or more friends. I still wanted something to do with my hands even when chewing nicotine gum. I still missed the allure of smoking. No matter how many anti smoking ads I watch, no matter how many pictures of blackened lungs I see, no matter how many people I meet with smelly clothes, yellow teeth, and bronchial tubes....I still think smoking is kinda cool. Only with an e-cigarette can I replace all the things I love about smoking while eliminating all (or at least MOST of) the things I hate about it.
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