Subtank RBA builds? show em!
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Thx OTA. It's not often several peeps see the same thing, same time and step up to report. You end up thinkin' it's some quirky thing on your side of the access. Put a word in to the mod. Lesse wasup.
Good luck.
I can see them both now
Looks neat!
I just made my first DIY juice as well today, it's been an interesting week for sure.
Sadly no new pics for today from my end. Coil number 3 still makes delicious vapor so I'm not touching it for now
I'm interested in making my own but still pretty new to vaping, but it's in my future for sure just need to find nicotine base locally, can get everything else.
So whats the biggest coil you guys can fit in a mini? for me its a 9 wrap 26 ga. or a 6.5 wrap twisted 26 ga. and 30ga. I want to run a twisted coil but with the wire I have its to big unless I want to run .2ohm or .5ohm coils. I prefer .7`1 ohm range. mainly because anything .5 and under causes my Kbox gets warm Like REALLY warm almost hot. not sure why from what I understand lower ohm should used less voltage therefore not put as much load on the battery. I have a aw imr 18650 3.7v 2000mah (7.4w)
So whats the biggest coil you guys can fit in a mini? for me its a 9 wrap 26 ga. or a 6.5 wrap twisted 26 ga. and 30ga. I want to run a twisted coil but with the wire I have its to big unless I want to run .2ohm or .5ohm coils. I prefer .7`1 ohm range. mainly because anything .5 and under causes my Kbox gets warm Like REALLY warm almost hot. not sure why from what I understand lower ohm should used less voltage therefore not put as much load on the battery. I have a aw imr 18650 3.7v 2000mah (7.4w)
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You don't order online?
I need to start stocking up on nic mix. From what I gather larger bottles then 10ml aren't allowed to be sold in the entire EU from the 20th of May any longer
The largest I had in there was about 3mm ID & 9 and a bit wraps in 26g myself, but frankly I felt that it was too large already. I had to bend the legs around the coil to get them in the posts with that one. I think I'll stick to 8 ish wraps with an ID of 2,5mm in the future.
Some folks even manage to get two coils in there though, there are how-to's on YT if you're interested.
I managed an 11 wrap 26ga. 2.5mm id coil 1.2ohms just put her in. I like it. more surface area but cooler vape.
I couldn't resist and tried a twisted Ti coil just to get a feel for the differences before I switch to a RTA (I have my eye on the EHPro Bachelor).
I almost forgot to take a pic though, I hope it still shows enough:
Twisted 28g titanium, 8 and a bit wraps with a 2,5mm ID, measures in @ 0,35 on my cheap ohm meter and 0,33 on my Evic VT.
I still feel this coil is over the max size for the RBA, I had to make a lot of adjustments to get it to fit without the legs touching the coil itself. The little ohm meter was a great help in keeping an eye on making no falls contact while I was doing that by the way.
I put so much cotton in there that it could barely slide around in the coil this time. It might just be a little too much but I'm just trying things out.
So far I really like it. Vapor production and taste went up significantly at the same temps as I was using the single strand coil. Not sure if it's the twisted coil or the tighter wick though, but I still have coil number 3 in one of my other RBAs so I'll wick it in a similar way and try it out to see how it changes that one's performance in a day or two.
Which version of the RBA do you guys prefer by the way?
I have the Plus and the Plus V2 with the larger juice holes here and I have a hard time to get the Plus V2 wicked so it won't leak. The holes are just too big imo.
The holes in the Plus version are on the small side though, I feel the perfect size would be somewhere in between the two. I might take the dremel out to fix that in a little bit.
I almost forgot to take a pic though, I hope it still shows enough:
Twisted 28g titanium, 8 and a bit wraps with a 2,5mm ID, measures in @ 0,35 on my cheap ohm meter and 0,33 on my Evic VT.
I still feel this coil is over the max size for the RBA, I had to make a lot of adjustments to get it to fit without the legs touching the coil itself. The little ohm meter was a great help in keeping an eye on making no falls contact while I was doing that by the way.
I put so much cotton in there that it could barely slide around in the coil this time. It might just be a little too much but I'm just trying things out.
So far I really like it. Vapor production and taste went up significantly at the same temps as I was using the single strand coil. Not sure if it's the twisted coil or the tighter wick though, but I still have coil number 3 in one of my other RBAs so I'll wick it in a similar way and try it out to see how it changes that one's performance in a day or two.
Which version of the RBA do you guys prefer by the way?
I have the Plus and the Plus V2 with the larger juice holes here and I have a hard time to get the Plus V2 wicked so it won't leak. The holes are just too big imo.
The holes in the Plus version are on the small side though, I feel the perfect size would be somewhere in between the two. I might take the dremel out to fix that in a little bit.
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I couldn't resist and tried a twisted Ti coil just to get a feel for the differences before I switch to a RTA (I have my eye on the EHPro Bachelor).
I almost forgot to take a pic though, I hope it still shows enough:
Twisted 28g titanium, 8 and a bit wraps with a 2,5mm ID, measures in @ 0,35 on my cheap ohm meter and 0,33 on my Evic VT.
I still feel this coil is over the max size for the RBA, I had to make a lot of adjustments to get it to fit without the legs touching the coil itself. The little ohm meter was a great help in keeping an eye on making no falls contact while I was doing that by the way.
I put so much cotton in there that it could barely slide around in the coil this time. It might just be a little too much but I'm just trying things out.
So far I really like it. Vapor production and taste went up significantly at the same temps as I was using the single strand coil. Not sure if it's the twisted coil or the tighter wick though, but I still have coil number 3 in one of my other RBAs so I'll wick it in a similar way and try it out to see how it changes that one's performance in a day or two.
Which version of the RBA do you guys prefer by the way?
I have the Plus and the Plus V2 with the larger juice holes here and I have a hard time to get the Plus V2 wicked so it won't leak. The holes are just too big imo.
The holes in the Plus version are on the small side though, I feel the perfect size would be somewhere in between the two. I might take the dremel out to fix that in a little bit.
Nice tight build there OTA. But if the wind's layin' down efficient power the big bore coil and "chunky wick" can really put out.
Started testing multi-wire for personal use even as I introduced single-wire tension winding in the Fall of '13. A pic of twisted-pair shot about 5/1/14 I wrote about later is one of my favorites (just too much density for that particular atty)…before the big bore cloud chuckin' RDA's and macro's. Most everyone was winding <1.5mm micro's. A few notables, veterans here on ECF, were the exception I got my cues from to realize there was a lot more power strain could tame. From all this I came to the conclusion long ago that straight-wire flat surface uniformity coupled with strain can outperform any of these mass-for-mass. Gotta tell ya though, I still make 'em. LOL For different devices and purposes. One of them is the Immortalizer for which I still wind straight, twisted and ribbon.
Good job. Enjoy the vape and good luck.
p.s. You can use strain (winding on a screw) to make twisted's rigid and tight. As in the pic I use strain to line up the knurls as coherently as possible. This does aid oxidation but you'll never really have adhesion as in a standard t.m.c.. It's never as reliable as straight-wire and fails altogether in about a third of the winds. But yeah, you can come up with some pretty tight reliable twisteds with strain. Very durable but not as much as the three-lead twisted center-post wind I've discussed here and elsewhere.
Nice tight build there OTA. But if the wind's layin' down efficient power the big bore coil and "chunky wick" can really put out.
Started testing multi-wire for personal use even as I introduced single-wire tension winding in the Fall of '13. A pic of twisted-pair shot about 5/1/14 I wrote about later is one of my favorites (just too much density for that particular atty)…before the big bore cloud chuckin' RDA's and macro's. Most everyone was winding <1.5mm micro's. A few notables, veterans here on ECF, were the exception I got my cues from to realize there was a lot more power strain could tame. From all this I came to the conclusion long ago that straight-wire flat surface uniformity coupled with strain can outperform any of these mass-for-mass. Gotta tell ya though, I still make 'em. LOL For different devices and purposes. One of them is the Immortalizer for which I still wind straight, twisted and ribbon.
Good job. Enjoy the vape and good luck.
p.s. You can use strain (winding on a screw) to make twisted's rigid and tight. As in the pic I use strain to line up the knurls as coherently as possible. This does aid oxidation but you'll never really have adhesion as in a standard t.m.c.. It's never as reliable as straight-wire and fails altogether in about a third of the winds. But yeah, you can come up with some pretty tight reliable twisteds with strain. Very durable but not as much as the three-lead twisted center-post wind I've discussed here and elsewhere.
Thanks
I feel the wire could have used more twists but I used the coffee cup method and twisted it until the wire broke so I might just have to find a better method for the next one. I did use a lot of tension when wrapping by the way, so much so that it started to unwrap at the first wraps while I wasn't done yet, lol
Anyway, flavor improved so much that I'll probably stick to twisted wire for a while, I find myself almost chewing the vapor now
Interesting read in the Gizmo thread you linked by the way.
Would I be able to get a slightly cooler vape if I used thicker or thinner wire for these twisted coils perhaps?
On Resistance, Wicking and Contact surface area…
OTA, think it's all about effective wetted contact area. That's the idea behind a t.m.c. If you run a 26awg 9x 2.5mm single at 1Ω then do dual 26's…you're still putting out the same 25W for example (assuming a variable box) across twice the wetted surface. Assuming you have enough wick and enough flow within it you'll double the production (in theory, there are other factors).
You are applying the same power level but doubling the contact area based on the wire's cross-section. So you're getting more vaporization density (with VW) in this example. Not necessarily a warmer vape (so you would rightly say cooler). But you're using the same power, getting more vape. You've gained effective efficiency of production by design. Go back to the single and your output is less but guess what? It's warmer. Same power.
Thicker wire will draw more power (or needs to be provided proportionately more amps) to achieve a given wattage output. What some refer to as ramp up is simply wire needing time to absorb or move that flow to peak watts. You have to fill the barrel large or small and the latter is easier and faster. Perhaps not the best analogy but simplest for me to compare. So important here is that you're producing more vapor density if enough wick media is there to answer the demand for flow created by that heat.
So then the real question is — what is the maximum vapor density this device can produce?
The vaporization temp for our juices is comparatively low relative to the overall wire temp's being achieved. More actual juice vaporization with the additional effective contact surface should be the goal. And that's my strategy is to find that optimal high side of fit for wire, coil and wick that the device will support. What's the most this baby will do if I floor it? We can always back off from that. But once it's built, that's your limit…not necessarily that of the device. We can always adjust downward if we like. For hotter faster flow with a smaller diameter say; or, wetter, cooler, denser keeping it bigger or fatter.
By definition, No. 36 AWG is 0.005 inches in diameter, and No. 0000 is 0.46 inches in diameter. The ratio of these diameters is 1:92. Six steps down in gauge will get you a roughly halving of cross-section; but four steps down, roughly a quarter of the resistance. Studying the tables will give you some insights into what power or amps the wire will pull or require to reach a temp or resistance target. Generally lower will use or need more power as resistance lowers. But if/as this translates to more contact surface…and that depends on your design…you will see more actual vapor production. The reverse may be true at the margins. Transition points between wire gauges. So that a small count wind of higher gauge like 25AWG may give better performance than say a high count of 24AWG. Even as the higher mass is lower res and the higher having less turn counts (contact)…a the higher rate of vaporization can happen if there's more effective contact area relative to resistance.
This is what I suggest bearing in mind, increasing the amount of wire (mass) will not necessarily yield more vapor production. Only what part comes in contact with wetted media. And the more efficient the wind in doing so, the more vaporization you will see. Exposed surface doesn't induce vaporization directly but enhances diffusion of the vapor adding heat in the process. Some swear by this and wind fat. Go back a few years and the trend went to ribbon to achieve the lowest possible aspect ratio (or profile) for the wire relative to the wick. I think this is a very meaningful strategy. We can build a lot of pretty wire but most of it is decoration.
Not an easy subject to grasp. And I claim to be no expert on either resistance or wire. Given my experience tho lots of us are missing out on a fine vape for the lack of just a little better knowledge. Hope you've seen steam-engine.org because that's going to be your Rosetta Stone for wading through resistance in the language of numbers. Build a short table for your device at your expected best or preferred resistance. Expand up and down and you might get some surprises.
As I write I'm rockin' an original Subtank/RBA/IPV D2 KA1 @20W, 4.2V build using standard single airflow with a 3.2mm Ø t.m.c., looks like this…
25x1 7/7 @ 3.175mmØ t.m.c.= 0.8855Ω
Talkin' shop with a B&M manager few days back vapin' this and this big box vaper thought I was pushin' 50W. To his surprise when I shone the screen. But I've posted pics buried here some place, displaying or not, on my initial high limit tests for the Subtank and it rocked with a t.m.c. even with the stocker RBA deck at the time. This particular RBA has been very slightly drilled out to allow for more wicking (yes, even fatter). But I can take this median build which is no stress on the batt and easily kick at much higher than normal density beyond 30W…and you guessed it, as you said…it's cool.
Good luck OTA.
OTA, think it's all about effective wetted contact area. That's the idea behind a t.m.c. If you run a 26awg 9x 2.5mm single at 1Ω then do dual 26's…you're still putting out the same 25W for example (assuming a variable box) across twice the wetted surface. Assuming you have enough wick and enough flow within it you'll double the production (in theory, there are other factors).
You are applying the same power level but doubling the contact area based on the wire's cross-section. So you're getting more vaporization density (with VW) in this example. Not necessarily a warmer vape (so you would rightly say cooler). But you're using the same power, getting more vape. You've gained effective efficiency of production by design. Go back to the single and your output is less but guess what? It's warmer. Same power.
Thicker wire will draw more power (or needs to be provided proportionately more amps) to achieve a given wattage output. What some refer to as ramp up is simply wire needing time to absorb or move that flow to peak watts. You have to fill the barrel large or small and the latter is easier and faster. Perhaps not the best analogy but simplest for me to compare. So important here is that you're producing more vapor density if enough wick media is there to answer the demand for flow created by that heat.
So then the real question is — what is the maximum vapor density this device can produce?
The vaporization temp for our juices is comparatively low relative to the overall wire temp's being achieved. More actual juice vaporization with the additional effective contact surface should be the goal. And that's my strategy is to find that optimal high side of fit for wire, coil and wick that the device will support. What's the most this baby will do if I floor it? We can always back off from that. But once it's built, that's your limit…not necessarily that of the device. We can always adjust downward if we like. For hotter faster flow with a smaller diameter say; or, wetter, cooler, denser keeping it bigger or fatter.
By definition, No. 36 AWG is 0.005 inches in diameter, and No. 0000 is 0.46 inches in diameter. The ratio of these diameters is 1:92. Six steps down in gauge will get you a roughly halving of cross-section; but four steps down, roughly a quarter of the resistance. Studying the tables will give you some insights into what power or amps the wire will pull or require to reach a temp or resistance target. Generally lower will use or need more power as resistance lowers. But if/as this translates to more contact surface…and that depends on your design…you will see more actual vapor production. The reverse may be true at the margins. Transition points between wire gauges. So that a small count wind of higher gauge like 25AWG may give better performance than say a high count of 24AWG. Even as the higher mass is lower res and the higher having less turn counts (contact)…a the higher rate of vaporization can happen if there's more effective contact area relative to resistance.
This is what I suggest bearing in mind, increasing the amount of wire (mass) will not necessarily yield more vapor production. Only what part comes in contact with wetted media. And the more efficient the wind in doing so, the more vaporization you will see. Exposed surface doesn't induce vaporization directly but enhances diffusion of the vapor adding heat in the process. Some swear by this and wind fat. Go back a few years and the trend went to ribbon to achieve the lowest possible aspect ratio (or profile) for the wire relative to the wick. I think this is a very meaningful strategy. We can build a lot of pretty wire but most of it is decoration.
Not an easy subject to grasp. And I claim to be no expert on either resistance or wire. Given my experience tho lots of us are missing out on a fine vape for the lack of just a little better knowledge. Hope you've seen steam-engine.org because that's going to be your Rosetta Stone for wading through resistance in the language of numbers. Build a short table for your device at your expected best or preferred resistance. Expand up and down and you might get some surprises.
As I write I'm rockin' an original Subtank/RBA/IPV D2 KA1 @20W, 4.2V build using standard single airflow with a 3.2mm Ø t.m.c., looks like this…
25x1 7/7 @ 3.175mmØ t.m.c.= 0.8855Ω
Talkin' shop with a B&M manager few days back vapin' this and this big box vaper thought I was pushin' 50W. To his surprise when I shone the screen. But I've posted pics buried here some place, displaying or not, on my initial high limit tests for the Subtank and it rocked with a t.m.c. even with the stocker RBA deck at the time. This particular RBA has been very slightly drilled out to allow for more wicking (yes, even fatter). But I can take this median build which is no stress on the batt and easily kick at much higher than normal density beyond 30W…and you guessed it, as you said…it's cool.
Good luck OTA.
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On Resistance, Wicking and Contact surface area…
OTA, think it's all about effective wetted contact area. That's the idea behind a t.m.c. If you run a 26awg 9x 2.5mm single at 1Ω then do dual 26's…you're still putting out the same 25W for example (assuming a variable box) across twice the wetted surface. Assuming you have enough wick and enough flow within it you'll double the production (in theory, there are other factors).
You are applying the same power level but doubling the contact area based on the wire's cross-section. So you're getting more vaporization density (with VW) in this example. Not necessarily a warmer vape (so you would rightly say cooler). But you're using the same power, getting more vape. You've gained effective efficiency of production by design. Go back to the single and your output is less but guess what? It's warmer. Same power.
Thicker wire will draw more power (or needs to be provided proportionately more amps) to achieve a given wattage output. What some refer to as ramp up is simply wire needing time to absorb or move that flow to peak watts. You have to fill the barrel large or small and the latter is easier and faster. Perhaps not the best analogy but simplest for me to compare. So important here is that you're producing more vapor density if enough wick media is there to answer the demand for flow created by that heat.
So then the real question is — what is the maximum vapor density this device can produce?
The vaporization temp for our juices is comparatively low relative to the overall wire temp's being achieved. More actual juice vaporization with the additional effective contact surface should be the goal. And that's my strategy is to find that optimal high side of fit for wire, coil and wick that the device will support. What's the most this baby will do if I floor it? We can always back off from that. But once it's built, that's your limit…not necessarily that of the device. We can always adjust downward if we like. For hotter faster flow with a smaller diameter say; or, wetter, cooler, denser keeping it bigger or fatter.
By definition, No. 36 AWG is 0.005 inches in diameter, and No. 0000 is 0.46 inches in diameter. The ratio of these diameters is 1:92. Six steps down in gauge will get you a roughly halving of cross-section; but four steps down, roughly a quarter of the resistance. Studying the tables will give you some insights into what power or amps the wire will pull or require to reach a temp or resistance target. Generally lower will use or need more power as resistance lowers. But if/as this translates to more contact surface…and that depends on your design…you will see more actual vapor production. The reverse may be true at the margins. Transition points between wire gauges. So that a small count wind of higher gauge like 25AWG may give better performance than say a high count of 24AWG. Even as the higher mass is lower res and the higher having less turn counts (contact)…a the higher rate of vaporization can happen if there's more effective contact area relative to resistance.
This is what I suggest bearing in mind, increasing the amount of wire (mass) will not necessarily yield more vapor production. Only what part comes in contact with wetted media. And the more efficient the wind in doing so, the more vaporization you will see. Exposed surface doesn't induce vaporization directly but enhances diffusion of the vapor adding heat in the process. Some swear by this and wind fat. Go back a few years and the trend went to ribbon to achieve the lowest possible aspect ratio (or profile) for the wire relative to the wick. I think this is a very meaningful strategy. We can build a lot of pretty wire but most of it is decoration.
Not an easy subject to grasp. And I claim to be no expert on either resistance or wire. Given my experience tho lots of us are missing out on a fine vape for the lack of just a little better knowledge. Hope you've seen steam-engine.org because that's going to be your Rosetta Stone for wading through resistance in the language of numbers. Build a short table for your device at your expected best or preferred resistance. Expand up and down and you might get some surprises.
As I write I'm rockin' an original Subtank/RBA/IPV D2 KA1 @20W, 4.2V build using standard single airflow with a 3.2mm Ø t.m.c., looks like this…
25x1 7/7 @ 3.175mmØ t.m.c.= 0.8855Ω
Talkin' shop with a B&M manager few days back vapin' this and this big box vaper thought I was pushin' 50W. To his surprise when I shone the screen. But I've posted pics buried here some place, displaying or not, on my initial high limit tests for the Subtank and it rocked with a t.m.c. even with the stocker RBA deck at the time. This particular RBA has been very slightly drilled out to allow for more wicking (yes, even fatter). But I can take this median build which is no stress on the batt and easily kick at much higher than normal density beyond 30W…and you guessed it, as you said…it's cool.
Good luck OTA.
Very interesting, thanks again for the info. You've been a tremendous help in getting me started at all this!
Frankly I wanted nothing to do with builds with more than one coil at least for a while but now that you've explained it it seems the way to go for someone like me.
I am very sensitive to heat in my mouth for some reason which is why I stopped using herbal vaporizers a few years ago, and I'm already feeling a slight inflammation in my pallet and throat from vaping (I overdid it a bit this week). So I took a break yesterday and went down to 195 degrees Celsius when I picked it up again today with the twisted coil (still produces plenty of vapor at that temp). But the coolest I could get it would be best I think, so I guess I have a lot more experimenting to do!
Yeah, I've been using the Steam-engine from the start, couldn't have done it without it.
Your photo doesn't work again by the way, just orange text again like last time.
Thanks again for the nod. I'll take a look at the album. Permissions went wonky last time I uploaded. Dunno why.
Just try and remember as it happens for you and you get stable or the dream vape. Stay subscribed and follow the threads that most helped. Post a summary somewhere or link to them for the new vapers. So many of us move on and frankly, we need the numbers. It's the community as a whole that if coherent can beat back those who would abuse the phenomenon for their own ends. If I can help on any mystery, give a shout.
Good luck.
p.s. Pls take a peek at my last pic post again and LMK if ok. Thx!
Just try and remember as it happens for you and you get stable or the dream vape. Stay subscribed and follow the threads that most helped. Post a summary somewhere or link to them for the new vapers. So many of us move on and frankly, we need the numbers. It's the community as a whole that if coherent can beat back those who would abuse the phenomenon for their own ends. If I can help on any mystery, give a shout.
Good luck.
p.s. Pls take a peek at my last pic post again and LMK if ok. Thx!
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25x1 7/7 @ 3.175mmØ t.m.c.= 0.8855Ω
That does mean 7 wraps of 25g wire with an ID of 3.175mm correct?
I may have to order 25g wire. I have 24 and 26 but no odd sizes.
That does mean 7 wraps of 25g wire with an ID of 3.175mm correct?
I may have to order 25g wire. I have 24 and 26 but no odd sizes.
Warning: Link rich reply.
Yep. Just syntax loosely following S-E's input values. There's an important one I like to include following the basic spec and that's Lead Length, in this case...
25x1 7/7 @ 3.175mmØ LL=9mm t.m.c.= 0.8855Ω
Tables of these by device make rebuilds quick, if you know where you've been, i.e.
Guage x Turns | Wind | Wraps | Ø | LL | Spacing | Type | Ω || A, W @ 3.7-4.2V | mW/mm² max.
Immortalizer (Blu) ZNA-30 AW18490 LL=7.4, PxP=3.1mm, PSW=0.84mm
25x1 6.6 2.82mmØ t.m.c. = 0.6948Ω 19.7-25.39W @ 3.7-4.2V (5.33-6.04A)
25x1 7/7 2.82mmØ t.m.c. = 0.7995Ω 17.12-22.06W @ 3.7-4.2V (4.63-5.25A)
25x1 7/7 2.75mmØ t.m.c. = 0.7858Ω 17.42-22.45W @ 3.7-4.2V (4.71-5.34A)
25x1 9/9 2.50mmØ t.m.c. = 0.9285Ω Adequate after drillouts, 19W@4.2V
25x1 TLP 7/6 1/8” 3.175mmØ (C/B) t.m.c. = 1.3Ω Adequate (after break-in)
MUTATION X Z2 SONY VTC4 (Gambit Clone)
24x2 6/5 3/32” NexT t.m.c. = .249Ω Jammin!
Raiju (VHO) JEM Stellar #0081 MNKE 18650
>24x2 7/6 2.7051mm t.m.c.= 0.312Ω (36-56W 200 mW/mm²)
26x2 5/4 #44WG 2.18mmØ t.m.c. = .270Ω Outboard coils stellar!
Subtank/RBA
25x1 7/7 3.175mmØ LL=9mm t.m.c. @ 0.883Ω
30x2 TLP 6/6 2.5mmØ 9mmØ L/L t.m.c. = .4681Ω
Subtank/OCC
29x2 TLCP 9/8 2.778mmØ LL=14mm t.m.c. = 1.287Ω KGD backing only x4 (tight) awesome!
zMonkey CE650-RDA MNKE 18650
26x2 VDC 6/5 2.38mmØ (XC-116) t.m.c. = 0.378Ω 2014.07.21 WOWEE 46.67W
26x1 6/5 7/64” 2.778mm (XC-116) t.m.c. = .98Ω 2014.03.07 WOW
zMonkey CE650-RDA MNKE 18650
26x2 VDC 6/5 2.38mmØ (XC-116) t.m.c. = 0.378Ω 2014.07.21 WOWEE 46.67W
26x1 6/5 7/64” 2.778mm (XC-116) t.m.c. = .98Ω 2014.03.07 WOW
454BB RDA Brass Z2 ZMonkey AW18490
25x2 VDC 7/7 2.82 @ 0.813Ω
I always try to reference output specs based on mechanical operation. The amps-watts/voltage data derives from S-E's Ohm's Law calc. I try to remember to input the high side 4.2V wattage in the wind calc so I have the mW/mm² output handy as I review bookmarks. Label these with the abbreviated spec so my comp's are at first glance diameter and resistance and thermal capacity a click away…whether in bookmarks or the db tables. A far cry from the 4GL db I'd like to build someday to compile all 3 years worth of research notes. We'll see.
Some abbreviations I use to keep it from being a tortured mess…
DC, Dual Coil
P2, Parallel
Tx, Twisted (strands), twisted-pair
TLCP, Twisted Lead Center Post
TLP, Twisted Lead Parallel
VDC, Vertical Dual Coil
LL, Lead Length
PSW, Post (separation) width
PxP, center pin (nominal coil length)
Using everything from 22-32AWG but 25AWG which is starting to become more available is the closest in my estimation to the metric NiCr Kanger used early on in the Subtanks. Dunno these days. No longer comparison testing t.m.c.'s vs factory. Just got off the phone with a couple of younger vapers I trained down in Miami and they affirm I have no reason to. What I've passed on to the wise here on these pages changed their vape and and life. I do one-on-one workshops and I'll be fielding a new group shortly. They in turn is my hope will help dozens of their friends. But long way around, yeah 25AWG is useful in bridging the gap from 24AWG providing a couple of fast firing high-output winds suitable for single coil devices on variables.
Anyway, thanks for the query. Hope some of these ideas make sense or are useful SLM.
Good luck.
p.s. @SLM sorry for the continuing edit. Had to take a few of those calls.
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Thanks again for the nod. I'll take a look at the album. Permissions went wonky last time I uploaded. Dunno why.
Just try and remember as it happens for you and you get stable or the dream vape. Stay subscribed and follow the threads that most helped. Post a summary somewhere or link to them for the new vapers. So many of us move on and frankly, we need the numbers. It's the community as a whole that if coherent can beat back those who would abuse the phenomenon for their own ends. If I can help on any mystery, give a shout.
Good luck.
p.s. Pls take a peek at my last pic post again and LMK if ok. Thx!
Will do, and your picture works fine now
I switched to a higher VG juice yesterday by the way, I get nice rich vapor from 180C and up now with this twisted coil and it is nice and cool at those settings. Flavor gets better from 200C and upwards but perhaps it'll still improve at lower temps with more time since I only made this stuff a week ago. I planned to let it steep longer but I didn't trust the store bought high PG juice with my inflamed throat any longer so I just gave it a try yesterday.
I think I'm gonna stick to the single twisted coil set-up a little while longer, I really like how this thing performs and don't see a real need for a more complicated build at this time.
The super thick wick holds up really nice as well by the way, no problems at all even with my high VG juice. I also have no more problems with leaking if I take too long to refill the tank. This seems like the way to go
Will do, and your picture works fine now
I switched to a higher VG juice yesterday by the way, I get nice rich vapor from 180C and up now with this twisted coil and it is nice and cool at those settings. Flavor gets better from 200C and upwards but perhaps it'll still improve at lower temps with more time since I only made this stuff a week ago. I planned to let it steep longer but I didn't trust the store bought high PG juice with my inflamed throat any longer so I just gave it a try yesterday.
I think I'm gonna stick to the single twisted coil set-up a little while longer, I really like how this thing performs and don't see a real need for a more complicated build at this time.
The super thick wick holds up really nice as well by the way, no problems at all even with my high VG juice. I also have no more problems with leaking if I take too long to refill the tank. This seems like the way to go
I really enjoyed twisted for years as opposed to the basic tensioned wind I was passing on to new vapers. Your observation confirms mine that lots more power is required for the multi-wire. And sometimes this can overwhelm the device. We can make smaller coils but that affects the flow. Sometimes that's too tight and you go hotter and drier. In the end, it's great to have alternatives to the temperature target we seek. Using strain will help you get there. To gauge the result a straight wire t.m.c. is a far easier build than you might think and a quick barometer for the situation.
Thanks for your feedback on VG. It's just benign to a good build. It's really more the juice chemistry (darker, richer) of juices that cruds coils and of course how much you actually vaporize. No (real) use, no wear and tear. Also if you are that sensitive to heat/pg/juices it's always helpful to give things a breather, lol. Just vape VG. A great solution for clearing your throat and your wick to just vape that periodically. Body changes and sensitivities are common that first year you quit. My sensitivity to pg has become at least tolerable allowing me more flavoring choices these days.
On geometry more wick, more flow potential. You build small, you get small. You can always back off but if you limited production you'll never see the high-end potential of the device. Glad you caught that. OTH, you need good lead exit paths (see below) or you skew coils. That's not helpful particularly with twisteds. It'll not only accordion the coil but stretch the twist itself in ways that are sometimes unpredictably nasty. And I hate not knowing why things don't work.
Enjoy that twisted vape. Build a stable t.m.c. when you can. A few $$$ for a pin vice and spool of wire is well worth it. Cheap drill bits are common and make it easy to test Ø variety. The (cooler) ceramic deck Immortalizer above is where most of those twisted's lived or with ribbon coils, spaced and contact. These days 25AWG from .8-1.2Ω work dandy.
For your low-power MTL preferences you might look into this RBA. About the best flavor atty I have with the above build and wick (the tails wind opposed up the walls absorbing the drip, keeping it off the deck). You can actually pick up an authentic at a truly redic price here >>>>The Immortalizer by ChiefVapors Pat. Unbelievable, clone prices. Even tho I have a bunch of these, try and beat me to it.
Good luck all, OTA.
p.s. You can pick up authentic colored sleeves for the Immo here...Chief Vapers - Colored Immortalizer Sleeves.
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Frankly I'm a bit surprised that I don't need more power to drive this twisted coil.
In TC I have the max wattage set to 30W but even on start-up it only uses 22W briefly and then throttles from nothing to about 16W to maintain temperature.
Still very pleased with this build by the way. I changed the wick yesterday after 5 days of vaping on it. The cotton was still fine but the coil itself started getting gunky so I removed the cotton and carefully pulsed it @6,5W to clean the coil (I noticed I had to turn up the temperature to get the same results so I went investigating when I noticed the build up in the center of the coil).
I also noticed the two outer wraps on each side of the coil got way less hotter than the center of it which led me to believe I could do without those wraps (I still feel 6 to 7 spaced wraps will make a more efficient coil in the little RBA).
I need to work on getting a better twist-pitch going though, so I can use less wraps and still get a higher resistance then the current 0,35ohm. I just don't think I need to be this low and would like to extend my battery life a bit. I'll try the drill today and see if that makes for a better, tighter twisted wire.
I'm also way past being a mouth to lung hitter by the way. I realize now I only was one because of the limitations of my old equipment, I may very well be on my way to become a cloud chaser now, lol
Idk why but I find it very enjoyable to blanket the entire room in mist for some reason. Tasty mist of course, but still
So thanks for the suggestion but I decided to order that Bachelor I was looking at instead, hopefully it'll be here by the weekend.
I also made myself a little build kit yesterday, I'll see if I can get some pictures up later today. Might be helpful to other newbies that don't want to spend the 50 bucks or so on those ready made sets you can buy.
Oh, & my mouth and throat ache disappeared quickly once I dropped the PG out of my juice entirely, so the heat didn't have anything to do with my complains after all. Really glad to have that figured out as well now!
In TC I have the max wattage set to 30W but even on start-up it only uses 22W briefly and then throttles from nothing to about 16W to maintain temperature.
Still very pleased with this build by the way. I changed the wick yesterday after 5 days of vaping on it. The cotton was still fine but the coil itself started getting gunky so I removed the cotton and carefully pulsed it @6,5W to clean the coil (I noticed I had to turn up the temperature to get the same results so I went investigating when I noticed the build up in the center of the coil).
I also noticed the two outer wraps on each side of the coil got way less hotter than the center of it which led me to believe I could do without those wraps (I still feel 6 to 7 spaced wraps will make a more efficient coil in the little RBA).
I need to work on getting a better twist-pitch going though, so I can use less wraps and still get a higher resistance then the current 0,35ohm. I just don't think I need to be this low and would like to extend my battery life a bit. I'll try the drill today and see if that makes for a better, tighter twisted wire.
I'm also way past being a mouth to lung hitter by the way. I realize now I only was one because of the limitations of my old equipment, I may very well be on my way to become a cloud chaser now, lol
Idk why but I find it very enjoyable to blanket the entire room in mist for some reason. Tasty mist of course, but still
So thanks for the suggestion but I decided to order that Bachelor I was looking at instead, hopefully it'll be here by the weekend.
I also made myself a little build kit yesterday, I'll see if I can get some pictures up later today. Might be helpful to other newbies that don't want to spend the 50 bucks or so on those ready made sets you can buy.
Oh, & my mouth and throat ache disappeared quickly once I dropped the PG out of my juice entirely, so the heat didn't have anything to do with my complains after all. Really glad to have that figured out as well now!
Frankly I'm a bit surprised that I don't need more power to drive this twisted coil.
In TC I have the max wattage set to 30W but even on start-up it only uses 22W briefly and then throttles from nothing to about 16W to maintain temperature.
Still very pleased with this build by the way. I changed the wick yesterday after 5 days of vaping on it. The cotton was still fine but the coil itself started getting gunky so I removed the cotton and carefully pulsed it @6,5W to clean the coil (I noticed I had to turn up the temperature to get the same results so I went investigating when I noticed the build up in the center of the coil).
I also noticed the two outer wraps on each side of the coil got way less hotter than the center of it which led me to believe I could do without those wraps (I still feel 6 to 7 spaced wraps will make a more efficient coil in the little RBA).
I need to work on getting a better twist-pitch going though, so I can use less wraps and still get a higher resistance then the current 0,35ohm. I just don't think I need to be this low and would like to extend my battery life a bit. I'll try the drill today and see if that makes for a better, tighter twisted wire.
I'm also way past being a mouth to lung hitter by the way. I realize now I only was one because of the limitations of my old equipment, I may very well be on my way to become a cloud chaser now, lol
Idk why but I find it very enjoyable to blanket the entire room in mist for some reason. Tasty mist of course, but still
So thanks for the suggestion but I decided to order that Bachelor I was looking at instead, hopefully it'll be here by the weekend.
I also made myself a little build kit yesterday, I'll see if I can get some pictures up later today. Might be helpful to other newbies that don't want to spend the 50 bucks or so on those ready made sets you can buy.
Oh, & my mouth and throat ache disappeared quickly once I dropped the PG out of my juice entirely, so the heat didn't have anything to do with my complains after all. Really glad to have that figured out as well now!
Glad you isolated the PG. I gradually gained some tolerance. Which has helped, as the variety of flavorings I enjoy in PG has opened up to me. Laughin' cause I avoided lung hitting while I was trying to keep up project discipline in my study of rebuilding methods for the t.m.c. and new vapers. But I'm a former pipe|cigar|cig smoker and bellowing exhales that fill the room go with that. Kits are expensive. A pin vise and 25' stiff hard spool of wire (avoid the flimsy ones) travel anywhere. When you get bored try one and you won't see the dysfunctional end turns nomo.
Again, hate to sound like a one track horse but if you wind on a pin vise (4$), keep the wind on the bit…you can use a second pin vise (leads chucked in and evenly balanced in length and strain) to precisely dial up the exact pitch in the leads you're lookin' for. This balance is critical in TLP's and can be achieved easily as per above.
Or, use a vise grip to hold the wind bit as in the picture (if you only have the one PV). And for those who may have noticed…this is not a twisted parallel. They're actually whole-wrap twisted-lead tandems I put together for a vertical solution…a derivative of the twisted lead center post arrived at by twisting both ends of single-wire builds. Like the TLCP extremely durable and powerful. There's the approach and solution peeps. Go quads on two posts (on stuff like the 454BB).
Go mist the room SLM.
Good luck.
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Pretty much all my vape-gear excluding the DIY-liquid stuff:
I picked up the USB-rechargeable Ohm/Volt meter for around 8 bucks on ebay, until it arrived a little piece of hardwood with a 6mm hole drilled in it worked just fine as a build platform for the little RBA.
Inside the pouch:
From left to right, starting at the top:
-spare syringe (I keep the one in use with my DIY stuff in the basement)
-phillips screw-driver
-poke thingie (basically a large stainless needle with glass bead on the end)
-stepped mandrel, goes from 1,5mm to 3,5mm
-Victorinox Alox Classic (I found this to be the best compact scissors I had laying around for cutting cotton)
-empty juice bottle filled with pure VG (for pre-wicking fresh wicks)
-flathead screwdriver
-nail-clippers, never liked it for it's intended purpose but turns out to make a great wire-cutter as well
-ceramic tweezers & un-screw thingie (super handy little tool, highly recommended)
-cotton and two sizes of grade 1 titanium wire (26 & 28g)
I had most of this stuff laying around and only bought the mandrel (2 bucks), the tweezers (5 bucks) and the cotton and wire (15 bucks) plus of course the little Ohm/Voltage meter (8bucks).
Other then this I only use a bench vice and sometimes my Victorinox Spirit (multitool) for pliers.
I picked up the USB-rechargeable Ohm/Volt meter for around 8 bucks on ebay, until it arrived a little piece of hardwood with a 6mm hole drilled in it worked just fine as a build platform for the little RBA.
Inside the pouch:
From left to right, starting at the top:
-spare syringe (I keep the one in use with my DIY stuff in the basement)
-phillips screw-driver
-poke thingie (basically a large stainless needle with glass bead on the end)
-stepped mandrel, goes from 1,5mm to 3,5mm
-Victorinox Alox Classic (I found this to be the best compact scissors I had laying around for cutting cotton)
-empty juice bottle filled with pure VG (for pre-wicking fresh wicks)
-flathead screwdriver
-nail-clippers, never liked it for it's intended purpose but turns out to make a great wire-cutter as well
-ceramic tweezers & un-screw thingie (super handy little tool, highly recommended)
-cotton and two sizes of grade 1 titanium wire (26 & 28g)
I had most of this stuff laying around and only bought the mandrel (2 bucks), the tweezers (5 bucks) and the cotton and wire (15 bucks) plus of course the little Ohm/Voltage meter (8bucks).
Other then this I only use a bench vice and sometimes my Victorinox Spirit (multitool) for pliers.
Glad you isolated the PG. I gradually gained some tolerance. Which has helped, as the variety of flavorings I enjoy in PG has opened up to me. Laughin' cause I avoided lung hitting while I was trying to keep up project discipline in my study of rebuilding methods for the t.m.c. and new vapers. But I'm a former pipe|cigar|cig smoker and bellowing exhales that fill the room go with that. Kits are expensive. A pin vise and 25' stiff hard spool of wire (avoid the flimsy ones) travel anywhere. When you get bored try one and you won't see the dysfunctional end turns nomo.
Again, hate to sound like a one track horse but if you wind on a pin vise (4$), keep the wind on the bit…you can use a second pin vise (leads chucked in and evenly balanced in length in strain) to precisely dial up the exact pitch in the leads you're lookin' for. This balance is critical in TLP's and can be achieved easily as per above.
Or, use a vise grip to hold the wind bit as in the picture (if you only have the one PV). And for those who may have noticed…this is not a twisted parallel. They're actually whole-wrap twisted-lead tandems I put together for a vertical solution…a derivative of the twisted lead center post arrived at by twisting both ends of single-wire builds. Like the TLCP extremely durable and powerful. There's the approach and solution peeps. Go quads on two posts (on stuff like the 454BB).
Go mist the room SLM.
Luckily I'm not so sensitive to PG that I can't use minimal amounts of it in PG based flavorings so I still use those. When I was still using an Ego pen-style vape I never even noticed the PG sensitivity because I only used about 0,5 to 1 ml e-juice a day but with the new set-up my usage doubled to tripled and only then it started to become a problem.
Haha, I occasionally turn down the airflow on the Toptank for a more restricted hit (flavour-bombs) but displine isn't something I have a lot of
Two more questions though, what does TLCP stand for, and who the heck is SLM?
Good kit. Mandrel's good as i mentioned. Clamp the wire in a vise and pull to strain straight or multi wire. And the new ceramic tweezers I'll have to try. Some I've seen are round rather than flat-faced. PV, tweezers, coiled wire a good Phillips/flat and Ω-meter are indispensible. Forceps, vise crips and miniature clamps as in my pic earlier can make you feel like you have four hands.
TLCP — twisted lead center-post
Is the term I coined to describe the tension-wound adaption of the three-lead twisted center-post micro duals by @MattyB1503 . A really unique concept originally introduced on @super_X_drifter's original microcoil thread…Micro Coils to increase Vapor, flavor & TH | E-Cigarette Forum… which inspired my tensioned contact adaptation. The purpose was as with the original t.m.c. to induce adhesion and full oxidation as seen here…
Sorry bout the acronyms, lol. Did mix it up. SLM's another poster.
Good luck.
TLCP — twisted lead center-post
Is the term I coined to describe the tension-wound adaption of the three-lead twisted center-post micro duals by @MattyB1503 . A really unique concept originally introduced on @super_X_drifter's original microcoil thread…Micro Coils to increase Vapor, flavor & TH | E-Cigarette Forum… which inspired my tensioned contact adaptation. The purpose was as with the original t.m.c. to induce adhesion and full oxidation as seen here…
Sorry bout the acronyms, lol. Did mix it up. SLM's another poster.
Good luck.
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