Swiss TV consumer show on e-cigs, interview with JF Etter

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tom09

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 22, 2009
504
125
Germany
World Radio Switzerland (2 February, 2012): E-cigarettes—quitter's best friend or new health hazard?

The linked video is a synchronized English version (original show aired October 11 in French)
End of first part (03:52) briefly mentions some Swiss analyses detecting traces of impurities, no details.
Etter interview starts at 06:10.
 

Vocalek

CASAA Activist
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Although the first part of the interview was OK, I was disappointed by Etter's closing advice. He recommended that smokers who want to quit use the "proven effective" medical treatments. He also stated that the only situation in which he would recommend using the e-cigarette would be for people who already use one and who are afraid that they would relapse to smoking if they stop.

He apparently has never read the 2001 Institute of Medicine report, Clearing the Smoke, that stated "Indeed, it has been predicted that even with the most intensive application of the most effective programs for abstinence and cessation, at least 10 percent to 15 percent of adults in the United States would continue to smoke.”

http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Re...r-Tobacco-Harm-Reduction/tobacco8pgfinal2.PDF

To put this prediction into perspective, 10 to 15 percent of adults in the United States represents 31 to 46 MILLION lives (at the current adult population level) that will be lost without more effective approaches.

He apparently has never read the 2007 report from the tobacco Advisory Group of the Royal College of Physicians, Harm reduction in nicotine addiction: Helping people who can't quit. http://www.tobaccoprogram.org/pdf/4fc74817-64c5-4105-951e-38239b09c5db.pdf

If he did, he would have learned:

  • Changes in brain structure impair ability to achieve and maintain abstinence
  • Changes may not be entirely reversible
  • Some smokers may never be able to quit all nicotine use.
  • Half of these will die of smoking-related disease
  • Alternative nicotine products could provide a safer long-term substitute for cigarette smoking

He obviously is not attuned to the concept of tobacco Harm Reduction. He is apparently thinking of e-cigarettes as "Just another form of NRT" instead of recognizing it for its intended use: a reduced-risk substitute for smoking. He apparently thinks that nicotine abstinence is the only method of smoking cessation that can possibly work.

If you fail to ask the right questions, you can come to false conclusions. In his own surveys, he never bothered to ask two important questions that the Tobacco Harm Reduction organization asked on theirs:

How many times did you try to stop smoking?
Did you ever try to use pharmaceutical products such as nicotine patches or nicotine gum to quit?​

http://tobaccoharmreduction.org/wpapers/011v1.pdf

If he had asked the right questions and learned that 67% had tried four or more times without success, that 21% had tried more than 10 times without success, and that 87% had tried the "proven effective" products in the past and found them to be ineffective, could he have, with a straight face, advised smokers to keep beating their heads against a wall?

If the definition of insanity is to keep doing what you have been doing over and over, expecting a different result, then smokers are not the only people who are insane. The people who keep advising them to use the proven (in)effective drugs are insane.
 

DC2

Tootie Puffer
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 21, 2009
24,161
40,974
San Diego
I was disappointed in his statements that we don't know anything whatsoever about the safety of inhaling propylene glycol.
He truly made it sound like for all we know the stuff will kill you.

A simple observation that it is used in fog machines would be enough to at least add a bit of context.
If, of course, context was something he was interested in conveying.

All in all I thought it was a fairly odd piece, and I came away confused as to his actual position.
 

rolygate

Vaping Master
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 24, 2009
8,354
12,405
ECF Towers
Etter is an establishment researcher who is unbiased and comes out with honest research results. However he is about 10 years behind others in tobacco control who realise that medicine changes over time, and who have moved on. If it didn't then we would still be using bloodletting.

In 1900, doctors looked back at the practices of 50 years before, in 1850, and marvelled at how crude and ineffective they were. But keep in mind that the doctors of 1850 considered themselves educated, capable, and expert.

In 1950, doctors looked back at the practices of 50 years before, in 1900, and marvelled at how crude and ineffective they were. But keep in mind that the doctors of 1900 considered themselves educated, capable, and expert.

In 2000, doctors looked back at the practices of 50 years before, in 1950, and marvelled at how crude and ineffective they were. But keep in mind that the doctors of 1950 considered themselves educated, capable, and expert.

In 2062, doctors will look back at the practices of 50 years before, in 2012, and marvel at how crude and ineffective they were. But keep in mind that the doctors of 2012 consider themselves educated, capable, and expert.

What do we learn from this? If your answer is, "Nothing", you are destined to be just another journeyman doctor (or scientist of any flavour). The people who move medicine (and science) forward are the people who don't agree with current ideas or practice.

Some scientists never seem to learn that some of what they think they know is just not true. They don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that although they think of themselves as clever, in just fifty years time others will look back and view them as ignorant bunglers.

Of all the sciences, medicine is the worst: it clearly demonstrates, better than any other, that in a few short decades the knowledge you think you have is shown to be grossly inadequate and in some cases just plain wrong.

Doctors need to be able to look ahead, if they are doing anything other than putting a splint on a broken arm. The idea that they fully comprehend areas in which there is debate is simply laughable. I believe that medical science has known for about twenty years that Harm Reduction works better than direct withdrawal if the measurement used is the number of lives saved. Normally, we expect doctors to start using something widely when it has been proven to work for twenty years, so around now is when the majority should wake up to HR.

Etter is not at fault, he is a symptom of establishment medicine: don't support anything unless your national college of surgeons recommends it officially. By that time it has been the best option for thirty years; but if you go against this established practice, you risk being seen as a dangerous revolutionary. In the professions, that is usually an unacceptable risk - it is far easier to take the safe, cautious approach and do as everyone else does. Let someone else move medicine forward, and let them take the risk.

In a lot less than fifty years time, the idea of using NRTs with a proven success rate of 2% - 10% will be so ludicrous that doctors will ask how anyone can have supported it, when Sweden reduced both their smokers and their smoking death rate by 40% with THR, and the other countries only manage a paltry 0.4% per year with their NRTs. But right now NRTs still look attractive to those who have to toe the party line - because they have been told they work.

It is important to the system that NRTs work and are well-supported - otherwise, look how ludicrous many thousands of doctors' work will appear. So, like the emperor's new clothes, they seem rather good to the believers. Belief is impervious to facts.

It is important to believe in the system, because a sudden realisation that things are not all they should be can be shattering to some. Tell me again how many doctors commit suicide?

If only it was possible to know what they will know in fifty year's time... Actually it's not that hard - what is known at any given time was already realised by some, thirty years before. They just had to keep quiet about it, in order to hold on to their jobs.
 
Last edited:

Vocalek

CASAA Activist
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
"If it didn't then we would still be using bloodletting. " Chris, are you implying that I should be looking for a new doctor? I was getting tired of those leeches anyway.

The real leeches are the doctors and researchers who propagandize that NRTs are effective and that Chantix is proven safe simply because their research projects or their institution is supplied with lots of money from pharmaceutical companies that manufacture the approved "smoking cessation" products.
 

sonicdsl

Wandering life's highway
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 11, 2011
17,744
19,245
The real leeches are the doctors and researchers who propagandize that NRTs are effective and that Chantix is proven safe simply because their research projects or their institution is supplied with lots of money from pharmaceutical companies that manufacture the approved "smoking cessation" products.

You are way too nice to call them leeches. ;)
 

rolygate

Vaping Master
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 24, 2009
8,354
12,405
ECF Towers
There is a quality control issue in countries that do not have a trade association or any form of even light-touch official testing of materials. This is only to be expected.

It is difficult for the consumer to be sure that their purchases are of the highest quality (in those cases where that is their aim), but unless somebody somewhere is testing the finished product, consumers are not going to get the best possible product quality. There is nothing to be done about it until consumers themselves insist on a better deal. Vote with your cash if you want things to improve.

There is a good argument that people want a range of products, from the cheapest to the provable best. The cheapest will always be available, but the only way to ensure that the best is available is to buy it. If people mainly buy the cheapest product, then that is what will predominate.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread