E-Cigarettes Deliver Nicotine - JF Etter

[Vocalek]

I haven't read this whole thread, and this comment really has nothing to do with this thread, but UGH! This is the problem with drug education (legal and illegal) in the US. They rightly state that the practice of injecting an illicit drug intravenously raises the risk of the user contracting a blood-borne illness. However, the way it's worded makes it sound like the drug itself is the problem, when the reality is that it's the culture surrounding the use of the drug that causes the problem. It's the sharing of dirty needles that raises the risk of contracting HIV, not the injection of a drug on its own.
Language is a powerful weapon.

I hear you. It matches the way that the diseases and deaths that are triggered by other substances in smoke gets blamed on nicotine.

 

[CES]

Wrong opinion not supported by facts.Coca-ine and Nicotine acts on the same/similar receptors in Brain.

Nicotine and ....... leave similar mark on brain after first contact

They both result in an increase in dopamine in the nucleus accumbens, as do all substances that make us feel good, including caffeine, gambling, food and sex. However the two substances in question act by very different mechanisms. Nicotine binds to nicotinic acetylcholne receptors in the ventral tegmental area (VTA) and activates dopaminergic neurons, increasing dopamine release into the nucleus accumbens. C...... blocks the dopamine transporter. It blocks the reuptake of dopamine, resulting not only in increased dopamine in the synapse, but also depletes dopamine stores so that when you come down you feel even worse than when you started. So while the brain areas activated and the pathway is similar, it doesn't mean that they're equal.

and yeah, i can give you any number references

 

[Tom09]

www link: a complete pdf of this paper (Etter & Bullen 2011) can now be accessed here

the core data of this study:

All participants but one used ENDS daily. Participants puffed a median of 200 times*day-1 on their ENDS (25th and 75th percentiles: 100 and 400 puffs*day-1, range 50–1,000 puffs*day-1, mean±SD 250±205 puffs*day-1). The most used brands were Joye (n=9, 29%) and Janty (n=4, 13%), and themost used models, sold under different brand names, were Ego (n=12, 39%) and 510 (n=7, 23%). On average, the concentration of nicotine in refill liquids was 18 mg*mL-1, and participants used five refills or cartridges per day. At the time of saliva collection, participants had been using ENDS for a median of 94 days (25th and 75th percentiles: 45 days and 10 months, range 16 days–3 yrs).
In the 30 ENDS users who, in the previous 48 h, had not used tobacco or NRT but had used ENDS, median cotinine level was 322 ng*mL-1 (25th and 75th percentiles: 138 and 546 ng*mL-1, range 13–852 ng*mL-1, mean±SD 338±227 ng*mL-1), and correlation between cotinine and puffs*day-1 on ENDS was r=0.39 (15% of variance explained, p=0.034). The only smoker drew 150 puffs*day-1 on his ENDS and had 141 ng*mL-1 cotinine. The only non-daily user used ENDS on 2 days*week-1 and had 13 ng*mL-1 cotinine.

 

[nopatch]

Nicotine dose alter mood though, ask any cold turkey quitter.

Yes.Nobody is disputing the Mood altering effect of nicotine.

@ nopatch, using a study of abusers is hardly the way to win your case. Intravenous? hell I wouldn't want water administered intravenously no more than I'd want it poured into my lungs, inhaling some steam on the other hand...

Just to clarify so that there is no confusion I am not one of two who quoted drug addicts practice to support the claim that caffeine and nicotine have same/similar effects.

 

[nopatch]

They both result in an increase in dopamine in the nucleus accumbens, as do all substances that make us feel good, including caffeine, gambling, food and sex. However the two substances in question act by very different mechanisms. Nicotine binds to nicotinic acetylcholne receptors in the ventral tegmental area (VTA) and activates dopaminergic neurons, increasing dopamine release into the nucleus accumbens. C...... blocks the dopamine transporter. It blocks the reuptake of dopamine, resulting not only in increased dopamine in the synapse, but also depletes dopamine stores so that when you come down you feel even worse than when you started. So while the brain areas activated and the pathway is similar, it doesn't mean that they're equal.

and yeah, i can give you any number references

The Bolded part is exactly my point.All stimulants are not the same.Caffeine's stimulation is not primarliy from Dopamine release, though.Caffeine blocks adenosine receptors tricking the brain to belive you are not exhuasted.
THE BRAIN FROM TOP TO BOTTOM

 

[Nicko]

Nopatch ,I have read all of what you are trying to say, but it's difficult to know what point you are trying to make. This is a forum for mostly former smokers who use e-cigs as a means of getting nicotine in a much safer way than inhaling cigarette smoke.

 

[nopatch]

Nopatch ,I have read all of what you are trying to say, but it's difficult to know what point you are trying to make. This is a forum for mostly former smokers who use e-cigs as a means of getting nicotine in a much safer way than inhaling cigarette smoke.

I was just pointing out the callousness in the use of nicotine equating it with coffee.I am not saying anything more than that.

 

[Nicko]

I was just pointing out the callousness in the use of nicotine equating it with coffee.I am not saying anything more than that.

I consume caffiene and I enjoy it in my coffee. I consume nicotine, and I enjoy it in my e-cig vapor. Both are stimulants. And to my knowledge, both have a similar effect. Not identical, but similar. If you think that's callous, then we can agree to disagree.

 

[nopatch]

Psst. Nicotine IS a stimulant.

Correct.I don't remember anyone disagreeing with that.

What scientific studies are you referring to? This one, perhaps? Safety of Nicotine Polacrilex Gum Used by 3,094 Participants in the Lung Health Study "Results: The rates of hospitalization for cardiovascular conditions and cardiovascular deaths during the 5 years of the study were not related to use of NP, to dose of NP, or to concomitant use of NP and cigarettes.

nicotine polacrilex used for 5 years doesn't lead to cardio problems.Good find.

Here's a cherry for you:

Let us pick the cherry.

Maternal caffeine intake during pregnancy and risk of fetal growth restriction: a large prospective observational study -- 337 -- bmj.com "Conclusions: Caffeine consumption during pregnancy was associated with an increased risk of fetal growth restriction and this association continued throughout pregnancy. Sensible advice would be to reduce caffeine intake before conception and throughout pregnancy"

A sensible advice nobody has a problem accepting.The comments section give some additional details.There are smokers who are also coffe drinkers in that study.Also the earlier observation that women with Morning sickness tend to avoid coffee stands.

The comments are by peers.

"Medical Dictionary
in·tox·i·cate definition

Not going there.That nicotine is a highyl addictive drug is established.

In what way does nicotine use "excite or stupefy..to the point where physical and mental control is diminished"??

Who said anything about diminishing?.I am not wasting my time in assumptions.

On the contrary, Nicotine is currently being evaluated as a possible performance ENHANCING drug as seen here: Beneficial effects of nicotine - JARVIK - 2006 - British Journal of Addiction - Wiley Online Library "When chronically taken, nicotine may result in: (1) positive reinforcement, (2) negative reinforcement, (3) reduction of body weight, (4) enhancement of performance, and protection against: (5) Parkinson's disease (6) Tourette's disease (7) Alzheimers disease, (8) ulcerative colitis and (9) sleep apnea."Nothing to see here, moving on.

Lol.It is not a study about negative health effects of Nicotine.

The author also opines.

The reliability of these effects varies greatly but justifies the search for more therapeutic applications for this interesting compound.

"loads of scientific studies"? Then it should be easy to find one....Ah, here's one:
Intravenous Nicotine and Caffeine: Subjective and Physiological Effects in ....... Abusers
"Comparison of Caffeine and Nicotine.
Inspection of Figs. 1 and2 and post hoc comparisons show that nicotine generally produced greater subjective effects than caffeine. To the extent that these differences reflect real differences in maximal efficacy, this study suggests that nicotine produces much more prominent mood-altering effects than caffeine. However, it is also possible that relatively higher doses of nicotine than caffeine were studied. Post hoc comparisons between the intermediate dose of nicotine and the high dose of caffeine showed no significant differences on most subjective measures. Thus, for purposes of evaluating possible qualitative similarities and differences between caffeine and nicotine, it is most appropriate to compare the intermediate dose of nicotine (1.5 mg/70 kg) with the high dose of caffeine (400 mg/70 kg). Inspection of Figs. 1and 2 shows that both of these doses increased ratings of drug effect, good effect, like drug, high, stimulated, and bad effect. The only scale to show differing effects was rating of rush, which was significantly increased by nicotine, but not caffeine. Figures 1 and 2also show that nicotine had a somewhat faster onset time and time to peak effect than caffeine. Nicotine but not caffeine produced dose-related increases in stimulant identifications, with subjects usually identifying it as being ........ As discussed above, this difference in stimulant identification between caffeine and nicotine might be due to the daily administration of oral caffeine in the present study. Finally, caffeine produced dose-related increases in reports of an unusual smell and/or taste, whereas nicotine produced dose-related increases in reports of blurry vision.

With regard to physiological effects, caffeine and nicotine were similar in that both tended to decrease skin temperature and elevate blood pressure. They differed in that heart rate was decreased by caffeine, but increased by nicotine."

Great way to derive the conclusion that nicotine and caffeine have similar effects by studying drug users who administer caffeine and nicotine intravenously.

 

[markfm]

Tom09 -- Thanks for the link. In human terms, "PVs work." (surprise, surprise... )

 

[nopatch]

I consume caffiene and I enjoy it in my coffee. I consume nicotine, and I enjoy it in my e-cig vapor. Both are stimulants. And to my knowledge, both have a similar effect. Not identical, but similar. If you think that's callous, then we can agree to disagree.

Nobody has a business telling anybody what is good for them.But, if you start recommending coffee consumers to try nicotine "for better results" then there is a problem.
Anyhow i am done with this.

 

[DC2]

So are you suggesting that nicotine is definitely worse than caffeine?

 

[CES]

The Bolded part is exactly my point.All stimulants are not the same.Caffeine's stimulation is not primarliy from Dopamine release, though.Caffeine blocks adenosine receptors tricking the brain to belive you are not exhuasted.
THE BRAIN FROM TOP TO BOTTOM

That's correct- though it doesn't make you "believe" you're not exhausted. By blocking adenosine receptors, caffeine prevents the brain regions involved in initiating sleep from activating or remaining active (at least for a time), which allows the wake centers of the brain to become active. Blocking adenosine receptors also increases the activity of glutamate, ephinephrine and, yes, dopamine in other regions of the nervous system.

I was just pointing out the callousness in the use of nicotine equating it with coffee.I am not saying anything more than that.

The comparison is not whether caffeine and nicotine use the same mechanism to exert their effects. The question is whether they are comparable in term of potential harm to the user.

I don't, and haven't, seen anyone recommending nicotine instead of caffeine. Again, it's about provide a context for the potential level of harm. Nicotine alone is less harmful than cigarettes, and probably not more harmful than caffeine.

 

[Vocalek]

Correct.
Great way to derive the conclusion that nicotine and caffeine have similar effects by studying drug users who administer caffeine and nicotine intravenously.

The RESEARCHERS administered the IV nicotine and caffiene, not the drug abusers.

The aim of the present study was to extend our knowledge about the comparative pharmacology of nicotine and caffeine as stimulant drugs by directly comparing the subjective and physiological effects of intravenous caffeine and nicotine on measures previously shown sensitive to the effects of these drugs as well as ....... (Preston et al., 1993; Jones et al., 1999) in subjects with histories of using tobacco cigarettes, caffeine, and ........ The intravenous route of administration was used because it permits blind administration while producing similar rapid onset of effects.

 

[AlmightyGod]

I got the questionnaire & saliva sample kit for part 2 of this study in the mail today.

 

[rolygate]

I got the questionnaire & saliva sample kit for part 2 of this study in the mail today.

This post is off-topic, isn't it?

 

[AlmightyGod]

Communicating that there even is a part 2 of the study is OT?

 

[rolygate]

AG I did try to show that was a joke by adding a smiley.

Yours is the only on-topic post for pages...

But we don't mind, trying to keep threads on topic here is like King Canute in a tsunami. Anyway, it gives added value when you can go to a thread about a medic's survey, and catch up on the stock market news, the weather, assorted d.rug use and the world economy. Why worry.

 

[AlmightyGod]

AG I did try to show that was a joke by adding a smiley.

Yours is the only on-topic post for pages...

I'm a little slow on the uptake today.

Besides, you should have used a not a .

The package from Geneva was postmarked 09Nov2011, so they are not wasting time compiling follow-up data for the study.

 

[ScottB]

But we don't mind, trying to keep threads on topic here is like King Canute in a tsunami...

Off Topic or not... I'm stealing that analogy.

Might come in handy OUTSIDE!