Tank atty vs rda

[Eric Superczynski]

I have a TM 24 pro. I threw In a pair of Juggernauts just for astetic reasones.
I also have the geekvape mesh pro atty. With some, (most) juices I get a better flavor from from the mesh pro. With the TM24 pro and the Juggernauts I obviously get significant more vape. But my tank atty gives me more flavor. I fear pushing the 24 pro with the Juggernauts past 120-130w just because of the batteries i current have. Is it just the Juggernauts giving me the lower flavor or what? I have other coils, the alian, interlock alian, and the staggered fused Clapton. Is it the coil, our just the cloud chucking RDA o have.

 

[Coolsiggy]

I am not a user of high power setup's...but I have noticed that a mesh atty does have improved flavor over my wound coil 15 to 50 watt coil RBA's, most likely because mesh has such a large surface area. The mesh also consumes more juice which stands to reason.
The best advice I can offer is of the newer mesh RBA's I have I much prefer the Kyln M RTA, easy build and leak resistant.

 

[GOMuniEsq]

There are an awful lot of factors that affect flavor. The pre-manufactured coil assemblies command a premium because those factors have been balanced for your convenience to provide a pleasant experience within the recommended range. With an RBA you can achieve the same or better, but trial-and-error is involved.

Some factors:
Wattage.
Wick density and composition.
Wicking technique.
Type of coil (resistance, weight, surface area, composition).
Power setting.
Power curve or TC.

 

[HigherStateD]

I'm just now venturing into mesh, but have a pair of 2mm ID juggernaut coils in my Drop Dead, and, depending on the flavor, I prefer the drop dead. Part of my issue is the flavors I like taste better to me at a warmer temp, which isn't easy on mesh. I did get some ofrf nexmesh SS316L strips, and did finally get TC working on it. Seems to work well at a TCR of 125 or so. The thing I notice is the lack of mass to the coil makes the ramp so quick and even,, that there is no variation of flavor produced as the coil heats. Might just be placebo, but I notice the mesh flavor seems to be flatter.

 

[Coolsiggy]

I'm just now venturing into mesh, but have a pair of 2mm ID juggernaut coils in my Drop Dead, and, depending on the flavor, I prefer the drop dead. Part of my issue is the flavors I like taste better to me at a warmer temp, which isn't easy on mesh. I did get some ofrf nexmesh SS316L strips, and did finally get TC working on it. Seems to work well at a TCR of 125 or so. The thing I notice is the lack of mass to the coil makes the ramp so quick and even,, that there is no variation of flavor produced as the coil heats. Might just be placebo, but I notice the mesh flavor seems to be flatter.

On TC I have flavor drop after about 15 ml of juice on SS wire and about 25 ml with mesh. This is possibly related to the juice style, and temps used that gunk's the coil affecting coil resistance, lately I have switched to power mode....seems more consistent.

 

[HigherStateD]

On TC I have flavor drop after about 15 ml of juice on SS wire and about 25 ml with mesh. This is possibly related to the juice style, and temps used that gunk's the coil affecting coil resistance, lately I have switched to power mode....seems more consistent.

Juice, possibly. Mine is almost all single flavor juice, and mostly fruit with a little RY 1 or 3, but my temps are usually in the 430-450° range. I get flavor drop maybe after 120-180mL, but the rayon begi s to sag long before that becomes an issue. I usually get a refluff or 2 from each wick, but after that, the spitback and metallic taste are more problematic.

 

[Coolsiggy]

Juice, possibly. Mine is almost all single flavor juice, and mostly fruit with a little RY 1 or 3, but my temps are usually in the 430-450° range. I get flavor drop maybe after 120-180mL, but the rayon begi s to sag long before that becomes an issue. I usually get a refluff or 2 from each wick, but after that, the spitback and metallic taste are more problematic.

I guess vape style has much to do...I usually start at 400f and ramp to 430f, any higher and it creates a burnt flavor...I like a cooler vape....once the gunk develops it's all down hill. Spaced coils seems to survive better then tight wraps....so many variables.

 

[Coolsiggy]

I did get some ofrf nexmesh SS316L strips, and did finally get TC working on it. Seems to work well at a TCR of 125 or so.

Just a point about TCR....this value is a reference value and can/will vary with the design of different mod boards....mine go from.089 to 125. I start with a clean atty and go to each mod, set the TCR to what I believe is 420f...normally use a DNA board as reference. A high TCR setting will normally equal a warmer result. Your 120 setting suggests a Smok board.

 

[Zaryk]

I have a TM 24 pro. I threw In a pair of Juggernauts just for astetic reasones.
I also have the geekvape mesh pro atty. With some, (most) juices I get a better flavor from from the mesh pro. With the TM24 pro and the Juggernauts I obviously get significant more vape. But my tank atty gives me more flavor. I fear pushing the 24 pro with the Juggernauts past 120-130w just because of the batteries i current have. Is it just the Juggernauts giving me the lower flavor or what? I have other coils, the alian, interlock alian, and the staggered fused Clapton. Is it the coil, our just the cloud chucking RDA o have.

Mesh tanks and RDAs are much easier to build on right since there is only one way to place the coil. The airflow is already optimized for that default coil position. With a standard coil RDA you need to learn exactly where the coil should be placed in correlation to the airflow, and what size coil works best for that particular RDA. It just takes a bit more work and some trial and error to hit that sweet spot.

I use low mass fused claptons in my RDAs. I have used the fancier coils that look cool, but they rarely do anything more than a well done low mass fused clapton. I make mine with 28g cores and 40g wrap. Really fast ramp up and no need to pump the watts up really high to get them to work right.

 

[HigherStateD]

Just a point about TCR....this value is a reference value and can/will vary with the design of different mod boards....mine go from.089 to 125. I start with a clean atty and go to each mod, set the TCR to what I believe is 420f...normally use a DNA board as reference. A high TCR setting will normally equal a warmer result. Your 120 setting suggests a Smok board.

It's nuvonton, as I said, Arctic fox. My topsides use similar values for each atty. The Ofrf as mesh is in the 125 range, and the dual juggernaut, also ss316, uses a value of 60. A fairly simple, say, a Clapton, usually falls in the 80-112 range.
The way I reach my determination of he coefficient is by setting the temp to 600, then lowering the TCR until the wires no longer radiate any glow, but still show a change toward the orange/red end of the spectrum. Not scientific or precise, but accurate enough for my needs.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Temperature Coefficient of Resistance is a static value based on the metal we use. The value indicates how much the metal rises in resistance for every +1 °C, either from above 20°C or 0°C – the later needs to be defined by the metallurgist, but when it comes to vaping coils, it rarely is.

Stainless Steel with a TCR value of 0.00088 means its resistance increases by 0.00088 ohms for every +1°C. It does not matter if it is mesh, a regular coil or some fancy fused Clapton type coil, the TCR value of the metal does not change.

The problem with vaping coils/mesh, is many manufactures do not disclose what the true TCR value is, leaving us to guess. Alloys such as Stainless Steel vary in materials which can mean a vast difference in true TCR values. SS316L can very between 0.00087 to 0.001. Purer metals such as Titanium and Nickel employ a more consistent value.

Another issue is many device manufactures shorten the value – probably due to screen real estate, thus complicating the matter even further. Geekvape as an example uses a range between 010 to 5000…so where does a true TCR value of 0.00088 fit into that?

Calculating TCR is straight forward. Delta Temperature = (Delta Resistance - Reference Resistance)/(TCR Value x Reference Resistance) + Reference Temperature. With this equation one can work backwards and calculate the Delta Resistance based on a Delta Temperature.

Using the incorrect TCR value means we are not hitting our target temperature, even if we achieve a preferred vape. If our prescribed TCR is less than the true TCR value of the metal, you will exceed your goal temperature. If our prescribed value is greater than the true TCR value you will fall short of your goal temperature.

Using the incorrect TCR value could also mean the device does not modulate power properly, leading to dry hits.

With the ability to view the live resistance (not all devices allow this) we can at least perform the math with the above equation to see what prescribed value may or may not work.

@HigherStateD – If you are using SS316L, which is what OFRF claims their mesh strips are, I have never seen SS316L with a true TCR value that high. Again, because SS316L is an alloy, it’s true value does vary, but never seen it above 0.001. Steam Engine gives a value of 0.00087, Zivipf (a popular wire supplier) gives a value of 0.001 (although indicated by 100). And Evolv, even though they use TFR (Temperature Factor of Resistivity) and not TCR, is closer to 0.001

 

[HigherStateD]

@Punk In Drublic yeah, the TCR for that mesh is high to my taste also, but I will wait to need a rewick to make sure to connection is proper. A loose connection could easily cause such an issue. I should also fire up the monitor software for Arctic fox and log some to get actual data, rather than just my seat of the pants dynamometer.
I do, however find that the TCR value I end up using can vary greatly, even with the same alloy, depending on coil configuration, such as contact or spaced.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

@Punk In Drublic yeah, the TCR for that mesh is high to my taste also, but I will wait to need a rewick to make sure to connection is proper. A loose connection could easily cause such an issue. I should also fire up the monitor software for Arctic fox and log some to get actual data, rather than just my seat of the pants dynamometer.
I do, however find that the TCR value I end up using can vary greatly, even with the same alloy, depending on coil configuration, such as contact or spaced.

The point of my post was to indicate the TCR of metal does not change. SS316L that has a true TCR value of 0.00088 will remain 0.00088 regardless if the metal is formed into mesh, a Clapton or a spaced coil. This is the physics behind Temperature Coefficient of Resistance. By using a different TCR value we are not hitting our target temperatures which could be of vast margins.

You entered a TCR value of 125, or 0.00125 and a goal temperature of 221°C (430°F). With a 0.15ohm coil, you are telling the device to not allow the resistance of the coil to exceed 0.186 ohms. This is now hard coded into the device and it will keep applying power until 0.186 ohms is met, then it will begin to modulate.

0.00125 is not a true value of SS316L. The composition of the metal will not allow it to increase by that amount of resistance for every +1°C. It’s impossible! I understand we do not know the true values unless noted by the manufacture, but lets use a common medium for SS316L at 0.0009 for the sake of example. A 0.15 ohm coil, with a TCR value of 0.0009 and a rise in resistance to 0.186 ohms (based on your earlier values) equates to a coil that is reaching 297°C or 566°F. If your metals true value is 0.0009, then 297°C is its true temperature – assuming you are reaching 0.186 ohms which is what the device is trying to accomplish. That is a significant difference to what you entered.

Temperature is nothing more than a predicted calculation based on the accuracy of the TCR value.

- "seat of the pants dynamometer." - well put

 

[HigherStateD]

@Punk In Drublic couldn't agree more. My precision in temp isn't as much a factor to me as taste and feel.
I do know my frenzy claims to do TC, and, at the highest setting , is a warmer vape than what I achieve across all my atties, regardless of which mod it's on, with similar TCR values for each coil. I may not be precisely hitting my target temp, but the result to my senses is more than acceptable. Come June I may have income to devote to a more scientific approach, but for now, good enough is good enough.

 

[greek mule]

If our prescribed TCR is less than the true TCR value of the metal, you will exceed your goal temperature. If our prescribed value is greater than the true TCR value you will fall short of your goal temperature.

Actually the contrary happens.
If TCR value you set is higher than actual,dry hit city.. If lower,you'll get a "Temperature Protection" display soon after you hit the fire button.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Actually the contrary happens.
If TCR value you set is higher than actual,dry hit city.. If lower,you'll get a "Temperature Protection" display soon after you hit the fire button.

Dry hits are a result of the device not modulating power sufficiently. Assuming no faults with the device, entering a TCR value and goal temperature, you are telling the device to not allow resistance to exceed the calculated delta resistance based on the entered values. Even with an incorrect TCR value, the coil resistance can still hit that delta resistance, therefore the device will still modulate power. HOWEVER!!! If the delta resistance is not reached when the wicks are saturated, the device will continue to apply full prescribed power even when the wicks are drying out, resulting in a dry hit. An incorrect TCR value could be the cause of this, but so can an incorrect temperature setting. Again, the importance of being able to see the live resistance can help mitigate this.

Temperature Protection error needs to be implemented into the device. Not all of my devices have such feature. DNA’s do, will assume Arctic Fox FW has something similar. That said, entering a lower than true TCR value means the true coil temperature is not reached. You enter a TCR value of 0.00088 and a goal temperature of 230°C with a 0.5 ohm coil – you are telling the device to not allow resistance to exceed 0.590 ohms. If the true TCR value is 0.001, a delta resistance of 0.590 ohms with the same coil results in a true temperature of 205°C. This may result in a crappy vape, but I doubt this would trigger a temp protect error on a DNA. Even if we went to extremes, such as using a low SS TCR value with a Titanium coil that has a very high true TCR value, I doubt temp protect would be triggered. Using the above 0.5 ohm coil as an example, a delta resistance of 0.590 ohms with Titanium would result in a coil temperature of only 75°C.

Now if you did the opposite, such as use a Titanium TCR value for a SS316L coil, then ya, I could see a temperature protect error being triggered. Using the same 0.5 ohm coil and a goal of 230°C, a Titanium TCR value of 0.0036 would result in a delta resistance of 0.875 ohms. If the coils true TCR value is 0.001, a delta resistance of 0.875 ohms would result 775°C. An extreme example but one that does display how temp protect error could be triggered.

 

[mimöschen]

Juggernauts suck imo. They may look cool, but too much coil surface is not in touch with the cotton, so you need more power for no actual gain.

Mesh is a very efficient coil type and thus produces lots of vapor and very good flavor even at lower wattages, but it's tremendously lacking in the warmth department imo.
Ymmv.

 

[Eskie]

Dry hits are a result of the device not modulating power sufficiently. Assuming no faults with the device, entering a TCR value and goal temperature, you are telling the device to not allow resistance to exceed the calculated delta resistance based on the entered values. Even with an incorrect TCR value, the coil resistance can still hit that delta resistance, therefore the device will still modulate power. HOWEVER!!! If the delta resistance is not reached when the wicks are saturated, the device will continue to apply full prescribed power even when the wicks are drying out, resulting in a dry hit. An incorrect TCR value could be the cause of this, but so can an incorrect temperature setting. Again, the importance of being able to see the live resistance can help mitigate this.

Temperature Protection error needs to be implemented into the device. Not all of my devices have such feature. DNA’s do, will assume Arctic Fox FW has something similar. That said, entering a lower than true TCR value means the true coil temperature is not reached. You enter a TCR value of 0.00088 and a goal temperature of 230°C with a 0.5 ohm coil – you are telling the device to not allow resistance to exceed 0.590 ohms. If the true TCR value is 0.001, a delta resistance of 0.590 ohms with the same coil results in a true temperature of 205°C. This may result in a crappy vape, but I doubt this would trigger a temp protect error on a DNA. Even if we went to extremes, such as using a low SS TCR value with a Titanium coil that has a very high true TCR value, I doubt temp protect would be triggered. Using the above 0.5 ohm coil as an example, a delta resistance of 0.590 ohms with Titanium would result in a coil temperature of only 75°C.

Now if you did the opposite, such as use a Titanium TCR value for a SS316L coil, then ya, I could see a temperature protect error being triggered. Using the same 0.5 ohm coil and a goal of 230°C, a Titanium TCR value of 0.0036 would result in a delta resistance of 0.875 ohms. If the coils true TCR value is 0.001, a delta resistance of 0.875 ohms would result 775°C. An extreme example but one that does display how temp protect error could be triggered.

To clarify, temp protect really isn’t an error. It means the target temp was reached and the mod is not allowing the temp to be exceeded. On a DNA mod it’s less useful if you set up your profiles using eScribe as you can see the temp curve reach the set value and maintain that level regardless how long your draw is. When you don’t have real time monitoring like eScribe or Arctic Fox, temp protection is pretty much the only way you know the mod with the settings you chose is reaching the temp you selected.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Actually the contrary happens.

LOL…re-read my earlier post. Yes, I got that backwards. Lower than true TCR would result in a lower true coil temp. Higher than true TCR would result in a higher true coil temp.

 

[Coolsiggy]

Hmmm...so Mrs Ohm tells Mr Watt what to do based how Mrs Ohm feels about the coil we use and calls it temperature control....but can we trust Mrs Ohm.